Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[LondonJohn]

Regarding the palm print of Rudy Guede on the pillow case, I found this in the trial transcripts of 2008-05-08 page 174:

PRIVITERA GILJSEPPE: Why we made comparisons and did not appear to none this footprint, to any person, or as part of the list, nor comparisons that we made with the system of initiative Afis; clearly the fact which was then identified with this subject is because this person was not fotosegnalata, is was when fotosegnalata is was arrested; then we have sent the prints and we made comparisons; we had no footprints this person; was only given the usefulness of the fragment. DEFENSE ACCUSED PROMPT (AVV.BONGIORN0): Was given? PRIVITERA GIUSEPPE: Only the utility.​

My interpretation of Google's translation is that the print was compared against those of a list of suspects as well as an AFIS search and came up negative. After Rudy was arrested a comparison was made to Rudy and found to match.

This would imply that Rudy was not on the list of suspects in the early days and the palm print played no part in his identification.

Well first off, this Google translation reads rather like gobbledegook. DO you have the original Italian?

Regardless, I agree with your analysis. That is to say, the police tried to computer-match the palm print to their own national database, and they also tried to match it to the Interpol AFIS database. They got no match from either. But this transcript does appear to say - as you point out - that the sending of the print to Rome for matching via the immigration database only came after Guede was arrested.

So if this is accurate, then we have to ask what it was that drew the police/PM to Guede. We can rule out DNA, since we can be confident that Guede's DNA was not on any database for matching at that point. We can rule out witness identification (that we know of....). We can rule out any other form of forensic matching (e.g. hair, shoe print, blood, etc).

That only really leaves an informant of some sort. We know that his friend Benedetti went to the police and informed them that he (Benedetti) had been in contact with Guede and that Guede had been discussing his presence at the murder. Is this the first thing that drew the police/PM to Guede? Or did this other person - Stefano Bonassi, who apparently went to the police as early as 4th November with information about Guede's involvement - play a far bigger role in focussing the police/PM onto Guede.

I'd really like to know why the Bonassi angle didn't come up more at trial. After all, if the police (and presumably PM) were given Guede's name as early as 4th November - before the "breaking" of Knox and Sollecito, remember - then why did this information apparently play no role in those infamous 5th/6th November interrogations?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Tulia, Texas and some problems with lineups; Frimpong and DNA

David Marriott is way out in front on this. He decided to diffuse the whole racism issue by paying bonuses this year to those who would support persons of color who were wrongly accused/convicted. I figured out how to go back in time (see this and this), and he quadrupled my bonus (what a guy). I was able to trade in my Kia for this. Vroom!

 

[Numbers]

My view is just because white people were responsible for Marxism, Darwinism, Fascism, Atomic bombs, Colonialism, the Holocaust, the US constitution and Quantum theory, it does not mean that because Knox is white she should be assumed to be guilty.

Planigale,

Thank you again for your support of the rationalist position.

 

[carbonjam72]

Originally Posted by Dan O.
Regarding the palm print of Rudy Guede on the pillow case, I found this in the trial transcripts of 2008-05-08 page 174:
PRIVITERA GILJSEPPE: Why we made comparisons and did not appear to none this footprint, to any person, or as part of the list, nor comparisons that we made with the system of initiative Afis; clearly the fact which was then identified with this subject is because this person was not fotosegnalata, is was when fotosegnalata is was arrested; then we have sent the prints and we made comparisons; we had no footprints this person; was only given the usefulness of the fragment. DEFENSE ACCUSED PROMPT (AVV.BONGIORN0): Was given? PRIVITERA GIUSEPPE: Only the utility.

My interpretation of Google's translation is that the print was compared against those of a list of suspects as well as an AFIS search and came up negative. After Rudy was arrested a comparison was made to Rudy and found to match.

This would imply that Rudy was not on the list of suspects in the early days and the palm print played no part in his identification.

Well first off, this Google translation reads rather like gobbledegook. DO you have the original Italian?

Regardless, I agree with your analysis. That is to say, the police tried to computer-match the palm print to their own national database, and they also tried to match it to the Interpol AFIS database. They got no match from either. But this transcript does appear to say - as you point out - that the sending of the print to Rome for matching via the immigration database only came after Guede was arrested.

So if this is accurate, then we have to ask what it was that drew the police/PM to Guede. We can rule out DNA, since we can be confident that Guede's DNA was not on any database for matching at that point. We can rule out witness identification (that we know of....). We can rule out any other form of forensic matching (e.g. hair, shoe print, blood, etc).

That only really leaves an informant of some sort. We know that his friend Benedetti went to the police and informed them that he (Benedetti) had been in contact with Guede and that Guede had been discussing his presence at the murder. Is this the first thing that drew the police/PM to Guede? Or did this other person - Stefano Bonassi, who apparently went to the police as early as 4th November with information about Guede's involvement - play a far bigger role in focussing the police/PM onto Guede.

I'd really like to know why the Bonassi angle didn't come up more at trial. After all, if the police (and presumably PM) were given Guede's name as early as 4th November - before the "breaking" of Knox and Sollecito, remember - then why did this information apparently play no role in those infamous 5th/6th November interrogations?

LJ: I can understand you're interpreting the google translate lingo to read literally as "Then", meaning after. But I'm uncertain that's a correct translation. Here's why -

The word "Then" could mean a change of the subject context to an earlier time, which is how I read it because of the phrasing:

..."then we have sent the prints and we made comparisons; we had no footprints this person; was only given the usefulness of the fragment. DEFENSE ACCUSED PROMPT (AVV.BONGIORN0): Was given? PRIVITERA GIUSEPPE: Only the utility."
If the phrases "usefulness of the fragment" and "utility" are not referring to the partial palm print, which we've seen LJ fished out from previous posts, then what can it be referring to? What interpretation for the words "usefulness" and "utility" can be possible, if its referring to samples after Rudy has been detained.

Usefulness of matching Rudy to the palm print at the scene of the crime? Or useful in identifying Rudy as the owner of the palm print, and therefore identifying him as a suspect.

Putting this together with the posts from Frank S, which interpretation is "globally consistent" (i.e. osmotic and possibly even organic).

 

[Kaosium]

For you, and most commentators here, no doubt.

But I think it may very well be an important factor in understanding the way it has been treated by officials in Italy and media around Europe.

If you go back a few pages to where Methos and I linked/pasted Mignini's arguments from his close before Micheli (Rudy Guede's trial which led to Amanda and Raffaele being committed to trial) you'll see Mignini made an argument similar to the one you posted about. From the google translate of this page which begins immediately after where I posted the excerpt that ended "Obviously, the minds of this transaction are, however, in Italy, not in the United States" and ends right before the translated script begins. If you recall from our previous posts he's denouncing the commentators who thought Amanda and Raffaele innocent of Rudy Guede's crime in making that argument:

"They said, mostly from 9,000 miles away, less frequently by 5000, perhaps even without knowing a word of the acts of the proceedings nor the complexity of legal language Italian: we understood everything. From here, we understood everything: there is only one responsible, the black boy, others have nothing to do. We'll tell you.

I was shocked and baffled by this attitude. It 'the first time I came across it and I do not think I will be still in front of such presumption and superficiality.

A little experience, prudence, caution should prevent similar summary judgments, cast by 5,000, but more often even from 9,000 miles away.

And all this without spending a single word about the fact that the custodial orders have been confirmed in all their assumptions by the Court of Review and the First Criminal Chamber of the Supreme Court!

Overflight of other, even more serious, incredible and repeated episodes of interference. I will just say that would be inconceivable in Italy and we are certainly not a perfect country.

We Italians, like all peoples of this world, more or less, we have our faults. And one of them, in my opinion, the biggest and the most limiting, is the foreign things and self-pity, serious limitation: the idea that others do better and that the systems of others are better and should necessarily be imitated . The reality and the experience of this story justice - media should suggest instead greater realism and discernment.

Indeed, I believe that good and bad are widely distributed among all the peoples of this world, and that everyone should adopt systems, especially legal, conforming to their own identity and their own history, without necessarily imitate others.

No one, in Italy, it would be allowed to denigrate and attack with such impudence and shamelessness to investigators, for example, US. With us there is the sport, now increasingly in vogue, to attack however and wherever the Italian magistrates, especially the Public Prosecutor, but no journalist, for example, Italian, to no operator legal Italian would dream of defaming and slandering an American prosecutor who is investigating an accused Italian. No one, and rightly so. To these, yes, and how! And not only the prosecutor but also the GIP, also the Court of Review and also the judges of the Supreme Court who shared in full all the conditions of the arrest warrants!

And today, on these ordinances and judgments, dropped the tombstone (the defendants) the definitive and incontestable.

You can agree or not, but no one, in Italy and elsewhere can afford to say that the two defendants against Knox and Sollecito (which are those for which he beats the drum media) there is evidence to justify his detention and that the 'only one that merits the prison is the "bad guy", the black boy who obviously does not enjoy many sponsors internationally.

It has sought the brawl .. .the provocation, hoping that it could reach something positive for Knox and Sollecito and why you could download all the colored boy to whose defense is credited with an absolute professional integrity."​

I'd forgotten he included this tribute to Rudy Guede's lawyers, contrasting their 'absolute professional integrity' with the perversity of Amanda and Raffaele's defenders. This screed is more about Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi who were amongst the first to question Mignini's theory because of previous contact with Mignini rather than Amanda and Raffaele's lawyers who at this juncture--October of 2008--haven't done much being as Amanda and Raffaele were not (officially...) on trial yet, though Mignini would later 'start investigations' on two of the defense lawyers, amongst the two dozen or so extraneous 'investigations' (more the threat of charges and being wiretapped as a part of the 'investigation') he threatened in the course of this case, about half of them against journalists, which if you follow the CPJ link you can see is part of his history and you can see just why Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi might have been wary of Mignini.

At any rate he's probably so happy with Walter Biscotti's office (Rudy Guede's lawyers) because they played ball with him and gave him what he needed and didn't 'disrupt' his 'investigation' by widely declaring his client's innocence and questioning his methods and conclusions like the defenders of Raffaele Sollecito (he wiretapped the Sollecitos and had charges filed on five of them for a case that was still going through the Italian Courts last I heard) and Amanda Knox. Note at this juncture (October 28, 2008--which the CPJ referred to as when Amanda and Raffaele were 'indicted') there's been very little outside confronting the characterization (by Mignini but more so the local Perugian Polizia di Stato) of Amanda Knox as a wanton slut and her parents repeating the allegation that she was abused in police hands (from John Follain's Times of London article of June 15, 2008 which would lead to charges on them and again a case that's still going through the courts) outside what Mario Spezi and Douglas Preston had said about their previous treatment at Mignini's hands.

As you can see, Mignini would very much like the press to take the line that defenders of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are motivated by racial prejudice and if they don't he'll start 'investigations' and file charges against them if they dare oppose him.

 

[Bill Williams]

If you go back a few pages to where Methos and I linked/pasted Mignini's arguments from his close before Micheli (Rudy Guede's trial which led to Amanda and Raffaele being committed to trial) you'll see Mignini made an argument similar to the one you posted about.

The ONLY significance of the racism-card, which Mignini tried to deal from the bottom of the deck, is as a diversion from his own accountability.

What is revealing is that with the exception of Hellmann's court, the Italian judiciary does not seem likely to ever hold a PM to account. Whatever Hellmann's shortcomings, he seems the only one who will be honest that this is now a political trial... not one based on evidence. (That is the ONLY way to explain Nencini's nonsense.)

Mignini was allowed to run roughshod over 20 innocent people in the Monster of Florence affair, he was allowed to run roughshod over Spezi and Preston, which makes AK and RS victims #22 and #23 of Mignini's specialty. That specialty is:

...... creating giant mythological campaigns of pseudo-evidence against people. In this case, it includes the race-card.

It is telling in what is quoted is that Mignini is making a rearguard, anticipatory defence of himself; seemingly anticipating what could go wrong with how he's constructed things. He doth protest too much.

It is irrelevant how the race-card is used in this thread - whether as a diversion or whatever for our own merry band of commentators - both innocentisti and pro-guilt lobby. Sometimes I think it is solely so that folk can say inflated, righteous-like things against those who they are convinced are racists.

The more important point is that Mignini used it as a way to explain things about the case at hand, even before they seemingly needed explanation.

And this was the guy who said to Amanda at her interrogation that he would transcribe her words, as if only a notary, presumably to do her a favour. You see, he thought that the whole interrogation process had lifted a great burden from her; and he was genuinely concerned about what he assumed was her fear of Lumumba.

Add to this is kindness towards her to allow her to keep talking, where he should contrarily know that all suspects enjoy a right to silence, and the presence of a lawyer.... Mignini knows they do not enjoy the right to the kindnesses Mignini in fact did offer her....

... because what Knox got (as confirmed by Machiavelli in this very thread) was a translator who was very, very, very concerned that Knox did not even know what to talk about. So Anna Donnino, the translator, helped Knox fill in the content....

..... so that Mignini could record it with no direction from himself. He was only a notary, and Donnino was a mediator.

Lucky Amanda.

You see, it is just like us racists on this thread to fail to appreciate the favour Mignini and his crew was doing for the poor Seattleite. Not to mention for Raffaele who got dragged into this, and still has no answer to his question:

"What's any of this got to do with me?"

The race discussion on this thread notwithstanding, the race-card is and always has been a diversion of responsibility.... from Mignini.

 

[Samson]

If you go back a few pages to where Methos and I linked/pasted Mignini's arguments from his close before Micheli (Rudy Guede's trial which led to Amanda and Raffaele being committed to trial) you'll see Mignini made an argument similar to the one you posted about. From the google translate of this page which begins immediately after where I posted the excerpt that ended "Obviously, the minds of this transaction are, however, in Italy, not in the United States" and ends right before the translated script begins. If you recall from our previous posts he's denouncing the commentators who thought Amanda and Raffaele innocent of Rudy Guede's crime in making that argument:

"They said, mostly from 9,000 miles away, less frequently by 5000, perhaps even without knowing a word of the acts of the proceedings nor the complexity of legal language Italian: we understood everything. From here, we understood everything: there is only one responsible, the black boy, others have nothing to do. We'll tell you.

I was shocked and baffled by this attitude. It 'the first time I came across it and I do not think I will be still in front of such presumption and superficiality.

A little experience, prudence, caution should prevent similar summary judgments, cast by 5,000, but more often even from 9,000 miles away.

And all this without spending a single word about the fact that the custodial orders have been confirmed in all their assumptions by the Court of Review and the First Criminal Chamber of the Supreme Court!

Overflight of other, even more serious, incredible and repeated episodes of interference. I will just say that would be inconceivable in Italy and we are certainly not a perfect country.

We Italians, like all peoples of this world, more or less, we have our faults. And one of them, in my opinion, the biggest and the most limiting, is the foreign things and self-pity, serious limitation: the idea that others do better and that the systems of others are better and should necessarily be imitated . The reality and the experience of this story justice - media should suggest instead greater realism and discernment.

Indeed, I believe that good and bad are widely distributed among all the peoples of this world, and that everyone should adopt systems, especially legal, conforming to their own identity and their own history, without necessarily imitate others.

No one, in Italy, it would be allowed to denigrate and attack with such impudence and shamelessness to investigators, for example, US. With us there is the sport, now increasingly in vogue, to attack however and wherever the Italian magistrates, especially the Public Prosecutor, but no journalist, for example, Italian, to no operator legal Italian would dream of defaming and slandering an American prosecutor who is investigating an accused Italian. No one, and rightly so. To these, yes, and how! And not only the prosecutor but also the GIP, also the Court of Review and also the judges of the Supreme Court who shared in full all the conditions of the arrest warrants!

And today, on these ordinances and judgments, dropped the tombstone (the defendants) the definitive and incontestable.

You can agree or not, but no one, in Italy and elsewhere can afford to say that the two defendants against Knox and Sollecito (which are those for which he beats the drum media) there is evidence to justify his detention and that the 'only one that merits the prison is the "bad guy", the black boy who obviously does not enjoy many sponsors internationally.

It has sought the brawl .. .the provocation, hoping that it could reach something positive for Knox and Sollecito and why you could download all the colored boy to whose defense is credited with an absolute professional integrity."​

I'd forgotten he included this tribute to Rudy Guede's lawyers, contrasting their 'absolute professional integrity' with the perversity of Amanda and Raffaele's defenders. This screed is more about Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi who were amongst the first to question Mignini's theory because of previous contact with Mignini rather than Amanda and Raffaele's lawyers who at this juncture--October of 2008--haven't done much being as Amanda and Raffaele were not (officially...) on trial yet, though Mignini would later 'start investigations' on two of the defense lawyers, amongst the two dozen or so extraneous 'investigations' (more the threat of charges and being wiretapped as a part of the 'investigation') he threatened in the course of this case, about half of them against journalists, which if you follow the CPJ link you can see is part of his history and you can see just why Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi might have been wary of Mignini.

At any rate he's probably so happy with Walter Biscotti's office (Rudy Guede's lawyers) because they played ball with him and gave him what he needed and didn't 'disrupt' his 'investigation' by widely declaring his client's innocence and questioning his methods and conclusions like the defenders of Raffaele Sollecito (he wiretapped the Sollecitos and had charges filed on five of them for a case that was still going through the Italian Courts last I heard) and Amanda Knox. Note at this juncture (October 28, 2008--which the CPJ referred to as when Amanda and Raffaele were 'indicted') there's been very little outside confronting the characterization (by Mignini but more so the local Perugian Polizia di Stato) of Amanda Knox as a wanton slut and her parents repeating the allegation that she was abused in police hands (from John Follain's Times of London article of June 15, 2008 which would lead to charges on them and again a case that's still going through the courts) outside what Mario Spezi and Douglas Preston had said about their previous treatment at Mignini's hands.

As you can see, Mignini would very much like the press to take the line that defenders of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are motivated by racial prejudice and if they don't he'll start 'investigations' and file charges against them if they dare oppose him.

This exerpt from wikipedia

Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[1]
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[1]

stark in its simplicity for signalling very strong probability, should be rammed down the throats of Mignini Massei and Nencini, for concluding that Amanda rather than Rudy slit Meredith's throat, even had they had equal opportunity, which of course Amanda had none anyway.

A discussion of racism is ridiculous without including probability and statistics IMO, yet merely stating this can leave me open to wild misinterpretation of what I may believe. So be it.

 

[Samson]

More PMF posting about the "groupies" here.

I believe it is the 'AK was a suspect immediately' dribble at the moment. Tricky when those dang suspects come in on their own... and will not leave.

How about a killer on the loose? If it was Amanda she may choose to stay out of the way of the police, if not, she may perceive their premises to be a safe house.

 

[LondonJohn]

More PMF posting about the "groupies" here.

I believe it is the 'AK was a suspect immediately' dribble at the moment. Tricky when those dang suspects come in on their own... and will not leave.

How about a killer on the loose? If it was Amanda she may choose to stay out of the way of the police, if not, she may perceive their premises to be a safe house.

Exactly. Most (erm, all?) people who who have just committed a murder do not volunteer to go to a police station unless and until they are ordered to do so.

Ah but of course this was Knox with her "Captain Amanda" hat on! She obviously thought: "Ha! The last thing the police would expect the killer to do would be to show up and hang around at the police HQ when not ordered to do so. Therefore I shall double-bluff them by doing just that! Ha ha! Clever, devious me!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!"

 

[Kauffer]

How scientific results are verified in the real world

"A Japanese stem cell scientist at the heart of a scandal over false claims and fabricated research has resigned. Dr Haruko Obokata published supposedly groundbreaking research showing stem cells could be made quickly and cheaply."

This is an astonishing story, which has been developing throughout the year and follows on from the publication of Dr Obokata's paper in the respected "Nature" journal.

So, there are false claims and fabrication of evidence uncovered by review following unrestricted access to the data and the subsequent unrepeatability of results by experiment.

Isn't this the way that claims are supposed to be evaluated? What is anyone supposed to conclude in situations where scientists hide their data?

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30534674

For those who are interested, here is the retraction published by "Nature", which links to the original article by Dr Obokata, together with the investigation report.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v511/n7507/full/nature13599.html

 

[Diocletus]

More PMF posting about the "groupies" here.

I believe it is the 'AK was a suspect immediately' dribble at the moment. Tricky when those dang suspects come in on their own... and will not leave.

How about a killer on the loose? If it was Amanda she may choose to stay out of the way of the police, if not, she may perceive their premises to be a safe house.

Shouldn't the old ladies be discussing knitting, or cats, or old men or something.

Anyway, here's an answer for them: at the latest, she was a suspect after the oral portion if the 1:45 interrogation concluded, but before she signed the cops' typed up statement.

Eta: I see the old ladies are busy making little men out of straw. Fun.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a notable notary and a diversionary dealer

The ONLY significance of the racism-card, which Mignini tried to deal from the bottom of the deck, is as a diversion from his own accountability.

SNIP

The race discussion on this thread notwithstanding, the race-card is and always has been a diversion of responsibility.... from Mignini.

That's a nice way of putting it.

 

[Machiavelli]

This exerpt from wikipedia

Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[1]
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[1]

stark in its simplicity for signalling very strong probability, should be rammed down the throats of Mignini Massei and Nencini, for concluding that Amanda rather than Rudy slit Meredith's throat, even had they had equal opportunity, which of course Amanda had none anyway.

This is exactly what I define as racism.

A discussion of racism is ridiculous without including probability and statistics IMO, yet merely stating this can leave me open to wild misinterpretation of what I may believe. So be it.

I interpret this way of using "statistics" exactly as racism.
By the way, apparently this was not the only mistake you make with probabilities. But as some important scientist said, there are two kinds of lies: lies, and statistics. It is very possible to misuse statistics and doing so infer false information, as a consequence of incorrect assessment methods.

 

[Numbers]

Don't be so averse to relevant facts and statistics.

Homicide[edit]According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites (per 100,000), and the victim rate 6 times higher (per 100,000). Most murders were intraracial, with 84% of white homicide victims murdered by whites, and 93% of black victims murdered by blacks

Offenders

Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90% of the total number of offenders.[1]
Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[1]
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[1]

Of all the idiocy your lot espouse, it is the wilfully ignoring of strong probabilities that is most irritating.

This exerpt from wikipedia

Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[1]
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[1]

stark in its simplicity for signalling very strong probability, should be rammed down the throats of Mignini Massei and Nencini, for concluding that Amanda rather than Rudy slit Meredith's throat, even had they had equal opportunity, which of course Amanda had none anyway.

A discussion of racism is ridiculous without including probability and statistics IMO, yet merely stating this can leave me open to wild misinterpretation of what I may believe. So be it.

This is exactly what I define as racism.



I interpret this way of using "statistics" exactly as racism.
By the way, apparently this was not the only mistake you make with probabilities. But as some important scientist said, there are two kinds of lies: lies, and statistics. It is very possible to misuse statistics and doing so infer false information, as a consequence of incorrect assessment methods.

Samson's quotations of homicide rates, which are derived from the US experience, are not evidence of racism. However, they are irrelevant, because the US and Italy have different population structures in terms of identifiable groups. Specifically, African immigrants in Italy have not been exposed to the same history and current social and economic conditions as African-Americans.

It is completely correct that the number of murders committed by females, and in particular where the victim is another female, and rape is involved, is extraordinarily rare.

To presume that one can predict the "race" or gender of a criminal on the basis of statistics is erroneous. One can possibly estimate the probabilities of the "race" or gender of the criminal, but only evaluation of credible evidence can provide any reliable information.

There is no credible evidence of the presence of Amanda Knox in the room where Meredith Kercher was murdered and raped. The alleged Meredith Kercher DNA evidence on the knife from Raffaele Sollecito's kitchen is, at best, the product of contamination, although forensic fraud is highly likely. That is why it is absolutely clear to objective and rational persons that Amanda Knox was not involved in the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher.

The DNA of Rudy Guede was found inside Meredith Kercher, on her clothing, and on her purse, according to the forensic police. Footprints made by shoes of the type he wore, made in Meredith's blood, were found in the cottage, including on a pillow left under Meredith's body. His palm and finger prints in Meredith's blood were found in her room. The cottage was entered by means of a broken window located over a grating that was readily climbable by a person who was adequately tall and strong. Guede apparently had used that method in at least one previous burglary. Thus, Rudy Guede is the murderer and rapist of Meredith Kercher. His African origin and skin color are not indicators of his guilt or of any prior suspicion that could be directed toward him.

 

[griffinmill]

Samson's quotations of homicide rates, which are derived from the US experience, are not evidence of racism. However, they are irrelevant, because the US and Italy have different population structures in terms of identifiable groups. Specifically, African immigrants in Italy have not been exposed to the same history and current social and economic conditions as African-Americans.

It is completely correct that the number of murders committed by females, and in particular where the victim is another female, and rape is involved, is extraordinarily rare.

To presume that one can predict the "race" or gender of a criminal on the basis of statistics is erroneous. One can possibly estimate the probabilities of the "race" or gender of the criminal, but only evaluation of credible evidence can provide any reliable information.

There is no credible evidence of the presence of Amanda Knox in the room where Meredith Kercher was murdered and raped. The alleged Meredith Kercher DNA evidence on the knife from Raffaele Sollecito's kitchen is, at best, the product of contamination, although forensic fraud is highly likely. That is why it is absolutely clear to objective and rational persons that Amanda Knox was not involved in the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher.

The DNA of Rudy Guede was found inside Meredith Kercher, on her clothing, and on her purse, according to the forensic police. Footprints made by shoes of the type he wore, made in Meredith's blood, were found in the cottage, including on a pillow left under Meredith's body. His palm and finger prints in Meredith's blood were found in her room. The cottage was entered by means of a broken window located over a grating that was readily climbable by a person who was adequately tall and strong. Guede apparently had used that method in at least one previous burglary. Thus, Rudy Guede is the murderer and rapist of Meredith Kercher. His African origin and skin color are not indicators of his guilt or of any prior suspicion that could be directed toward him.

As expected, Samson's racist assertions are glossed over before a reaffirmation of FOA talking points about the case that have nothing to do with Samson's racist assertions.

 

[Bill Williams]

As expected, Samson's racist assertions are glossed over before a reaffirmation of FOA talking points about the case that have nothing to do with Samson's racist assertions.

What I agree with you, griffinmill, is that the "talking points" have nothing to do, really, with Samson's intent - as least as I understand it.

Numbers is correct - the real problem is that Samson is applying apples to oranges. To use those statistics to profile people of a certain ethnicity is racist. Unless I am reading him wrong, the intent is not to profile.

In this case, though, there is no doubt on either side of the issue that Rudy Guede was the killer. He's the only person on the planet to have his DNA found inside the victim, and in that race is not an issue. He's the only person on the planet who has not disputed his own presence at the cottage that night, and in that race is not an issue.

The problem on this thread is the race-baiting going on; the continual reference to it, when it is completely irrelevant to the core issues of this case.

Mignini started the race-thing as a way to divert - and THAT is racist. He made an impassioned speech about "poor Rudy", trying to divert attention from himself - playing the race-card; as do the pro-guilt lobby here in this thread.

The point is that race is irrelevant to this. Rudy's escalating criminal background IS relevant. Samson's post is a complete non sequitor. The most unfortunate part of his post his that he seems to be taking you seriously.

 

[Numbers]

As expected, Samson's racist assertions are glossed over before a reaffirmation of FOA talking points about the case that have nothing to do with Samson's racist assertions.

The racial emphasis - the race card - in this case has always been that coming from Mignini and in support of him, the guilters - many of whom are Migninians.

There is also an anti-American card played by Mignini and his followers.

The evidence in the case has everything to do with who is responsible for Meredith Kercher's murder and rape. The evidence shows that the person responsible - solely responsible - is Rudy Guede. There is no issue of race or nationality in the evidence. Those issues were used by Mignini in his attempt to sway public opinion and the judgment of the Italian judiciary away from reason. The Migninians continue to repeat those absurdities like the playground bullies that they figuratively are.

 

[Bill Williams]

The racial emphasis - the race card - in this case has always been that coming from Mignini and in support of him, the guilters - many of whom are Migninians.

There is also an anti-American card played by Mignini and his followers.

The evidence in the case has everything to do with who is responsible for Meredith Kercher's murder and rape. The evidence shows that the person responsible - solely responsible - is Rudy Guede. There is no issue of race or nationality in the evidence. Those issues were used by Mignini in his attempt to sway public opinion and the judgment of the Italian judiciary away from reason. The Migninians continue to repeat those absurdities like the playground bullies that they figuratively are.

In my view, accusations of racism come mainly when the guilters - or in this case the Migninians - feel that the case is slipping away from them. It is a good way to generate heat when they cannot cast any light on things.

My reading of Mignini's use of the race card was when he started to get the idea that he could not longer control what the media were saying - particularly overseas. With folk like John Follain and Andrea Vogt lapping up his leaks, he could keep the lurid smears against Amanda Knox front and centre.

When that not longer worked, a couple of myths were born. One was the "race card" and his appeal for sympathy for "poor Rudy."

The other was the mythical PR Supertanker, mythically emanating from Seattle, with Gogerty-Marriott being blamed for turning the US press against Mignini.

I'll stop there, lest the ersatz accusation that this, too, is a diversion from the race-baiting that goes on amongst the pro-guilt lobby!!!!

One proof that this is Migninians doing this, is that nowhere, really, do any of the convicting courts play the race card. Not really. Certainly not Judge Massei, who actually DID blame Rudy Guede - full on - for initiating this crime. He makes specific mention that if given the choice of blaming Rudy for initiating it, or blaming AK and/or RS, it was obvious....

..... Massei said that Rudy hardly needed urging to attack Meredith. Does that make Massei racist? Acc. to you folk here, it does.

You see that's the whole thing right there - race-baiting only happens to divert attention away from Giuliano Mignini and the way he prosecuted the crime.

The diversion continues in this very thread by the predictable folk.

 

[Samson]

In answer to Machiavelli, Numbers, griffinmill and Bill W,

I was talking about probabilities, and these must be assessed to help solve the crime expeditiously. When there is equal opportunity for a young black male, and a young white female to kill with a knife, while all possibilities must be allowed, the statistics are overwhelming, and it will be asinine stupidity to suspect the female, but rather regard it as a sensible course to eliminate her as a suspect.

The young black male has physical strength, biological.
This one has declared that knives are his means of self defence, thus a willingness to use, Milan.
His shoeprints palm print are in blood beside the victim.

By the time we go to trial, to conclude Amanda used the knife gets us into this infernal mess against probability, habit, and direct evidence.

To use statistics about race to help solve the crime may be applied racism, but what has that got to do with me?

As for the suggestion American statistics are unuseful, that may be so. I have no information there, but I doubt very much they are independent of Italian stats.

 

[Samson]

This is exactly what I define as racism.



I interpret this way of using "statistics" exactly as racism.
By the way, apparently this was not the only mistake you make with probabilities. But as some important scientist said, there are two kinds of lies: lies, and statistics. It is very possible to misuse statistics and doing so infer false information, as a consequence of incorrect assessment methods.

This garbled interpretation of the correct way to assess Rudy Guede vs Amanda Knox is why your crime solution is an impossible construct, and wrong.
If my second use of statistics refers to the digestive evidence, it is only a matter of time before my proof of time of death is accepted by the American people and yours is consigned to the shredder. Unfortunately you will cheer while fatso Mignini leans back in his chair with a sigh of satisfaction as Raffaele is sent to the sex offenders' wing for a crime committed by a young black male.