Merged Senate Report on CIA Torture Program

Border Reiver said:
The last war fought on US soil were the Indian Wars where the First Nations were reviled for their practice of ritual torture. The threat of these nations to the Republic was fairly minimal and the US Army seemed to do a fairly good job of winning without torture. The US military has managed to fight and win, or at least hold to a draw (discounting the loss of Vietnam) pretty much every conflict it has fought without resorting to torture (because the use of torture has become public every conflict it has been used in).
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I just had to highlight this claim because of its exquisite speciousness. The only way you could know that it's true (and it might very well be true) is for it to be the case that torture has been used and publicly exposed in every conflict to which the US has been a party. But that would undermine your point (to the extent you have one), wouldn't it?
 
Upchurch said:
Yes, I'm sure torture works as a punishment, but that isn't really on topic.
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When you say it "works" as a punishment, what do you mean exactly? Are you saying something interesting, like you think it has a deterrent effect, or are you saying something utterly vapid like you believe it causes pain as intended?
 
WA
sunmaster14 said:
When you say it "works" as a punishment, what do you mean exactly? Are you saying something interesting, like you think it has a deterrent effect, or are you saying something utterly vapid like you believe it causes pain as intended?
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:rolleyes:

I was answering the question I was asked.
 
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jimbob said:
I'll just add that I in this example I was actually thinking of it from an amoral viewpoint. There is an awful lot of utterly spurious misinformation to confuse any agency working with the information. I'd argue that it is significantly more "contaminated" than from conventional interrogation techniques.
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Continuing Upchurch's signal-to-noise analogy, I'm not as impressed as you are by the risk of adding resource-wasting noise to a signal amounting to 20% of signal strength. Especially since there was likely a plethora of idle resources. And of course, resources were probably being invested in noise filtering as well.
 
sunmaster14 said:
Continuing Upchurch's signal-to-noise analogy, I'm not as impressed as you are by the risk of adding resource-wasting noise to a signal amounting to 20% of signal strength. Especially since there was likely a plethora of idle resources. And of course, resources were probably being invested in noise filtering as well.
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Really? You think there are just people sitting around waiting for Jack Bauer to call in with info to verify?

eta: But why bother wasting extra resources to make up for torture's inadequacies when there are better techniques that don't require the waste?
 
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Frozenwolf150 said:
In other words, you have no problem believing things without evidence. Gotcha.
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Not much evidence on this one.

In other words, you base your beliefs on things you admit you don't know, and are comfortable with your lack of knowledge. Gotcha.
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Like you basing your beliefs on non evidence?

That's rich, given your response to my request for evidence.
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Again, I'm mocking this forums incessant asking of proof, common sense is in short supply.

You think the military is infallible, flawless, and beyond reproach?
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No

Even when it kills innocent civilians, or in this case, uses torture? Your argument isn't just circular, it's spiraling down the toilet.
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You seem to not like the military much, is this true?
 
jimbob said:
logger, 20% of the detainees were innocent and had simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Others would have been guilty but ignorant footsoldiers. Both groups would talk but, knowing nothing of interest would have to invent something.
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Evidence please?
 
tsig said:
A person strapped to a board is helpless.
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I would not define a person who kills innocence as helpless even strapped to a board.

Kids being cut in half by these monsters are the helpless ones, wouldn't you say?
 
Senerio: Michele Obama and thier two daughters are kidnapped by ISIS in Washington, D. C. During the event two ISIS terrorists are captured.

The ISIS terrorists holding the Obama family gives President Obama 24 hours to surrender the USA or they will behead all the captives.

President Obama does:
1. Orders the CIA to use any measures on the captive ISIS to help rescue his family.
2. Orders the CIA to treat the ISIS captives as any other POW.
3. Goes golfing.
 
DDWW said:
Senerio: Michele Obama and thier two daughters are kidnapped by ISIS in Washington, D. C. During the event two ISIS terrorists are captured.

The ISIS terrorists holding the Obama family gives President Obama 24 hours to surrender the USA or they will behead all the captives.

President Obama does:
1. Orders the CIA to use any measures on the captive ISIS to help rescue his family.
2. Orders the CIA to treat the ISIS captives as any other POW.
3. Goes golfing.
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Of course he goes golfing because he's secure in the knowledge that Jack Bauer is on the job!
 
DDWW said:
Senerio: Michele Obama and thier two daughters are kidnapped by ISIS in Washington, D. C. During the event two ISIS terrorists are captured.

The ISIS terrorists holding the Obama family gives President Obama 24 hours to surrender the USA or they will behead all the captives.

President Obama does:
1. Orders the CIA to use any measures on the captive ISIS to help rescue his family.
2. Orders the CIA to treat the ISIS captives as any other POW.
3. Goes golfing.
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If Michelle Obama and kids were kidnapped, Obama would doing a lot of beheading himself, mostly of Secret Service agents.
 
DDWW said:
Senerio: Michele Obama and thier two daughters are kidnapped by ISIS in Washington, D. C. During the event two ISIS terrorists are captured.

The ISIS terrorists holding the Obama family gives President Obama 24 hours to surrender the USA or they will behead all the captives.

President Obama does:
1. Orders the CIA to use any measures on the captive ISIS to help rescue his family.
2. Orders the CIA to treat the ISIS captives as any other POW.
3. Goes golfing.
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If your innocent mother is rounded up with a group of ISIS terrorists, would you approve water boarding the entire group or would you post dumb ass questions on an Internet forum.
 
DavidJames said:
If your innocent mother is rounded up with a group of ISIS terrorists, would you approve water boarding the entire group or would you post dumb ass questions on an Internet forum.
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Water boarding approved! Plus, red is positive, black is negative. My mother is dead. Plus would never be mistaken for an ISIS terrorist.

Go right now to your wife and/ or children and tell them to their face that if they were captured and we're going to be beheaded that you would not want any "extreme measures" used to save them.
 
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DDWW said:
Go right now to your wife and/ or children and tell them to their face that if they were captured and we're going to be beheaded that you would not want any "extreme measures" used to save them.
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Appeal to emotion all you like, there is no evidence that "extreme measures" would help them at all. The evidence, to date, shows quite the opposite.

To be more accurate, you should go right now and tell your wife and/or children and tell them right to their face that if they were captured were going to be beheaded, that you would rather hurt and torture people than use the most effective ways to save them.
 
I would be happy to authorize the experts to use any measure they want. Keep ignoring that water boarding did provide good intelligence....just you don't like the source of that.
 
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