The stupid explodes: obesity now a disability

[sir drinks-a-lot]

IMO there's a strong analogy between those who can't control themselves and overeat and those who can't control themselves and overspend. It seems like most of us would like to cram our faces full of ice cream and pie and also to spend every dollar we earn and then some. It takes discipline and practice to learn to keep these impulses under control.

 

[bit_pattern]

IMO there's a strong analogy between those who can't control themselves and overeat and those who can't control themselves and overspend.

Is there? Can you please cite the research establishing such a correlation upon which your opinion is founded? Or are you just imagineering scenarios to try and make this a salvo in your country's ideological culture wars?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Is there? Can you please cite the research establishing such a correlation upon which your opinion is founded? Or are you just imagineering scenarios to try and make this a salvo in your country's ideological culture wars?

I pretty much spelled it out in my previous post. But you'd probably be better off brushing up on logical fallacies as you've just commited another one.

 

[The Atheist]

If I am honest, my first reaction when I see an obese or morbidly obese person is highly judgemental. It is a physical repulsion. However, as I am a scientist, I am also aware that the vast majority of evidence suggests that blaming the individual is really fruitless and potentially harmful.

That is me in my avatar. I have been a little bit overweight and had to lose 20 lbs more than once, and it is difficult, and I know what I am doing.

Lately, I am loving the running, I am aiming to be able to do a 10 km in 40-50 min. As an aside, I feel sorry for people (overweight/obese from a young age) who have never been able to experience that rush of a runner's high, when you feel like you are float/flying through your run.

Considering that the trend in humanity is to being overweight or obese, there is obviously something going on that is far greater than individual will power.

We are fighting our evolved instincts to pile on fat to survive, because until quite recently, dieing of starvation was not that uncommon.

We also know that most people are never going to recover from obesity and morbid obesity, and if they lose the weight, they will probably put it back on within 5 years.

We really need to come up with a new game plan as everything we have tried so far really isn't working.

Excellent, thoughtful post, thanks!

You are quite correct that no present action is helping, but whatever the answer is, I'm confident making other people pay for it isn't one of the options.

 

[phiwum]

Muse: I'd love to know the girth of people defending obesity as a lifestyle choice, but then I might just be a cynical old git.

You do know what the ad hominem fallacy is, yes?

 

[qayak]

When she stopped swinging the hammer, did she get better? You know, how someone who stops stuffing their fat face will lose weight?

Yup. No swing hammer, no pain.

Because I'm having a hard time making the analogy work. Were you saying someone needed to be hugely obese for their job, like the fattest man in the world at the sideshow? Maybe that's an exception, except he'd have a "disability" that was his main job qualification, which seems odd.

But the carpenter didn't need to swing the hammer either, he could have used a nail gun and not gotten the problem. Now that he has it he can't use either a hammer or a nail gun.

Here's the deal. If you have a disability and the means to get better, but choose not to, then how much of a disability can it be? Apparently, fat people like being fat. Good for them.

That can be applied to a lot of things: gambling, alcoholism, drug addiction, homelessness, many diabetics, people who didn't get immunized as children, people involved in motor vehicle collisions they caused, heart disease, smoking . . .

And it's not like you stay fat without trying. You have to keep at it - work those mouth muscles and don't work any other muscles. Frankly, I'm not sure I could do it for money. So, we might admire them for their persistence, but that hardly amounts to a disability.

Actually, you are entirely wrong. It is much easier to gain weight without trying than it is to lose it. It takes effort to lose weight.

And it was society that made many people fat through advertising campaigns, hooking people on sugars, etc. Seems only fair that society pays for the problems it creates.

 

[The Atheist]

You do know what the ad hominem fallacy is, yes?

Obviously. Maybe you noted I headed the comment with "muse"?

The fact also exists that ad hominem logical fallacies need not be factually incorrect.

Just as I would expect most people defending cigarette smoking to be smokers, I'd be surprised if many people defending obesity weren't a touch tubby.

Try to look at it this way:

If an adult chooses to eat their way to oblivion, good for them - ya gotta die of something and if shoving food in your face makes you happy, go ahead.

If a kid is given food to make it obese, it is not the kid's fault and it sets the kid up for a lifelong state of derision, discrimination and negative health outcomes.

By normalising and defending obesity, we are reducing the chances of those kids avoiding becoming more negative health statistics.

Have you seen Type II diabetes? It ain't pretty and it is influenced 60-80% in Europeans by body fat content. As I said, my m-i-l has it. She spent last xmas in hospital having chunks of her foot cut off to save her life.

That is the deliciously sad irony in all of it. Why would I care? I have a BMI of 24.65 today, and anything under about 26/27 is perfectly healthy - I'm a tall, large-framed bloke. My wife's BMI at age 45 is 19.57, which for a petite woman is about as perfect as it could be. She eats like a horse, by the way, with an average calorific intake higher than mine as she has an enormously high metabolic rate. Never exercises but is a former top ballet dancer.

My kids are aged 5, 12, 15 and 24 and are all in superb physical shape; no athletes or anything - none of them exercise much - just the result of eating a tasty, balanced diet.

I'm not even saying people should follow that and try to be thinner - but I think it's tragic that we are normalising a dangerous behaviour.

Again, ask how you'd feel if cigarette smoking was again allowed to look cool. Would you be comfortable with that?

Apologies for the length of reply to a one-sentence post, but I'm finding this debate a little like swimming in tar, and I don't understand why. To me, it seems a very black and white issue and I really am surprised to find so many people defending obesity.

 

[The Atheist]

It takes effort to lose weight.

Wow, even in a sea of fallacies, that stands out as an extreme example of misinformation.

It certainly takes more effort to gain weight than lose it. Losing weight requires no effort at all, just a change of mind-set. Stopping eating crap is not "effort".

 

[qayak]

Wow, even in a sea of fallacies, that stands out as an extreme example of misinformation.

It certainly takes more effort to gain weight than lose it. Losing weight requires no effort at all, just a change of mind-set. Stopping eating crap is not "effort".

Only if you leave out 200,000 years of evolution. Why do you suppose more people getting fat than getting thin?

ETA: You can eat 1000 calories in 10 minutes, while sitting down. It takes at least n hour of very intense exercise to burn 1000 calories. It is easier to gain weight than to lose it.

 

[colander]

for someone who has done no reading whatsoever of the scientific literature about this topic, The Atheist certainly is sure of the validity of his feelings and opinions on it.

 

[phiwum]

Obviously. Maybe you noted I headed the comment with "muse"?

The fact also exists that ad hominem logical fallacies need not be factually incorrect.

Just as I would expect most people defending cigarette smoking to be smokers, I'd be surprised if many people defending obesity weren't a touch tubby.

Could be true. Could be false. But since we both acknowledge that it is irrelevant to the reasonableness of the defense, I suppose there's no reason at all to speculate.

So I won't.

 

[marplots]

That can be applied to a lot of things: gambling, alcoholism, drug addiction, homelessness, many diabetics, people who didn't get immunized as children, people involved in motor vehicle collisions they caused, heart disease, smoking . . .

Yes, personal responsibility for your lifestyle choices can be applied to a lot of things. I'm applying it to obesity specifically.

Actually, you are entirely wrong. It is much easier to gain weight without trying than it is to lose it. It takes effort to lose weight.

It takes less effort to not eat than to eat. Unless you mean some kind of psychic effort or something besides calories burned.

And it was society that made many people fat through advertising campaigns, hooking people on sugars, etc. Seems only fair that society pays for the problems it creates.

We might agree here. Society may have a duty to stop enabling these people. Perhaps incarceration over a certain BMI? I'm not sure, but I'd guess that obesity is less prevalent in prison.

Society could say, "Look, we're sorry we helped make you fat. Now we will use the full power of the state to make you thin again."

ETA: I found one obesity stat for inmates (from a 2009 report) that puts it at 23.1% (BMI >=30). JAMA puts adult obesity (BMI >=30) at between 32 - 38% (2012 data).

Links: http://paa2009.princeton.edu/papers/90951
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1832542

Do we care enough to help save these people from their weight?

 

[qayak]

Yes, personal responsibility for your lifestyle choices can be applied to a lot of things. I'm applying it to obesity specifically.

Just remember to apply it equally across the board.

It takes less effort to not eat than to eat. Unless you mean some kind of psychic effort or something besides calories burned.

Sure does . . . . . . until it's time to miss the second meal.

We might agree here. Society may have a duty to stop enabling these people. Perhaps incarceration over a certain BMI? I'm not sure, but I'd guess that obesity is less prevalent in prison.

Absolutely. Who was the dude further back in the thread who said he needed special treatment because he had a stroke or heart attack or something. Toss that tosser into jail too. Dumb asses who shoot themselves with guns should go to jail and be refused medical treatment and disability too. They deserve what they get, man!

 

[Tatyana]

Obviously. Maybe you noted I headed the comment with "muse"?

The fact also exists that ad hominem logical fallacies need not be factually incorrect.

Just as I would expect most people defending cigarette smoking to be smokers, I'd be surprised if many people defending obesity weren't a touch tubby.

Try to look at it this way:

If an adult chooses to eat their way to oblivion, good for them - ya gotta die of something and if shoving food in your face makes you happy, go ahead.

If a kid is given food to make it obese, it is not the kid's fault and it sets the kid up for a lifelong state of derision, discrimination and negative health outcomes.

By normalising and defending obesity, we are reducing the chances of those kids avoiding becoming more negative health statistics.

Have you seen Type II diabetes? It ain't pretty and it is influenced 60-80% in Europeans by body fat content. As I said, my m-i-l has it. She spent last xmas in hospital having chunks of her foot cut off to save her life.


I'm not even saying people should follow that and try to be thinner - but I think it's tragic that we are normalising a dangerous behaviour.

Again, ask how you'd feel if cigarette smoking was again allowed to look cool. Would you be comfortable with that?

Apologies for the length of reply to a one-sentence post, but I'm finding this debate a little like swimming in tar, and I don't understand why. To me, it seems a very black and white issue and I really am surprised to find so many people defending obesity.

I don't think any one is defending or normalising obesity. Personally, I think that you are continuing with stigmatising obesity.

It is obvious we have an issue with obesity and need to come to terms with it.

The evidence suggests that singling out the individual and 'fat shaming' doesn't work.

This ruling is a step towards stopping fat shaming.

If steps can be taken to assist obese people in remaining a productive member of society, I really don't see how that is defending or normalising obesity.

I think you may not be aware of the complexity of the issue we are facing, it isn't easy for people to lose weight. All of the current evidence supports this, so one person stating it is simple really doesn't carry any weight, in fact, I would even go so far as to say it is detrimental, again, it promotes a bigotry towards obese individuals.

The vast majority of obesity researchers are now working on prevention as it does appear we may have one or two generations who have been lost to obesity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866597/
Obesity Stigma: Important Considerations for Public Health

Obesity: an innately incurable disease?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10484309

The only 'cure' for obesity may be bariatric surgery. Even the NHS is now taking this approach as we really like evidence based solutions to health issues.

 

[marplots]

Just remember to apply it equally across the board.



Sure does . . . . . . until it's time to miss the second meal.



Absolutely. Who was the dude further back in the thread who said he needed special treatment because he had a stroke or heart attack or something. Toss that tosser into jail too. Dumb asses who shoot themselves with guns should go to jail and be refused medical treatment and disability too. They deserve what they get, man!

While I'm pleased we now see things similarly, I think you might be going too far in the other direction. We can start with the fatties and see how that works before attempting a broader program.

As I understand it, obese people do try diets and join weight watchers and other programs. By using the power of the state to mandate treatment, we are really just doing what these folks want anyhow.

"Mr. Carter, this court finds you grossly obese. I hereby sentence you to lose 230 pounds, in addition to mandatory nutrition and exercise training. May God have mercy on your portly frame."

 

[The Atheist]

ETA: You can eat 1000 calories in 10 minutes, while sitting down. It takes at least n hour of very intense exercise to burn 1000 calories. It is easier to gain weight than to lose it.

Another completely nonsensical post.

It is every bit as easy - and almost always much cheaper - to consume 200 calories in an 10 minutes than 1000.

 

[The Atheist]

for someone who has done no reading whatsoever of the scientific literature about this topic, The Atheist certainly is sure of the validity of his feelings and opinions on it.

Au contraire. I have done an enormous amount of research on obesity, yet nowhere have I seen any scientific opinion that the best thing to do is normalise and reward obesity.

If you are privy to such evidence, please do post it.

 

[The Atheist]

I don't think any one is defending or normalising obesity.

Then we clearly have utterly different comprehension styles.

Personally, I think that you are continuing with stigmatising obesity.

I'm not, but even if I am perceived as doing so, I'm not too concerned. If the alternative is pandering to people's desire to be obese and allowing their kids to eat themselves to early graves, I'm pretty comfortable with my side.

It is obvious we have an issue with obesity and need to come to terms with it.

On that, we agree 100%. It is not just an issue, it is undoubtedly the health issue of the 21st century.

How many people has ebola killed in 2014?
How many people has obesity killed in 2014?

The evidence suggests that singling out the individual and 'fat shaming' doesn't work.

This ruling is a step towards stopping fat shaming.

Nonsense.

If we apply logic to the ruling, the only possible result is a backlash against the obese, who will be correctly seen by normal-bodied employees as gaining an unfair advantage over not-fat employees.

If steps can be taken to assist obese people in remaining a productive member of society, I really don't see how that is defending or normalising obesity.

But that's exactly what it does!

If someone is an alcoholic, society has systems in place to help them - it does not force employers to make allowances, it says "Hey pal, you have a problem, let's try to treat that."

What the ruling proposes is that fat is fine and someone else should be made to pay for it.

I think you may not be aware of the complexity of the issue we are facing, it isn't easy for people to lose weight. All of the current evidence supports this, so one person stating it is simple really doesn't carry any weight, in fact, I would even go so far as to say it is detrimental, again, it promotes a bigotry towards obese individuals.

On that I disagree. I am well aware of the alleged problems of losing weight, yet millions of obese people have lost weight to normal levels and kept it that way, so it is absolutely possible.

Offer help to lose the weight, not an incentive to gain it.

The vast majority of obesity researchers are now working on prevention as it does appear we may have one or two generations who have been lost to obesity.

Bingo!

That is exactly what I'm saying. Stop the kids getting fat now and save this next generation. I do not believe letting them see clinically obese people being given favours as sending the message to kids that fat is not ok.

The only 'cure' for obesity may be bariatric surgery. Even the NHS is now taking this approach as we really like evidence based solutions to health issues.

That's pretty silly, since the obvious and easiest cure for obesity is to consume fewer calories. The NHS as a highly politicised organisation subject to Treasury funding may well not be the ideal organisation to refer to as it is in their interests to seek surgical answers.

I far prefer to follow the thoughts of the politically-independent Chief Medical Officer of UK. Oddly enough, one of her main concerns is normalisation of obesity. Who'da thought?

 

[marplots]

(much snipped)

The evidence suggests that singling out the individual and 'fat shaming' doesn't work.

This ruling is a step towards stopping fat shaming.

Could you describe what you mean by fat shaming?

 

[dirtywick]

I would just like to point out that I think many of you are missing a key difference between obesity and obesity so extreme that one would be physically incapable of basic movement and considered disabled. It takes an extreme amount of obesity to not be able to perform basic work tasks.