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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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The irony is Samson will never understand how racist his comment was, and the tragedy is none of the 15 people who populate this site will call him out on it.

I just finished reading a book written from a black woman talking about how hyper religious black women tend to be (US perspective). . . .Is she racist as well?

The statistics that Samson brought up are pretty useless but we are still left with no reason that really even makes sense for Amanda to commit the crime, no communication between Amanda and Raff with Guede, and no physical evidence tying her to the crime.

Let us be blunt here, Amanda Knox could be a horrid person but if the evidence does not support guilt, it does not matter. She could be a wonderful person but if the evidence does support guilt, I think she should pay the proper penalties.
 
In answer to Machiavelli, Numbers, griffinmill and Bill W,

I was talking about probabilities, and these must be assessed to help solve the crime expeditiously. When there is equal opportunity for a young black male, and a young white female to kill with a knife, while all possibilities must be allowed, the statistics are overwhelming, and it will be asinine stupidity to suspect the female, but rather regard it as a sensible course to eliminate her as a suspect.

Profiling used this way is useless to solve a crime. Read John Douglas.... crimes are solved on the evidence.

Profiling finds it's best use to narrow the field in a crime where there are few clues. The crime as committed on Nov 1, 2007, in Perugia was not solved through profiling or statistics like this at all.

Race had nothing to do with it. Misreading and misuse of behavioural analysis convicted AK and RS, and the forensics convicted Rudy Guede - all those forensics were completely colour blind.

With all due respect, Samson, this case is (and never was) about profiling.
 
This is exactly what I define as racism.



I interpret this way of using "statistics" exactly as racism.
By the way, apparently this was not the only mistake you make with probabilities. But as some important scientist said, there are two kinds of lies: lies, and statistics. It is very possible to misuse statistics and doing so infer false information, as a consequence of incorrect assessment methods.

If you are going to quote, do so correctly. The saying is 'there are lies, damn lies and statistics'. This is attributed to a nineteenth century popular novelist and journalist; either Mark Twain, or by Twain himself to Benjamin Disraeli. Not a scientist. FWIW much of modern physics is statistics e.g. quantum theory. Your computer works because of statistics.
 
The irony is Samson will never understand how racist his comment was, and the tragedy is none of the 15 people who populate this site will call him out on it.
There is no irony now. I am being called on it left right and center by people who believe in Judge Hellmann's findings of complete innocence. They do so because they are critical thinkers interested in the truth, and the paths to finding it. People from the PMFs seldom post here because they can not answer questions about motive, opportunity, digestive science, direction and velocity of rocks, advisability of staging a noisy break in at midnight with a dead body in the house, probability of finding vital evidence to replace vital evidence lost for detaining Raffaele, why Amanda kept visiting the police station voluntarily, and why eggs break on the floor not the ceiling when you drop them.
 
In answer to Machiavelli, Numbers, griffinmill and Bill W,

I was talking about probabilities, and these must be assessed to help solve the crime expeditiously. When there is equal opportunity for a young black male, and a young white female to kill with a knife, while all possibilities must be allowed, the statistics are overwhelming, and it will be asinine stupidity to suspect the female, but rather regard it as a sensible course to eliminate her as a suspect.

I did not want to try to quote from John Douglas (a firm believer in AK and RS's innocence, BTW) because I am doing it from memory.

However, I did read his book, the one where he describes the "revolutionary" approach he brought to crime-analysis called "profiling". This is not "profiling" in the sense of using racial statistics to solve crimes....

...... his approach, unique at the time, was go actually interview those already in prison, the convicted perps themselves. He noticed similarities of behaviour, and patterns of operation which they themselves described, which could be cross referenced to certain kinds of crimes....

.... paired with the forensic clues left at the scene; all to narrow the field of possible suspects when there were simply too many to consider at any one time.

He began to notice that the people already in prison for a vast array of specific crimes, displayed common behaviours for individual specific crimes. I simply do not remember Douglas singling out racial groupings - except for some classes of crimes which were rarely done cross-racially.

This did not solve the crime, per se, but it helped police rule out whole classes of people. If a certain kind of crime was seldom done cross-racially, then the cops could narrow their search for potential perps of the same race.

Douglas was up front that this was not 100% predictive - it was merely putting into place the reality of who was already in jail for certain kinds of offenses, and all he did was note the similarities of behaviours and backgrounds of those people already in jail.

It still did not get the police off the hook to solve the crime, and assemble legitimate evidence. Douglas-style profiling is only a tool, and if it as a tool is leading investigators in the wrong direction it needs to be ditched.

For instance; if his profiling observed that one kind of crime almost never occurred cross-racially, he would never in a million years criticize an investigation which just so happened, in that case, to have unimpeachable evidence point to something different. That's not what his style of profiling is about.

My gripe with you, Samson, is the way you used the word "solve" in the same sentence as those probabilities.

But back to the point. The Kercher murder was never about race. The only reason Machiavelli harps on about race, is because he assumes that the innocentisti are motivated by AK's whiteness meaning goodness, and Rudy Guede's blackness being about badness.

That's a lot of tripe. Guede is guilty and uniquely guilty because his is the evidence which solves the crime - his DNA is in the victim, and forensics pointing to AK and/or RS simply are not there.

But the only reason why we're even talking race is first and foremost because of Giuliano Mignini trying to play the race card at trial, and dealing it from the bottom of the deck. He was using it as a cover for a failing prosecution.....

...... the proof, for me, is that even the convicting judges did not believe him.

It's proof, for me, that the on-line version of guilters are really Migninians. They're less concerned with Meredith Kercher than with defending Mignini from 23 false persecutions in a row, beginning with the Narducci affair. AK and RS were simply the last two in that string of prosecutorial persecutions Mignini engaged in....

..... and appears to be getting off scott-free within Italy for, because of the power of the PMs in that country.

This case is not about profiling, it's not about race, it's about the evidence, and the guilters inability to describe how three people could have done this, with two sets of forensics missing.

No wonder they wish to talk about race!!! It's why Mignini brought it up in the first place.
 
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In answer to Machiavelli, Numbers, griffinmill and Bill W,

I was talking about probabilities, and these must be assessed to help solve the crime expeditiously. When there is equal opportunity for a young black male, and a young white female to kill with a knife, while all possibilities must be allowed, the statistics are overwhelming, and it will be asinine stupidity to suspect the female, but rather regard it as a sensible course to eliminate her as a suspect.

The young black male has physical strength, biological.
This one has declared that knives are his means of self defence, thus a willingness to use, Milan.
His shoeprints palm print are in blood beside the victim.

By the time we go to trial, to conclude Amanda used the knife gets us into this infernal mess against probability, habit, and direct evidence.

{1} To use statistics about race to help solve the crime may be applied racism, but what has that got to do with me?

{2} As for the suggestion American statistics are unuseful, that may be so. I have no information there, but I doubt very much they are independent of Italian stats.

1. You and I don't have those statistics for the US, let alone for Italy. While there might be some evidence of "race" in the DNA or hair left by the perpetrator at a crime scene, in this case only the forensic police have that information. The crime is not merely a homicide, but a specific event with evidence.

2. The US statistics are definitely independent of the Italian ones. To believe otherwise would be racist, because the only commonality of African Americans and sub-Saharan African immigrants to Italy would be (perceived) skin color. There is actually considerable variation in DNA in Africa, and it is incorrect to lump African populations together because of skin color.

African-Americans in the US have relatively high homicide rates, but this is related to social and economic class (more relative poverty among African-Americans than European-Americans), gangs and turf wars, and other issues, such as the ready availability of guns. The majority of African-Americans are descended from slaves brought to the US, and even after slavery was ended by the American Civil War and the adoption of the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution, African-Americans were subjected to discrimination and mistreatment. African immigrants to Italy do not have these US historical or current social and economic conditions, so their behavior can not be linked to that of US African-Americans by statistics.

ETA: Highlighting and numbers added to quote.
 
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I did not want to try to quote from John Douglas (a firm believer in AK and RS's innocence, BTW) because I am doing it from memory.

However, I did read his book, the one where he describes the "revolutionary" approach he brought to crime-analysis called "profiling". This is not "profiling" in the sense of using racial statistics to solve crimes....

...... his approach, unique at the time, was go actually interview those already in prison, the convicted perps themselves. He noticed similarities of behaviour, and patterns of operation which they themselves described, which could be cross referenced to certain kinds of crimes....

.... paired with the forensic clues left at the scene; all to narrow the field of possible suspects when there were simply too many to consider at any one time.

He began to notice that the people already in prison for a vast array of specific crimes, displayed common behaviours for individual specific crimes. I simply do not remember Douglas singling out racial groupings - except for some classes of crimes which were rarely done cross-racially.

This did not solve the crime, per se, but it helped police rule out whole classes of people. If a certain kind of crime was seldom done cross-racially, then the cops could narrow their search for potential perps of the same race.

Douglas was up front that this was not 100% predictive - it was merely putting into place the reality of who was already in jail for certain kinds of offenses, and all he did was note the similarities of behaviours and backgrounds of those people already in jail.

It still did not get the police off the hook to solve the crime, and assemble legitimate evidence. Douglas-style profiling is only a tool, and if it as a tool is leading investigators in the wrong direction it needs to be ditched.

For instance; if his profiling observed that one kind of crime almost never occurred cross-racially, he would never in a million years criticize an investigation which just so happened, in that case, to have unimpeachable evidence point to something different. That's not what his style of profiling is about.

My gripe with you, Samson, is the way you used the word "solve" in the same sentence as those probabilities.But back to the point. The Kercher murder was never about race. The only reason Machiavelli harps on about race, is because he assumes that the innocentisti are motivated by AK's whiteness meaning goodness, and Rudy Guede's blackness being about badness.

That's a lot of tripe. Guede is guilty and uniquely guilty because his is the evidence which solves the crime - his DNA is in the victim, and forensics pointing to AK and/or RS simply are not there.

But the only reason why we're even talking race is first and foremost because of Giuliano Mignini trying to play the race card at trial, and dealing it from the bottom of the deck. He was using it as a cover for a failing prosecution.....

...... the proof, for me, is that even the convicting judges did not believe him.

It's proof, for me, that the on-line version of guilters are really Migninians. They're less concerned with Meredith Kercher than with defending Mignini from 23 false persecutions in a row, beginning with the Narducci affair. AK and RS were simply the last two in that string of prosecutorial persecutions Mignini engaged in....

..... and appears to be getting off scott-free within Italy for, because of the power of the PMs in that country.

This case is not about profiling, it's not about race, it's about the evidence, and the guilters inability to describe how three people could have done this, with two sets of forensics missing.

No wonder they wish to talk about race!!! It's why Mignini brought it up in the first place.
I guess I am less sensitive to these matters because I work with people of all races. For example I have an arrangement with which I have no concern with a Maori from the Cook Islands right now, and yet he spent many years in jail for violent crime, before removing himself from gang affiliations and P manufacture. He is an exceptional and highly reliable operator. I will make specific inquiries to ascertain his upbringing from interest, to see what parallels may exist with Rudy, but I would have no hesitation in preferring his profile as a person of interest over Amanda's for the crime we are discussing. It is beyond my power of imagination to see otherwise. My investigative model, when presented with Amanda as suspect, would be to tick the innocent box asap because the probabilities are a priori overwhelming that she did not kill, and that a strong male did. This would be a responsible and economic path to follow in my seat of the pants detective work.
I cannot show contrition at this point for seeming to be racist, but will shift ground happily when persuaded by a new statistical model.
 
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In answer to Machiavelli, Numbers, griffinmill and Bill W,

I was talking about probabilities, and these must be assessed to help solve the crime expeditiously. When there is equal opportunity for a young black male, and a young white female to kill with a knife, while all possibilities must be allowed, the statistics are overwhelming, and it will be asinine stupidity to suspect the female, but rather regard it as a sensible course to eliminate her as a suspect.

The young black male has physical strength, biological.
This one has declared that knives are his means of self defence, thus a willingness to use, Milan.
His shoeprints palm print are in blood beside the victim.

By the time we go to trial, to conclude Amanda used the knife gets us into this infernal mess against probability, habit, and direct evidence.

To use statistics about race to help solve the crime may be applied racism, but what has that got to do with me?

As for the suggestion American statistics are unuseful, that may be so. I have no information there, but I doubt very much they are independent of Italian stats.

This is utter crap, Samson.
 
In answer to Machiavelli, Numbers, griffinmill and Bill W,

I was talking about probabilities, and these must be assessed to help solve the crime expeditiously. When there is equal opportunity for a young black male, and a young white female to kill with a knife, while all possibilities must be allowed, the statistics are overwhelming, and it will be asinine stupidity to suspect the female, but rather regard it as a sensible course to eliminate her as a suspect.

The young black male has physical strength, biological.
This one has declared that knives are his means of self defence, thus a willingness to use, Milan.
His shoeprints palm print are in blood beside the victim.

By the time we go to trial, to conclude Amanda used the knife gets us into this infernal mess against probability, habit, and direct evidence.

To use statistics about race to help solve the crime may be applied racism, but what has that got to do with me?

As for the suggestion American statistics are unuseful, that may be so. I have no information there, but I doubt very much they are independent of Italian stats.

1. You and I don't have those statistics for the US, let alone for Italy. While there might be some evidence of "race" in the DNA or hair left by the perpetrator at a crime scene, in this case only the forensic police have that information. The crime is not merely a homicide, but a specific event with evidence.

2. The US statistics are definitely independent of the Italian ones. To believe otherwise would be racist, because the only commonality of African Americans and sub-Saharan African immigrants to Italy would be (perceived) skin color. There is actually considerable variation in DNA in Africa, and it is incorrect to lump African populations together because of skin color.

African-Americans in the US have relatively high homicide rates, but this is related to social and economic class (more relative poverty among African-Americans than European-Americans), gangs and turf wars, and other issues, such as the ready availability of guns. The majority of African-Americans are descended from slaves brought to the US, and even after slavery was ended by the American Civil War and the adoption of the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution, African-Americans were subjected to discrimination and mistreatment. African immigrants to Italy do not have these US historical or current social and economic conditions, so their behavior can not be linked to that of US African-Americans by statistics.

To follow-up on point 1 above:

The "naked eye" evidence of Meredith's murder demonstrates that she was attacked - including sexually assaulted, based on the removal of clothing - by a strong and physically aggressive male. The window climb also implies some minimum height and arm strength. The rock throw to break the window implies some good hand-eye coordination and strength. None of this "naked eye" evidence suggests anything about the "race" or nationality of the perp.

But the perpetrator was certainly a relatively strong, coordinated, sufficiently tall (minimum height and arm length could probably be estimated from the top of bottom window to start of upper window) male who was psychologically capable of physical violence toward women.

ETA: For the height estimation, one may also need to account for possible use as foot holds by the perp of the nail(s) in the brickwork above the window.
 
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This is utter crap, Samson.

I have to agree. Why hand people something that can validate their incessant polemic against Amanda's supporters?

The argument is that Guede is more likely to be a killer because of his race.

That is indeed racist thinking, in that an individual is being judged by the color of his skin. This is why so many innocent black people get railroaded in the US.

As for US statistics, we Americans have inherited a history. Our policies as a society generated social problems that are reflected in statistics. Fairness requires that each individual be judged on his/her own accord and not be saddled with the weight of social problems or statistics.

End of lecture.

The physical evidence shows that Guede killed Meredith, and his race is not a factor.

The crime scene shows Guede's criminal M.O. Again, race is not a factor.
 
I have to agree. Why hand people something that can validate their incessant polemic against Amanda's supporters?

The argument is that Guede is more likely to be a killer because of his race.

That is indeed racist thinking, in that an individual is being judged by the color of his skin. This is why so many innocent black people get railroaded in the US.

As for US statistics, we Americans have inherited a history. Our policies as a society generated social problems that are reflected in statistics. Fairness requires that each individual be judged on his/her own accord and not be saddled with the weight of social problems or statistics.

End of lecture.

The physical evidence shows that Guede killed Meredith, and his race is not a factor.

The crime scene shows Guede's criminal M.O. Again, race is not a factor.
Once again, I am discussing probabilities of black male versus white female plunging the knife.

This is independent of questions of other railroadings and miscarriages.
 
Once again, I am discussing probabilities of black male versus white female plunging the knife.

This is independent of questions of other railroadings and miscarriages.


My opinion:

I don't think it's correct to use racial profiling as any sort of justification for a belief in Guede's guilt and Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence. In that respect, I think you were wrong.

But you DO have a valid point in a broader sense. It's ridiculous to suggest that the statistics you quoted (notwithstanding the difficulties in comparison between US demographics and Italy demographics) are utterly irrelevant in any wider examination of this murder, and it's also ridiculous to suggest that the police/PM shouldn't at least have been mindful of this sort of research.

Let's take another well-known example to illustrate the point. Airports routinely select travellers to screen more thoroughly for concealed weapons/IEDs etc. Much of their selection is done on racial and psychological profiling. They are therefore more likely to select young men travelling either on their own or in a small group of young men than they are an elderly lady or a family with two young children. That's common sense, backed up by empirical research.

Similarly, this sort of profiling can be profitably used by police as a way of focussing on certain suspects. It's really very similar to the way in which, where a woman in a relationship has been murdered, police almost always devote a large part of their resources to investigating the woman's partner. That's because the evidence shows that in a large proportion of such murders, the woman's partner is the perpetrator.

But (and it's a massive "but") none of this can of course be used as actual evidence against anyone. It's merely an investigative tool, to decide where to best direct resources. Investigators still have to find solid evidence in order to pursue a prosecution. So in the end, I agree with others who say that your argument is moot when it comes to arguing Guede's guilt and Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence. That argument has to be ENTIRELY based on the actual evidence - and lack of evidence. And all the evidence (and lack of evidence) points firmly to Guede as sole perpetrator, and to the non-involvement of Knox and Sollecito.
 
My opinion:

I don't think it's correct to use racial profiling as any sort of justification for a belief in Guede's guilt and Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence. In that respect, I think you were wrong.

But you DO have a valid point in a broader sense. It's ridiculous to suggest that the statistics you quoted (notwithstanding the difficulties in comparison between US demographics and Italy demographics) are utterly irrelevant in any wider examination of this murder, and it's also ridiculous to suggest that the police/PM shouldn't at least have been mindful of this sort of research.

Let's take another well-known example to illustrate the point. Airports routinely select travellers to screen more thoroughly for concealed weapons/IEDs etc. Much of their selection is done on racial and psychological profiling. They are therefore more likely to select young men travelling either on their own or in a small group of young men than they are an elderly lady or a family with two young children. That's common sense, backed up by empirical research.

Similarly, this sort of profiling can be profitably used by police as a way of focussing on certain suspects. It's really very similar to the way in which, where a woman in a relationship has been murdered, police almost always devote a large part of their resources to investigating the woman's partner. That's because the evidence shows that in a large proportion of such murders, the woman's partner is the perpetrator.

But (and it's a massive "but") none of this can of course be used as actual evidence against anyone. It's merely an investigative tool, to decide where to best direct resources. Investigators still have to find solid evidence in order to pursue a prosecution. So in the end, I agree with others who say that your argument is moot when it comes to arguing Guede's guilt and Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence. That argument has to be ENTIRELY based on the actual evidence - and lack of evidence. And all the evidence (and lack of evidence) points firmly to Guede as sole perpetrator, and to the non-involvement of Knox and Sollecito.
Of course this is what is interesting. If we eliminate the epithet racial, and continue with the term profiling, the debate is defused. Immediately we can reconfigure by discussing sensible use of taxpayer's money in pursuit of offenders.
 
Some truly ignorant and racist posts here. No surprise.

------------------------------------------------

Moving right along:


At the website www.perugiamurderfile.org they've brought up the Frazier v. Cupp ruling.

Interesting stuff:

http://www.criminalattorney.com/news/police-can-lie-to-you/

And:

http://reid.com/reid_topics/trickery.html


Ahaha. "Jackie" is a mendacious moron (and very probably a struck-off lawyer) :)

"Frazier v Cupp" is totally irrelevant to our case. Why? Because the issue in our case is the role of the interpreter. Don't the idiots realise that had the police interrogators been suggesting traumatic amnesia (and they very possibly were), that would be a totally different kettle of fish. The critical point in the case of Knox is that the interpreter was acting outside her remit.

Someone in Knox's position had the reasonable right to suppose that the interpreter was a neutral third party - even if she was employed by the police force. She was there purely (and exclusively) to ensure that the content and meaning of the police's questions were properly understood by Knox, and vice versa. It's the fact that the interpreter injected herself into the interrogation as an active participant that's the problem.
 
Some truly ignorant and racist posts here. No surprise.

------------------------------------------------

Moving right along:


At the website www.perugiamurderfile.org they've brought up the Frazier v. Cupp ruling.

Interesting stuff:

http://www.criminalattorney.com/news/police-can-lie-to-you/

And:

http://reid.com/reid_topics/trickery.html

Really. You're interested in a 1969 US case? Well, ok, whatever floats your boat. If you like that stuff, there's a ton of them. My favorite is the copy machine trick.

We're talking about a 2007 Italy/ECHR case here, though.
 
Ahaha. "Jackie" is a mendacious moron (and very probably a struck-off lawyer) :)

"Frazier v Cupp" is totally irrelevant to our case. Why? Because the issue in our case is the role of the interpreter. Don't the idiots realise that had the police interrogators been suggesting traumatic amnesia (and they very possibly were), that would be a totally different kettle of fish. The critical point in the case of Knox is that the interpreter was acting outside her remit.

Someone in Knox's position had the reasonable right to suppose that the interpreter was a neutral third party - even if she was employed by the police force. She was there purely (and exclusively) to ensure that the content and meaning of the police's questions were properly understood by Knox, and vice versa. It's the fact that the interpreter injected herself into the interrogation as an active participant that's the problem.

Well, there's also the fact that the ECHR guarantees access to an interpreter, and the dead white guys forgot to write that in the US Constitution.
 
Some truly ignorant and racist posts here. No surprise.

------------------------------------------------

Moving right along:


At the website www.perugiamurderfile.org they've brought up the Frazier v. Cupp ruling.

Interesting stuff:

http://www.criminalattorney.com/news/police-can-lie-to-you/

And:

http://reid.com/reid_topics/trickery.html

It's odd that the Migninians bring up these old US cases as though they apply to a 2007 Italian case which would be covered by the European Convention of Human Rights and ECHR case-law, which would not allow the police actions described for the US cases.

Another oddity is that when it's pointed out that the Italian courts did not force discovery of the prosecution best evidence, as would be generally required in the US (Brady rule), for example, the Electronic Data Files for the DNA testing, Migninians will state that the US laws and procedures don't apply in Italy. They are now trying to have it both ways. Actually, there is ECHR case-law requiring potentially exculpatory written and/or electronic data to be supplied by the prosecution to the defense.
 
It's odd that the Migninians bring up these old US cases as though they apply to a 2007 Italian case which would be covered by the European Convention of Human Rights and ECHR case-law, which would not allow the police actions described for the US cases.

Another oddity is that when it's pointed out that the Italian courts did not force discovery of the prosecution best evidence, as would be generally required in the US (Brady rule), for example, the Electronic Data Files for the DNA testing, Migninians will state that the US laws and procedures don't apply in Italy. They are now trying to have it both ways. Actually, there is ECHR case-law requiring potentially exculpatory written and/or electronic data to be supplied by the prosecution to the defense.

There have been at least 1,495 exonerations recorded in the US since 1989. The reasons for this include the US police tactics described in the sites:

http://www.criminalattorney.com/news/police-can-lie-to-you/

http://reid.com/reid_topics/trickery.html

See: The National Registry of Exonerations for details
http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/about.aspx
 
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