LDS II: The Mormons

[abaddon]

'The LDS church and her tenants'
What's the rent, I wonder?

About 10% of your income.

 

[RandFan]

About 10% of your income.

Never mind your time and sanity.

Coffee always tastes best on Sunday morning for me.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Never mind your time and sanity.

Coffee always tastes best on Sunday morning for me.

Semi-serious question: at the church or at home?

(Or has that changed over the years?)

 

[RandFan]

Semi-serious question: at the church or at home?

(Or has that changed over the years?)

The prohibition of anything makes it precious --Twain

Coffee is still proscribed in Mormonism.

 

[Blue Mountain]

The prohibition of anything makes it precious --Twain
Coffee is still proscribed in Mormonism.

Doh! I had quite forgotten about that.

I recall now that at one time all hot drinks were frowned upon in Mormonism. I believe that point was covered earlier in either this thread or its predecessor, where it was shown it wasn't some revelation from God given to Joseph Smith (or his successor); it merely echoed some general advice of the era.

Is still the case that all hot drinks, alcohol, and smoking are forbidden?

 

[abaddon]

Doh! I had quite forgotten about that.

I recall now that at one time all hot drinks were frowned upon in Mormonism. I believe that point was covered earlier in either this thread or its predecessor, where it was shown it wasn't some revelation from God given to Joseph Smith (or his successor); it merely echoed some general advice of the era.

Is still the case that all hot drinks, alcohol, and smoking are forbidden?

AFAIK, yes all verboten. That said, I make no particular effort to keep up with the latest crackpottery, so doctrine may have moved along to keep up with the modern world, as they perceive it (circa 1920).

 

[halleyscomet]

I have a question according to Ross Hassig's book War and Society in Ancient Mesoamerica, 1992, pp. 47, 119, 123, 197 no. 19, 225 no. 74, the Bow and arrow were absent from Mesoamerica and weren't brought into Mesoamerica until close to 1000 C.E., although it could be as late as c. 1200 C.E., well after the supposed destruction of the Nephites in 400 C.E.

Details! Details!

Isn't that the guy who accused both Janadele and Skyrider44 of being fake mormons?

Yep. Part of the motive for writing the book appears to have been thumbing his nose at the two of them.

Janadele is an Australian radio personality?

That's what she was claiming for a while anyway. I suppose Peter took her at her word on that particular slab of BS.

Sorry, Amazon and Peter Cornswalled, you will have to survive without splitting my .99 cents between you.

If you've followed this thread, there's nothing new for you to encounter anyway.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I have a question according to Ross Hassig's book War and Society in Ancient Mesoamerica, 1992, pp. 47, 119, 123, 197 no. 19, 225 no. 74, the Bow and arrow were absent from Mesoamerica and weren't brought into Mesoamerica until close to 1000 C.E., although it could be as late as c. 1200 C.E., well after the supposed destruction of the Nephites in 400 C.E.

"You are obviously not up to speed regarding the current state of LDS archaeological scholarship..."

 

[Giordano]

Doh! I had quite forgotten about that.

I recall now that at one time all hot drinks were frowned upon in Mormonism. I believe that point was covered earlier in either this thread or its predecessor, where it was shown it wasn't some revelation from God given to Joseph Smith (or his successor); it merely echoed some general advice of the era.

Is still the case that all hot drinks, alcohol, and smoking are forbidden?

Simple rule for all true religions: if it makes you feel good, don't do it!

 

[tsig]

Simple rule for all true religions: if it makes you feel good, don't do it!

A simple hymn for simple religious folk:

Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me

 

[halleyscomet]

"You are obviously not up to speed regarding the current state of LDS archaeological scholarship..."

The sad thing is, I read the apologetic writings SkyRider44 provided, and they were pathetic. I don't know what kind of requirements these jokers have to fulfill to become BYU professors, but the apologetic was some of the laziest, sloppiest, most inept trash I've encountered in the field of religious apologetic writing. There are Jack Chick tracts that are better researched and more convincingly presented. If I'd written anything that lazy and shoddily researched in my sixth grade confirmation classes I'd have been given a stern lecture by the Pastors about actually DOING the work instead of BSing my way through it. If I repeated the error, I'd have been kick out of the confirmation classes.

It's probably a good thing BYU professors never debate Lutheran Pastors in public forums. Anyone who survived their first year at a Missouri Synod seminary is going to be able to wipe the floor with any BUY professor, even if the Lutheran had spent the night before at a German beer garden drinking quantities large enough to impress Martin Luther himself. No WONDER Mormons ban alcohol. A mild hangover would put the LDS elite at enough of a disadvantage to be defeated by a curious six year old.

OK, that was unfair. A top ranking LDS member with a mild hangover could probably stand up to a curious eleven year old. A twelve year old however would be too much.

 

[Slowvehicle]

The sad thing is, I read the apologetic writings SkyRider44 provided, and they were pathetic. I don't know what kind of requirements these jokers have to fulfill to become BYU professors, but the apologetic was some of the laziest, sloppiest, most inept trash I've encountered in the field of religious apologetic writing. There are Jack Chick tracts that are better researched and more convincingly presented. If I'd written anything that lazy and shoddily researched in my sixth grade confirmation classes I'd have been given a stern lecture by the Pastors about actually DOING the work instead of BSing my way through it. If I repeated the error, I'd have been kick out of the confirmation classes.

It's probably a good thing BYU professors never debate Lutheran Pastors in public forums. Anyone who survived their first year at a Missouri Synod seminary is going to be able to wipe the floor with any BUY professor, even if the Lutheran had spent the night before at a German beer garden drinking quantities large enough to impress Martin Luther himself. No WONDER Mormons ban alcohol. A mild hangover would put the LDS elite at enough of a disadvantage to be defeated by a curious six year old.

OK, that was unfair. A top ranking LDS member with a mild hangover could probably stand up to a curious eleven year old. A twelve year old however would be too much.

Well said!

I, for one, get tired of the, "one day we may find evidence, so you have to accept it," stance.

 

[Craig4]

The sad thing is, I read the apologetic writings SkyRider44 provided, and they were pathetic. I don't know what kind of requirements these jokers have to fulfill to become BYU professors, but the apologetic was some of the laziest, sloppiest, most inept trash I've encountered in the field of religious apologetic writing. There are Jack Chick tracts that are better researched and more convincingly presented. If I'd written anything that lazy and shoddily researched in my sixth grade confirmation classes I'd have been given a stern lecture by the Pastors about actually DOING the work instead of BSing my way through it. If I repeated the error, I'd have been kick out of the confirmation classes.

It's probably a good thing BYU professors never debate Lutheran Pastors in public forums. Anyone who survived their first year at a Missouri Synod seminary is going to be able to wipe the floor with any BUY professor, even if the Lutheran had spent the night before at a German beer garden drinking quantities large enough to impress Martin Luther himself. No WONDER Mormons ban alcohol. A mild hangover would put the LDS elite at enough of a disadvantage to be defeated by a curious six year old.

OK, that was unfair. A top ranking LDS member with a mild hangover could probably stand up to a curious eleven year old. A twelve year old however would be too much.

I do feel ever so slightly bad for them. The problem isn't the quality of the Mormon/LDS scholarship; it's the quality of the scholarship in all the disciplines that contradict their beliefs that are their problem. There's just no amount of studying Mormon theology that's going to overcome the fundamental problems with their beliefs. Mormon apologists are really trying to shine a dirt clod. I know it's dreck but in fairness, it was probably the best dreck they could come up with. They're doing their best but Smith set them up for failure.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I do feel ever so slightly bad for them. The problem isn't the quality of the Mormon/LDS scholarship; it's the quality of the scholarship in all the disciplines that contradict their beliefs that are their problem. There's just no amount of studying Mormon theology that's going to overcome the fundamental problems with their beliefs. Mormon apologists are really trying to shine a dirt clod. I know it's dreck but in fairness, it was probably the best dreck they could come up with. They're doing their best but Smith set them up for failure.

I refuse, simply refuse, to feel bad for anyone who lets their need for a creed make bad decisions for them.

If there were a 'god'. and it were all-wise, seeking it should lead to actual truth, not fairy tales.

When you have gotten on the wrong bus, you have to get off to get anywhere.

 

[Craig4]

I refuse, simply refuse, to feel bad for anyone who lets their need for a creed make bad decisions for them.

If there were a 'god'. and it were all-wise, seeking it should lead to actual truth, not fairy tales.

When you have gotten on the wrong bus, you have to get off to get anywhere.

Fear not. My schadenfreuden is never eclipsed by my sense of pity. A small part of me feels a little bad but the larger part enjoys watching the professional apologist squirm.

I make a distinction for the kids I encounter on missions. They are neither professional apologists nor are they prepared for the likes of me. I do genuinely pity them as they are not prepared for what I consider to be obvious questions. I get why missionaries are not prepared for my questions. As there are no satisfactory answers, for anyone being honest with themselves, they'd turn half of the recruits into apostates in their attempt to provide responses.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Fear not. My schadenfreuden is never eclipsed by my sense of pity. A small part of me feels a little bad but the larger part enjoys watching the professional apologist squirm.

I make a distinction for the kids I encounter on missions. They are neither professional apologists nor are they prepared for the likes of me. I do genuinely pity them as they are not prepared for what I consider to be obvious questions. I get why missionaries are not prepared for my questions. As there are no satisfactory answers, for anyone being honest with themselves, they'd turn half of the recruits into apostates in their attempt to provide responses.

I agree. I don't engage missionaries, because it's too much like using the fat kid in gym class for a dodgeball tutorial.

OTH,the missionaries in ABQ are often unprepared for the high desert; and often on unsuitable, badly-maintained, department-store bicycles. I've spent a lot of time giving them water and electrolytes, and sunscreen, and fixing their rides...

 

[Craig4]

I agree. I don't engage missionaries, because it's too much like using the fat kid in gym class for a dodgeball tutorial.

OTH,the missionaries in ABQ are often unprepared for the high desert; and often on unsuitable, badly-maintained, department-store bicycles. I've spent a lot of time giving them water and electrolytes, and sunscreen, and fixing their rides...

The prepping missionaries thing for Mormons is a Catch 22. Setting aside the issues of just getting around in the high desert, getting them ready for what any idiot can find on their smart phone is a real problem for Mormons. If I just Google "becoming a Mormon" there are some really sound arguments for not doing it in the first five hits. I suspect that very few missionaries are ready for the issues addressed in those search results. I find it beyond irresponsible for the Mormon Church to not prepare their missionaries for people like me though I understand why they can't.

The truth is that if they prepare missionaries for people like me who ask questions about horses in the Pre-Colombian Americas, they risk telling their true believers that their lives are based on nothing.

This may be the last generation of Mormons and this religion may be the first causality of the internet.

 

[Pup]

The prepping missionaries thing for Mormons is a Catch 22. Setting aside the issues of just getting around in the high desert, getting them ready for what any idiot can find on their smart phone is a real problem for Mormons. If I just Google "becoming a Mormon" there are some really sound arguments for not doing it in the first five hits. I suspect that very few missionaries are ready for the issues addressed in those search results. I find it beyond irresponsible for the Mormon Church to not prepare their missionaries for people like me though I understand why they can't.

The truth is that if they prepare missionaries for people like me who ask questions about horses in the Pre-Colombian Americas, they risk telling their true believers that their lives are based on nothing.

This may be the last generation of Mormons and this religion may be the first causality of the internet.

Looking at it purely from a salesman's point of view, because that's what missionaries are, I think it makes sense not to encourage them to spend much time with people who clearly aren't going to "buy" what they're selling. If someone is concerned about horses in the pre-Columbian Americas, the chances of converting them to Mormonism are almost nil, so an hour spent trying to deal with their questions is an hour wasted.

If the vast majority of their contacts turn out to be people like that, conversion is going to drop like a rock.

I wonder what it's like to be a missionary these days, compared to pre-internet? The problem is that in the area where I live, people aren't very internet-savvy and they're big on joining religions in general, so missionary life here probably proceeds pretty much as it always did and asking the local missionaries wouldn't be a fair representation. In other locations, I expect it's different.

And of course, that doesn't explain all the hours the missionaries wasted on giving the discussions to me (pre-internet, FWIW), when I made it clear I wasn't interersted in joining.

I think that if I'd been openly hostile and smug as a debater and just generally no fun to be around (not that I'm saying you or anyone here fits that definition, but you know the type), they would have found an excuse not to do it. But because it was the fun sort of debating--friendly and lively as the saying goes--they found an excuse to do it, as educational outreach, because it was better than going door-to-door or other dreaded tasks.

 

[halleyscomet]

Petitioning Anonymous: Expose the finances of the Mormon "Church" (aka LDS, Inc.)

Well, THIS is interesting. Apparently being an LDS apostle is VERY, VERY lucrative.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Well, it's live.

Nephi's Bow by Peter Cornswalled
[qimg]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S5zBgYj4L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-v3-big,TopRight,0,-55_SX278_SY278_PIkin4,BottomRight,1,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg[/qimg]


The publication of a $0.99 BoM study guide is probably the single most productive thing to come from the entirety of the Mormon discussion on the forum. Kinda sad really.

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #427,400 Paid in Kindle Store

is that a good ranking?