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Commandments for Atheists?

In all seriousness, do atheists want to celebrate their lack of morality or moral guidelines?

I can only speak for myself, not atheists as a whole, because atheists have no uniting creeds or guidelines. However, I don't celebrate a lack of morality or moral guidelines. I have morality and moral guidelines (although the latter is equivalent to the former and is not codified in any way), but that morality is in no way connected to my atheism. The one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
 
In all seriousness, do atheists want to celebrate their lack of morality or moral guidelines?


Who said atheists lack morality or moral guidelines?

It's only true that atheism itself provides no moral guidelines. That doesn't mean that atheists don't have moral guidelines.

It can be tricky, since there is such a wide disparity of opinion on the subject by atheists (everything from "morality is what we say it is" to "morality has a scientific and/or evolutionary basis") Is there any consensus?


The only universal consensus among atheists about anything is that we don't believe that any god exists (which is necessarily true by the definition of "atheist"). There's not even a consensus as to whether or not we believe that no god exists.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god. That's it. End of story.

Because atheism itself doesn't provide a set of moral guidelines, atheists get their morality from other sources, often from different brands of philosophy.

Since different atheist derive their morality by different means, you get a wide range of different answers.

But that's hardly surprising. Take a look at the many thousands of branches of Christianity. They all claim to get their morality from the same source, but there's still vast differences among different Christians as to what they consider moral and immoral behaviour. Ask different Christians about euthanasia, abortion, homosexuality, alcohol, or a wide range of other subjects, and you'll find that different Christians have different opinions.

Personally, I think that morality has a strong evolutionary basis. We're communal species, and tend to form communities for mutual benefit.

Throughout most of our evolutionary history we've tended to live in small tribes or communities. Since the success of the individuals in the community is often tied to the success of the community as a whole, and other people who share the same genes as us (our close relatives) are often dependant on the same community as we are, there's a strong selection pressure favouring behaviour that tends to be beneficial to the community.

So it's only natural that we tend to evolve instinctive inclinations to behave in a way that tends to be beneficial to the community. We call these inclinations "morality".

That list I posted earlier, I came up with that by considering what kind of behaviours would tend to be beneficial or detrimental to a community.

For example, the first one "Do not cause avoidable harm, suffering or distress".

Since the community is made up of its members, harming the members also harms the community. Plus the community cannot function effectively if everyone is reluctant to interact with each-other for fear of being harmed or made to suffer.

(I won't bother going through the reasons for all of them.)

So while there may be large differences in the specifics of what atheists (and theists) tend to regard as moral and immoral, everyone tends to agree on general principles, such as murder and theft being wrong, because we tend to reject any moral code which disagrees with our moral instincts.
 
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In all seriousness, do atheists want to celebrate their lack of morality or moral guidelines?
Not at all. Due to the lottery of my birth I was raised with some of the typical christian values that were instilled in my parents. After I rejected religion over a decade ago my moral guidelines changed bu I've not rejected morality at all.

Ranb
 
In all seriousness, do atheists want to celebrate their lack of morality or moral guidelines? Because that is the impression I get from some of the responses here. I'm actually interested in the subject right now (will have to dig up some of the past threads) because I'm debating a believer friend on the subject of morals. It can be tricky, since there is such a wide disparity of opinion on the subject by atheists (everything from "morality is what we say it is" to "morality has a scientific and/or evolutionary basis") Is there any consensus?

In what way do you presume to pretend that the fact that I do not believe in a 'god', in your 'god', nor yet in any 'gods' results in a "lack of morality"?

I'm not the one telling people a 'god' loves them enough to send them to eternal torture for not loving it back enough, or in the right way; I'm not the one telling people 'god' will be please to "protect" them from what it will do to them if they do not let it "protect" them.

I'm not the one pretending that a "revelation" from a 'god' gives me leave to declare any contrary opinion not only wrong, but immoral and evil.

I confess no creed; I do not need to be told by a 'god' what is right and what is wrong.

I do not need "commandments"; my decision to act morraly is my own choice.

You may be misusing the simple English noun, "morality"...
 
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So while there may be large differences in the specifics of what atheists (and theists) tend to regard as moral and immoral, everyone tends to agree on general principles, such as murder and theft being wrong, because we tend to reject any moral code which disagrees with our moral instincts.

Thanks, Brian, that was a clear and concise response! :)
 
In what way do you presume to pretend that the fact that I do not believe in a 'god', in your 'god', nor yet in any 'gods' results in a "lack of morality"?

No, no--i wasn't presuming anything, I was just reacting to the tone of some of the responses above, mocking the idea that morality is important.

I'm not the one telling people a 'god' loves them enough to send them to eternal torture for not loving it back enough, or in the right way; I'm not the one telling people 'god' will be please to "protect" them from what it will do to them if they do not let it "protect" them.

I'm not the one pretending that a "revelation" from a 'god' gives me leave to declare any contrary opinion not only wrong, but immoral and evil.

I confess no creed; I do not need to be told by a 'god' what is right and what is wrong.

I do not need "commandments"; my decision to act morraly is my own choice.

You may be misusing the simple English noun, "morality"...

Therein lies the difficulty in debating believers on this subject. You said it yourself: "I confess no creed" You clearly state that you derive your morality from your own whimsical ideas. I suppose that doesn't bother you or many atheists, but it certainly bothers theists, and as an ex-theist myself, I find it somewhat troubling. :boggled:
 
In all seriousness, do atheists want to celebrate their lack of morality or moral guidelines? Because that is the impression I get from some of the responses here. I'm actually interested in the subject right now (will have to dig up some of the past threads) because I'm debating a believer friend on the subject of morals. It can be tricky, since there is such a wide disparity of opinion on the subject by atheists (everything from "morality is what we say it is" to "morality has a scientific and/or evolutionary basis") Is there any consensus?

Others have covered pretty well the fact that atheism doesn't have morality or moral guidelines, but the vast majority of atheists do.

However, it would be worth pointing out that believers have a wide disparity of opinion on what's moral. If one counts past religions or believers as well as current ones, it seems that a person could find a god to believe in that would consider anything he wanted to do moral, from rape to mass murder. There's really no advantage to being a believer, as far as limiting behavior based on morality.
 
1. Do not assume atheists are all the same.

2. Recognizing that diversity, do not try to reduce things to lists.

3. Profit!!!
 
You clearly state that you derive your morality from your own whimsical ideas.

"Whimsical" is your word and your word alone.

I suppose that doesn't bother you or many atheists, but it certainly bothers theists, and as an ex-theist myself, I find it somewhat troubling. :boggled:

Why do you find the idea that people derive their morals from a source other than a supernatural being "troubling"?
 
No, no--i wasn't presuming anything, I was just reacting to the tone of some of the responses above, mocking the idea that morality is important.



Therein lies the difficulty in debating believers on this subject. You said it yourself: "I confess no creed" You clearly state that you derive your morality from your own whimsical ideas. I suppose that doesn't bother you or many atheists, but it certainly bothers theists, and as an ex-theist myself, I find it somewhat troubling. :boggled:

The highlighted is your own, whimsical, presumptuous contribution--would you like to revisit your claim that you aren't presuming?

(ETA: ninja-ed, by Squeegee Beckenheim. Well said!)

No matter how "boggled" you find yourself, take comfort in the fact that I do not have a sky-fairy telling me that others are less than human if their choices do not mirror the "rules" that sky-fairy "wants" me to follow.

I find it troubling how many theists (and, apparently, "ex-theists") seem to think that no one is "moral" unless they are told, or coerced, so to be.
 
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Why do you find the idea that people derive their morals from a source other than a supernatural being "troubling"?

Well, for the same reason I find it troubling that theists believe in a being without scientific evidence--the lack of foundation, of objective basis. I would like to see a scientific basis for morality, unfortunately I haven't seen a really convincing argument for one. At least if you believe in the 'sky fairy'--there's an absolute source, no need to come up with elaborate explanations or rationale for your own set of morals. If it really is just "philosophy" or personal worldview--then it can change on a dime, and a human dime is pretty unsteady. That is a bit disconcerting to me, as one who has seen the issue from the perspective of both a theist and atheist.
 
In all seriousness, do atheists want to celebrate their lack of morality or moral guidelines? Because that is the impression I get from some of the responses here.
I think the responders you are thinking of are not "celebrating lack of morality" at all. Rather, they are making fun of the idea that atheists (an extremely diverse bunch, as Brian-M explained) could ever have a unifying set of commandments.

And I happen to agree that it is a silly idea.
 
I think the responders you are thinking of are not "celebrating lack of morality" at all. Rather, they are making fun of the idea that atheists (an extremely diverse bunch, as Brian-M explained) could ever have a unifying set of commandments.

And I happen to agree that it is a silly idea.

Agreed--hence the follow-up question--where does your morality come from? How do you determine right from wrong? Whatever feels good to you? Whatever Aristotle says? Whatever doesn't get you eaten by cannibals? It has to come from somewhere, no? If not, then morality is determined by consensus. Obviously some atheists are not troubled by that--I am.
 
Well, for the same reason I find it troubling that theists believe in a being without scientific evidence--the lack of foundation, of objective basis. I would like to see a scientific basis for morality, unfortunately I haven't seen a really convincing argument for one. At least if you believe in the 'sky fairy'--there's an absolute source, no need to come up with elaborate explanations or rationale for your own set of morals. If it really is just "philosophy" or personal worldview--then it can change on a dime, and a human dime is pretty unsteady. That is a bit disconcerting to me, as one who has seen the issue from the perspective of both a theist and atheist.

Why do you need morals to be absolute?

Morals is what you do.
 
Yes, Tsig--but what you do was taught to you--you didn't come up with it in a vacuum!
 
Yes, Tsig--but what you do was taught to you--you didn't come up with it in a vacuum!

Certainly just like every other human, which proves there can be no absolute morality.
 
At least if you believe in the 'sky fairy'--there's an absolute source, no need to come up with elaborate explanations or rationale for your own set of morals.

You may be attributing it to an outside source but if that outside source doesn't actually exist, then you're still getting your morality from the same place as non-believers - the people around you (both your immediate circle and the larger society you're a part of) and your own brain.

You say you've been a theist. How many religious people do you know that agree with their church 100% on every single issue? I don't think I've ever talked to a single person from a single religion who couldn't disagree with someone else from their religious social circle about at least some small aspect of what their religion said they should do. Churches are not some homogeneous whole.

I've also known people who have become disillusioned with their Church or who have only just discovered religion. What tends to be common in these situations is for them to "shop around" for a Church to join. In other words, they're looking for a Church that conforms to their morals, rather than having their morals shaped by their Church. If their morality were derived from an objective source, then how could this be possible? Shouldn't every religious person or, at least, every member of any specific Church, have exactly the same opinions on everything to do with morals?
 
Well, for the same reason I find it troubling that theists believe in a being without scientific evidence--the lack of foundation, of objective basis. I would like to see a scientific basis for morality, unfortunately I haven't seen a really convincing argument for one. At least if you believe in the 'sky fairy'--there's an absolute source, no need to come up with elaborate explanations or rationale for your own set of morals. If it really is just "philosophy" or personal worldview--then it can change on a dime, and a human dime is pretty unsteady. That is a bit disconcerting to me, as one who has seen the issue from the perspective of both a theist and atheist.

Which might make the beginnings of the faintest glimmerings of a small amount of sense, were it not that "objective" theist morality is mutable, and subject to whim and to changing social mores (ask a Southern Baptist in Arizona how 'god' feels about tobacco--then ask a Southern Baptist in North Carolina the same question...). The "absolute source"of theist "morality" usually turns out to be post-hoc rationalization of social changes.
 
Agreed--hence the follow-up question--where does your morality come from? How do you determine right from wrong? Whatever feels good to you? Whatever Aristotle says? Whatever doesn't get you eaten by cannibals? It has to come from somewhere, no? If not, then morality is determined by consensus. Obviously some atheists are not troubled by that--I am.

"Morality" is, in fact, determined by consensus. "Right" and "wrong" are social constructs. Look how hard xians, in the US, are having to scramble to face the fact that the social consensus about homosexuality is changing.

Is it "immoral" to marry a person of a different ethnicity, or a different skin color, or a different social stratum as yourself? Is it "immoral" to marry a person of the same gender as yourself?

Is out ongoing permanent war with Oceania "moral"?
 

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