The stupid explodes: obesity now a disability

[Shiner]

I think it is flawed, not just the research, but the way you are constructing the argument. I only read the first study you posted, and it wasn't so much a study as a summation of ideas in a sociology context. There was no actual data presented, no blinding or even a good definition of what "stigmatizing" was supposed to mean. The conclusion was that it might be "psychologically harmful" and not help in weight loss, doesn't tell us anything anyhow, unless we are involved in treating the obese. I also found comparisons to AIDS and tuberculosis particularly off, but I understand that obesity is being presented as a disease condition - something which itself has a built-in bias.



Blaming and shaming are being misconstrued. They aren't meant to "achieve" anything at all. They are an expression of disgust at a condition that is allowed to fester, an emotional reaction to the apparent state of affairs. If the notion of an "obesogenic" society is valid, then surely a willingness to reject the status quo would also be part of that. Imagine the difference if a restaurant refused to serve someone because they didn't want to contribute to an ongoing weight problem.

We do not blame people for getting sick. We do blame people for pursuing and accepting their sickness, refusing to cure it, and then claiming they are disabled because of it. We also don't serve alcohol to people who are already drunk, nor encourage addicts to take drugs.

Thank you.

QFT.

 

[cullennz]

I'm useless at this but I'll try cut it down to descriptions minus 18 paragraphs.

Stigmatising is to assume people are part of a concepted group.

Vilification is to hassle them about it.

Probably badly worded

 

[cullennz]

Should add because you dont like thestigmatised group

 

[bit_pattern]

I think it is flawed, not just the research, but the way you are constructing the argument. I only read the first study you posted, and it wasn't so much a study as a summation of ideas in a sociology context. There was no actual data presented, no blinding or even a good definition of what "stigmatizing" was supposed to mean. The conclusion was that it might be "psychologically harmful" and not help in weight loss, doesn't tell us anything anyhow, unless we are involved in treating the obese. I also found comparisons to AIDS and tuberculosis particularly off, but I understand that obesity is being presented as a disease condition - something which itself has a built-in bias.

Well, it sure is great that we're at least talking about evidence now and not just feelings. I'm sure they're all valid criticisms of that single paper. However, you'll note my argument related to the vast body of evidence. As I said, I'm prepared to accept that it's not the only body of evidence on whether or not shame is an effective motivator. And since both yourself and Shiner have made that actual claim (or at least strongly implied that it is) then the burden is on you to show that there is an alternative body of evidence that shows shame is a motivating emotion.

Blaming and shaming are being misconstrued. They aren't meant to "achieve" anything at all. They are an expression of disgust at a condition that is allowed to fester, an emotional reaction to the apparent state of affairs

Well that's just not true. Both yourself and Shiner have implied through your arguments that shame is an effective motivator. I have been responding to statements or question posed. This is just you shifting the goalposts to suit the circumstances.

E.g.

You: The difference is whether or not "shaming" has an escape - whether I can alter my behavior to mitigate it. If I cannot - as in something like race - then it's pointless. If I can, as in obesity, then it might.

Shiner: If you feel 'good' about being obese, where is the motivation to change?

There is a clear implication here that feeling shame can motivate people. Well, from my understanding of the evidence that isn't true. If you guys disagree then you should just cite some evidence beyond your own feelings that shows that it might be true.

It's pretty simple really.

If the notion of an "obesogenic" society is valid, then surely a willingness to reject the status quo would also be part of that. Imagine the difference if a restaurant refused to serve someone because they didn't want to contribute to an ongoing weight problem.

Well considering my reference to the supposed obesogenic environment spoke about structural issues versus personal agency, I don't think the notion of challenging the status quo of an individual's choice is particularly relevant. Challenging the structural status quo would mean challenging the structures that allow obesity to thrive, e.g a food industry that markets calorie-dense foodstuffs as "healthy", or an advertising industry that is allowed to market calorie-dense foodstuff to children without impunity etc..

We do not blame people for getting sick. We do blame people for pursuing and accepting their sickness, refusing to cure it, and then claiming they are disabled because of it. We also don't serve alcohol to people who are already drunk, nor encourage addicts to take drugs.

I take issue with that final sentence. We have a multi-billion dollar industry dedicated to doing exactly that, in the form of junk food advertising. Then there's the alcohol industry - do you think alcohol advertising doesn't encourage people dependent on alcohol to continue drinking?

As for the rest of it, please allow me to bring the discussion back to the point I have been making all along: do you think that "blaming", or "shaming" or any other form of negative reinforcement is an effective means of encouraging or motivating individuals to seek intervention for their problems and, if so, can you please cite the evidence that supports your feelings?

 

[bit_pattern]

Nice strawman. At no stage have I made any claim in that regard.

My position from the start has been consistent - if someone is obese, I don't care but I object strenuously to it being made my problem.

Since the entire post is related to stigmatisation and that has nothing to do with me, I think we're done. Your links have nothing not already covered.

You haven't tried to come up with any solutions other than knocking down a strawman nobody has espoused.

Fine by me.

Lulwut? I was involved in a discussion that had diverged from what you have been talking about, then you interjected on a point that was not directed at you or anything you had said. I was explaining the context of what I was discussing because your retort seemed not to be taking that into account and now you think I was saying that it was an argument you were making?

As for solutions, I'll just repeat what I said the first time and which you conveniently ignored so that you could have a tanty and accuse me of making a strawman argument: I am not a public health policy expert. I don't know what the solution is. However, when faced with big issues that I don't understand my first impulse is to have a look at what the relevant literature says so as to get an idea of what the actual experts are saying. What I try to avoid doing is making sweeping assumptions based on my feelings which seems to me to be all anyone else in this thread is doing.

 

[bit_pattern]

Cullennz seems to be able to tell the difference between stigmatize and villify.

You seem to want them to mean the same thing.

You mean the guy who says that "fatties" are "stupid" and "lazy"?

And, no, the vilification argument is a strawman that he tried to introduce into the argument. I am quite comfortable with my interpretation of stigma.

 

[bit_pattern]

Yeah, but they get benefits so that kind of stigmatisation is fine, I presume.

Well, no, labelling someone as "disabled" is fine if the condition they suffer actually disables them. It's not rocket science. Not every obese person is disabled, but in the instances where they are disabled then I really don't see the problem.

 

[cullennz]

I'm not the one labelling people disabelled like some ambulance at the bottom of a cliff big pattern.

How about dealing with the cause?

 

[marplots]

Well, it sure is great that we're at least talking about evidence now and not just feelings. I'm sure they're all valid criticisms of that single paper. However, you'll note my argument related to the vast body of evidence. As I said, I'm prepared to accept that it's not the only body of evidence on whether or not shame is an effective motivator. And since both yourself and Shiner have made that actual claim (or at least strongly implied that it is) then the burden is on you to show that there is an alternative body of evidence that shows shame is a motivating emotion.

Well that's just not true. Both yourself and Shiner have implied through your arguments that shame is an effective motivator. I have been responding to statements or question posed. This is just you shifting the goalposts to suit the circumstances.

E.g.

You: The difference is whether or not "shaming" has an escape - whether I can alter my behavior to mitigate it. If I cannot - as in something like race - then it's pointless. If I can, as in obesity, then it might.

I have stated how shame motivates me. I am not recommending it as broad public policy, if for no other reason than it can't be willed into or out of existence. If someone feels ashamed of their weight and the society they live in views obesity as a shameful thing, there's not much public policy is going to do to fix that.

 

[marplots]

As for the rest of it, please allow me to bring the discussion back to the point I have been making all along: do you think that "blaming", or "shaming" or any other form of negative reinforcement is an effective means of encouraging or motivating individuals to seek intervention for their problems and, if so, can you please cite the evidence that supports your feelings?

I would like to answer this question, but I haven't heard a good definition of what you mean by blaming or shaming. For example, is merely recognizing that someone is obese (BMI over 30) a type of shaming? Do I need to say something like, "Hey, you ought to skip desert?"

And blaming seems easier to address, except I'm unclear whether you mean the weight gain is outside of someone's control - as for example an infection might be - or whether you mean that a failure to seek treatment shows some character flaw or other.

 

[marplots]

I won't claim anything based on this paper, but I wanted to note that at least some research suggests a benefit to pressuring someone about their weight.

Abstract:
Experiences of obesity stigmatization and fear of fat, body image and self-esteem, were examined in relation to weight loss and weight maintenance. Participants in obesity treatment (N = 185) with more stigmatizing experiences had poorer body image and greater fear of fat. Higher initial BMI, more stigmatizing experiences, lower body dissatisfaction and greater fear of fat predicted greater weight loss. Higher initial BMI and more stigmatizing experiences predicted greater weight maintenance after six months in treatment. These findings suggest that despite the negative psychological correlates of stigmatization, experience and fear of obesity's negative consequences may also be associated with improved treatment outcome.

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19237486

 

[bit_pattern]

I have stated how shame motivates me. I am not recommending it as broad public policy, if for no other reason than it can't be willed into or out of existence. If someone feels ashamed of their weight and the society they live in views obesity as a shameful thing, there's not much public policy is going to do to fix that.

I'm still interested in knowing what an atheist is doing in church in the first place

But, there are plenty of examples where behaviours that were considered shameful have been destigmatised at east in part due to public policy responses. Sexuality springs to mind. And before you say that's a false analogy because of the supposed choice aspect of obesity, I speak here only about the ability of society to shift perceptions on what is and what isn't shameful.

 

[bit_pattern]

I won't claim anything based on this paper, but I wanted to note that at least some research suggests a benefit to pressuring someone about their weight.

Abstract:
Experiences of obesity stigmatization and fear of fat, body image and self-esteem, were examined in relation to weight loss and weight maintenance. Participants in obesity treatment (N = 185) with more stigmatizing experiences had poorer body image and greater fear of fat. Higher initial BMI, more stigmatizing experiences, lower body dissatisfaction and greater fear of fat predicted greater weight loss. Higher initial BMI and more stigmatizing experiences predicted greater weight maintenance after six months in treatment. These findings suggest that despite the negative psychological correlates of stigmatization, experience and fear of obesity's negative consequences may also be associated with improved treatment outcome.

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19237486

Now that's what I'm talking about, well done, I have other things to do right at the minute but I'll definitely come back to this clear line of evidence. I'm sure it will make for some interesting reading and lively debate.

 

[The Atheist]

As for solutions, I'll just repeat what I said the first time and which you conveniently ignored so that you could have a tanty...

I'd love to discuss your reading comprehension skills, but since most of the points you've failed to make to me don't relate to anything I've said, I think discussion is looking increasingly pointless.

Thankfully, there are participants in the thread who are capable of responding sensibly. A "tanty" ? Seriously? Are you a kindergarten teacher?

I am not a public health policy expert. I don't know what the solution is.

That's an ironic stance.

You have spent half a dozen pages saying 'THAT DOESN'T WORK!!11!"

Now, "I don't know?"

Maybe the reason kids in the 1950s, '60s & '70s very rarely were allowed to get fat was because parents had some feelings for their kids and didn't want them to get bullied for being the fat kid - and if you didn't see that when you went to school, then you must be Biafran or homeschooled.

So, after all the bleating about evidence - continued below - you admit you are operating from a purely emotional perspective yourself.

Sheesh.

Not a "tanty" by the way. Just an observation.

However, when faced with big issues that I don't understand my first impulse is to have a look at what the relevant literature says so as to get an idea of what the actual experts are saying. What I try to avoid doing is making sweeping assumptions based on my feelings which seems to me to be all anyone else in this thread is doing.

When, as explained intimately above, that is exactly what you've been doing.

Seriously, what if shunning fat people is the best thing to do?

What if fat people realising they replused and upset other people simply by being fat was a motivation not to be? Have you ever sat next to some enormous person on a plane? Samoa Airlines got so sick of it they charge passengers by the kilo.

How about the humiliation a kid feels at school when the kid is in the dad's piggyback race and the dad is too fat to compete? I see that stuff going on all the damned time.

Maybe if the fat dad realised what he was doing to his kid, the fat sod might shut his mouth for a few minutes? Back in the '70s when I was an employee, I had two of my grossly fat bosses croak from heart attacks leaving young kids behind. I admit my emotional perspective may be skewed as a result, but I can't help thinking that maybe if, at the start, I'd have said to the two hippos - "You dumb &^%#%! You are going to leave a young widow and kids, stop shoving that crap in your face!"... maybe, just maybe, one of them might have thought about it for a minute.

Look, as I've typed this out, I realise I should be thanking you.

I've always been anti fat-shaming and wrote a scathing piece on Joan Rivers when she had Adele on about being bloated. Yet, I note with interest that Adele appears to have lost a whole lot of weight since then.

I now believe I was wrong. I think it's time we gave serious fat-shaming a go. There is clearly no evidence it doesn't work, because fat-shaming has been included in bigotry and hate speech to the extent that I was but one of the lowliest of millions of voices vilifying Rivers. Fat-shaming is almost as bad as gay-hate!

What if that's the moral of this entire story?

That by appeasing people's fat teeth, we've created a generation where Adele is admired for her steel in appearing in public with heavy cellulite? Where "plus models"are admirable instead of on the treadmill?

Have we allowed a generation of girls to become obese to the point of infertility by being scared of them creating eating disorders if we point out that snowflake has a bit of a spare tyre?

 

[The Atheist]

Participants in obesity treatment (N = 185) with more stigmatizing experiences had poorer body image and greater fear of fat. Higher initial BMI, more stigmatizing experiences, lower body dissatisfaction and greater fear of fat predicted greater weight loss. Higher initial BMI and more stigmatizing experiences predicted greater weight maintenance after six months in treatment. These findings suggest that despite the negative psychological correlates of stigmatization, experience and fear of obesity's negative consequences may also be associated with improved treatment outcome.

Well, well, well.

You posted that while I was composing my emotive load of crap.

Well played.

Possibly even more likely to reinforce those negative feelings is we can tie their kids into it? "Your children are ashamed of you." might be my new catch-cry at fat parents.

 

[Shiner]

*sigh*

Nothing else to say really.

"You're children are ashamed of you" comes up a lot as a motivator on 'The Biggest Loser'.

It may be worded differently, but the context is the same.

I'm pretty sure the big cash prize is a little motivating too.

And just another subtle mention of reading comprehension. Take note of question marks. Interpreting a question as an implication is fine, but turning it into a statement to argue against is pointless. Much less effort and invention are required when you simply answer the question. It's how discussions are supposed to work, AFAIK.

 

[cullennz]

So if we bring this down to a philisophecal level.

One lot think labelling people who are obese for their own issues disabled is good as it doesnt hurt their feelings.

And on the other like me think they should be taughr not to eat so much crap, or their kids qill end up being the same thing While avoiding vilifying them

 

[Shiner]

So if we bring this down to a philisophecal level.

One lot think labelling people who are obese for their own issues disabled is good as it doesnt hurt their feelings.

And on the other like me think they should be taughr not to eat so much crap, or their kids qill end up being the same thing While avoiding vilifying them

Fail.

 

[cullennz]

Can I ask why?

 

[marplots]

I'm still interested in knowing what an atheist is doing in church in the first place

Occasional marital obligation - my wife's a Baptist.

But, there are plenty of examples where behaviours that were considered shameful have been destigmatised at east in part due to public policy responses. Sexuality springs to mind. And before you say that's a false analogy because of the supposed choice aspect of obesity, I speak here only about the ability of society to shift perceptions on what is and what isn't shameful.

That's an interesting, and I think open question. Whether stigmatization (or lack thereof) is driven by willed public policy choices or whether those policies are themselves driven by a kind of evolutionary gestalt in the form of emerging trends.

The paper you cited claimed that stigmatization of obesity had increased over the last decade (I think, but correct me if I'm misremembering). I tend to think the mechanism is more grassroots than driven by either science or policy decisions. But that's just a guess.

What did you have in mind to address the public's misconceptions about obesity?