The stupid explodes: obesity now a disability

[The Atheist]

I guess from a naive, uninformed point of view this might be true, but for anyone half a brain +, it's just B.S.

Oh do please explain what is so BS about it. In what way is her lifestyle choice to overeat - as she unquestionably does - not responsible for her health problems?

Next you will be telling us you are impervious to advertising.

Nice strawman, and the rolling eyes at your own strawman is an excellent touch.

 

[The Atheist]

I'd say that engaging in behavior with known outcomes says at the very least that you're comfortable with those outcomes, if not want them. If someone has a reversible condition, but does nothing to change, I assume they want to be that way.

Me too.

It's not fair to kids to bring them up like that. The same can be said for many ways kids are raised.

What I'd like to know is how is why fattening kids to obesity doesn't count as child abuse.

I fail to see it as anything else. People cannot claim ignorance any longer.

I was utterly shocked a couple of weeks ago when I saw a gym-fit, ab-displaying couple of about 30 with two girls aged 8-10 who were both absurdly obese. They were definitely the parents, because I heard them calling the couple mum & dad. How the hell does that work?

 

[The Atheist]

Muse: I'd love to know the girth of people defending obesity as a lifestyle choice, but then I might just be a cynical old git.

 

[qayak]

Oh do please explain what is so BS about it. In what way is her lifestyle choice to overeat - as she unquestionably does - not responsible for her health problems?

I had two friends die of asbestos cancer. I guess it was their fault for choosing to drive trains and work for a company tearing down an old mill.

I had a friend paralysed in a car accident. I guess it was their fault for choosing to drive a car instead of walking.

I have two friends who are under a great deal of stress in their jobs. One's stress resulted in a heart attack, the other in an eating disorder. Ignorant people think that only one of these deserves medical treatment and the designation "disability."

Nice strawman, and the rolling eyes at your own strawman is an excellent touch.

Ahhhh! The old phantom strawman claim.

 

[qayak]

Muse: I'd love to know the girth of people defending obesity as a lifestyle choice, but then I might just be a cynical old git.

I would have guessed Australian. My experience is that Australians love to point out, and mock, the shortcomings of others while ignoring their own.

 

[The Atheist]

Ahhhh! The old phantom strawman claim.

Nice try, but it is a clear strawman and not even slightly phantom. You made an absurd strawman position that has no relationship to the subject or my position.

Still, it fits well with the one, two, three... possibly four non sequiturs which make up the balance of your post.

Your post immediately preceding this one is both incorrect, because I'm not an Australian, and nonsense, because I have not mocked the shortcomimgs of anyone.

Why I'm bothering to tell you, I have no idea, but I'll give you an excellent example.

My father died of smoking-related cancer at age 65. While still miss the old scroat over 30 years later, I have always accepted it was his choice to keep smoking.

Last year, the male friend I've been closest to at any stage of my life died from early onset Alzheimer's disease. That was a tragedy and nothing like my father's death.

Hey. Feel free to continue posting nonsensical rubbish. I will be ignoring from now on - I can't imagine anyone who would ever read it can't see through it on their own.

Nice to see you after all these years. Plus ce change...

 

[marplots]

I had two friends die of asbestos cancer. I guess it was their fault for choosing to drive trains and work for a company tearing down an old mill.

Yes, as sad as it sounds, it would be their fault. Every day (maybe many times a day) when they opened their piggy maws and stuffed their faces full of asbestos, they made a new choice to keep pursuing the bad behavior. As they grew fat from eating all that asbestos, they would have had to buy first XL, then XXL, then XXXL. Their loved ones - at least those few who cared - would have warned them: "Look man, all that asbestos is making you huge. It's going to kill you." And yet, despite all this, they kept right on. Slow suicide, but suicide nonetheless.

 

[qayak]

Slow suicide, but suicide nonetheless.

Now it's a time thing. If it happens quickly it's oksy buy you, a snowmobile accident say, but if it happens slowly, you feel it's not a disability.

Where does that leave people with repetitive motion injuries or chronic problems like inflammatory arthritis? You know, the carpenter who can't close his hand and is in constant pain from long years of swinging a hammer. He was warned by those who care but he went right on doing it.

 

[Modified]

Now it's a time thing. If it happens quickly it's oksy buy you, a snowmobile accident say, but if it happens slowly, you feel it's not a disability.

I think the difference is between taking risks and deliberately harming yourself. Consider someone who intentionally drove a snowmobile into a tree. The results are the same and the person is disabled in either case, but if done deliberately (assuming the person's job involves driving a snowmobile) then disability or long term care insurance may refuse to pay.

Where does that leave people with repetitive motion injuries or chronic problems like inflammatory arthritis? You know, the carpenter who can't close his hand and is in constant pain from long years of swinging a hammer. He was warned by those who care but he went right on doing it.

Warned of the risks or diagnosed with the problem?

 

[bluesjnr]

Nice try, but it is a clear strawman and not even slightly phantom. You made an absurd strawman position that has no relationship to the subject or my position.

Still, it fits well with the one, two, three... possibly four non sequiturs which make up the balance of your post.

Your post immediately preceding this one is both incorrect, because I'm not an Australian, and nonsense, because I have not mocked the shortcomimgs of anyone.

Why I'm bothering to tell you, I have no idea, but I'll give you an excellent example.

My father died of smoking-related cancer at age 65. While still miss the old scroat over 30 years later, I have always accepted it was his choice to keep smoking.

Last year, the male friend I've been closest to at any stage of my life died from early onset Alzheimer's disease. That was a tragedy and nothing like my father's death.

Hey. Feel free to continue posting nonsensical rubbish. I will be ignoring from now on - I can't imagine anyone who would ever read it can't see through it on their own.

Nice to see you after all these years. Plus ce change...

What would your position be if it was fat woman, with an obese baby, using a disabled space because some bastard had parked in the last parent and child space?

 

[The Atheist]

What would your position be if it was fat woman, with an obese baby, using a disabled space because some bastard had parked in the last parent and child space?

Good grief, have you still not recovered from having your selfish position on parent & child parking destroyed?

 

[The Atheist]

You know, the carpenter who can't close his hand and is in constant pain from long years of swinging a hammer. He was warned by those who care but he went right on doing it.

Another completely nonsensical attempt at equivalence.

The chances of a carpenter developing a repetition injury is almost zero. Even in days when they swung hammers, carpenters worked up until their 70s in many cases and retirement through repetition injury was rare.

Now, the virtually never use a hammer, preferring the far more effective nail gun.

You could try a lot harder than that.

Let me make it easy for you so you give up on the absurdity and attempt actual sensible debate.

Obesity is a direct equivalent to cigarette smoking.

Both are a personal choice
Both are addictive behaviour
Both are known to be, and warned by doctors as, health- and potentially life-threatening behaviours
Both have higher loadings on health and life insurance policies
Both have well-established higher sick leave rates than their negative counterparts

The really funny part of this discussion is that I have no personal feelings on the subject at all, other than the negative outcomes associated with obesity.

I really do not give a damn if someone wants to look like an elephant seal.

The part I disagree with is making it someone else's problem. An employer is under no obligation to refuse to hire a smoker, an alcoholic or drug addict - indeed can test to make sure no alkies or druggies slip through - and that is where obesity should sit from an employment law perspective.

Employers will be forced to make allowances for obese staff - at the expense of the non-obese staff.

I begin to see why there is so much support for obesity being a disability when it gives the obese the ability to have their cake, eat it too, and get someone else to pay for it.

Bloody hell, that last sentence is so good I think I'll sig it for a while. If I were Wolfman, I'd nominate myself for pith/

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Well, it worked out pretty well in Greece. Not only was obesity a disability there, but also pedophilia, exhibitionism, kleptomania, pyromania, gambling addiction, fetishism and sadomasochism. The Greek government was basically telling people "if you're broke, start a fire!"

 

[MRC_Hans]

Thanks to a European Court of Justice judgement, obesity can now be considered a disability. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/18/obesity-can-be-disability-eu-court-rules

So, I guess we can take it that the ECJ no longer believes in personal responsibility and if that an employee chooses to be so grossly obese he/sha cannot fulfill their paid function, the employer must pay for it!

Where does responsibility come into it? If you fool around drunk with a chain-saw and cut your own leg off, it's your own responsibility, but you are certainly disabled.

Disability is a condition. An objective one. How you became disabled is a different discussion.

Hans

 

[TubbaBlubba]

...

Of the variance in obesity:

...

25% by non-shared family environment (e.g., your sister but not you works for Hostess).

I didn't know embalming fluid contributed to obesity.

 

[marplots]

Slow suicide, but suicide nonetheless.

Now it's a time thing. If it happens quickly it's oksy buy you, a snowmobile accident say, but if it happens slowly, you feel it's not a disability.

I said all that in five words? Sometimes I amaze myself.

Where does that leave people with repetitive motion injuries or chronic problems like inflammatory arthritis? You know, the carpenter who can't close his hand and is in constant pain from long years of swinging a hammer. He was warned by those who care but he went right on doing it.

I feel bad for that girl. Perhaps there's a carpentry supervisory position she might be qualified for. When she stopped swinging the hammer, did she get better? You know, how someone who stops stuffing their fat face will lose weight? Because I'm having a hard time making the analogy work. Were you saying someone needed to be hugely obese for their job, like the fattest man in the world at the sideshow? Maybe that's an exception, except he'd have a "disability" that was his main job qualification, which seems odd.

Here's the deal. If you have a disability and the means to get better, but choose not to, then how much of a disability can it be? Apparently, fat people like being fat. Good for them.

And it's not like you stay fat without trying. You have to keep at it - work those mouth muscles and don't work any other muscles. Frankly, I'm not sure I could do it for money. So, we might admire them for their persistence, but that hardly amounts to a disability.

 

[Tatyana]

Muse: I'd love to know the girth of people defending obesity as a lifestyle choice, but then I might just be a cynical old git.

If I am honest, my first reaction when I see an obese or morbidly obese person is highly judgemental. It is a physical repulsion. However, as I am a scientist, I am also aware that the vast majority of evidence suggests that blaming the individual is really fruitless and potentially harmful.

That is me in my avatar. I have been a little bit overweight and had to lose 20 lbs more than once, and it is difficult, and I know what I am doing.

Lately, I am loving the running, I am aiming to be able to do a 10 km in 40-50 min. As an aside, I feel sorry for people (overweight/obese from a young age) who have never been able to experience that rush of a runner's high, when you feel like you are float/flying through your run.

Considering that the trend in humanity is to being overweight or obese, there is obviously something going on that is far greater than individual will power.

We are fighting our evolved instincts to pile on fat to survive, because until quite recently, dieing of starvation was not that uncommon.

We also know that most people are never going to recover from obesity and morbid obesity, and if they lose the weight, they will probably put it back on within 5 years.

We really need to come up with a new game plan as everything we have tried so far really isn't working.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

... How do you determine if a disability is the result of lifestyle choices or just dumb bad luck?

For individuals, I suppose that takes a medical professional.

Now, for societies, we have some factors that are unrelated to genetics, since human genes cannot possibly evolve significantly in the three decades it has taken for Americans to become, on average, a lot fatter.

The high growth in the total percent of fat people in the US is therefore far more a case of lifestyle choices. The base population with a genetic pre-disposition has changed little if at all.

To be kind, modern city and work life do not lend themselves well to good health.

But to also be blunt: Boy am I sick and tired of overbearing fat white men who are dedicated to gluttony and self-indulgence. Buncha losers, and it is exclusively their own fault. Cut down on the beer and sugar, for crying out loud! If smokers get blamed for their choices while victims of strongly addicting drugs, fat people should get double the blame.

According to Food Addicts Anonymous, the condition is described as:

Food addiction manifests itself in the uncontrollable craving for excess food that follows the ingestion of refined carbohydrates, primarily sugar and flour substances that are quickly metabolized and turned into sugar in the bloodstream.

They go on to state:

This biochemical disease is chronic, progressive and fatal. At the later stages of the disease, despair becomes our daily companion.

News flash: It's called being hungry. Excess cells demand excess food, full stop. Lose slowly over time by always staying a little hungry, and eating healthy foods. That's all it takes for those with no genetic condition.

 

[Tatyana]

For individuals, I suppose that takes a medical professional.

Now, for societies, we have some factors that are unrelated to genetics, since human genes cannot possibly evolve significantly in the three decades it has taken for Americans to become, on average, a lot fatter.

It isn't about any new genes, it is about genes we have always had to survive periods in our human pre-history when food was not that available.

It is the environment that has changed.

It isn't a new hypothesis, it is referred to as the 'thrifty gene' hypothesis, however it does look like someone has proposed a modification to this hypothesis.

http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v32/n11/full/ijo2008161a.html

Thrifty vs Drifty Gene Theory of Obesity

Thrifty genes for obesity, an attractive but flawed idea, and an alternative perspective: the ‘drifty gene’ hypothesis

 

[blutoski]

It isn't about any new genes, it is about genes we have always had to survive periods in our human pre-history when food was not that available.

It is the environment that has changed.

It isn't a new hypothesis, it is referred to as the 'thrifty gene' hypothesis, however it does look like someone has proposed a modification to this hypothesis.

http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v32/n11/full/ijo2008161a.html

Thrifty vs Drifty Gene Theory of Obesity

Thrifty genes for obesity, an attractive but flawed idea, and an alternative perspective: the ‘drifty gene’ hypothesis

This is an element of the Dual Intervention Point model I brought up in another thread. The lower (starvation) triggers are very consistent throughout the population because of significant and understandable selection pressures. The upper (predation) triggers have had no selection pressure for possibly hundreds of thousands or millions of years, and have succumbed to genetic drift.




Regarding the OP, I think this ruling is sensible. It is consistent with laws in other countries that have been around for decades. The sky has not fallen.

We cause a lot of problems, whether it be acute injuries or chronic accumulated damage. Other examples of the latter are: health problems from sports, cancer from drinking or smoking, liver disorders from drinking, cancer from sun exposure, blindness or other circulation problms from poor management of Type I diabetes. Acid reflux from spicy food... Shoot: in principle, even bad posture.

At the end of the day, you're disabled or you're not. Being disabled sucks, and this is an strong input when people weigh their behavior and its consequences. Being disabled should be the definition of disabled.