Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Numbers]

Results from Google translate for "witness" noun & verb (do "witnesses" get bugged?):

Translations of witness
noun

la testimonianza= testimony, witness, evidence, proof, demonstration, deposition

testimone= witness, deponent

lo spettatore= viewer, spectator, onlooker, beholder, bystander, witness

teste= witness


verb

testimoniare= witness, testify, attest, record, depose

assistere a= attend, witness

constatare= note, observe, ascertain, witness

autenticare= authenticate, certify, witness

 

[acbytesla]

Being that Amanda almost certainly stood on that bathmat, I would argue that it is pretty likely her DNA actually would be on it.

Finding Amanda's DNA in her own home really should be a joke as opposed to evidence to be used against her in a trial.

 

[Numbers]

LOL. Truly a classic.

Mistranslation is apparently an art.
Here are some of the meanings of "the" or "gli" from a NEUTRAL translator.

Translations of gli

article

the= le, il, i, la, gli, l'

pronoun

him= lui, lo, gli, sé, colui

it= la, esso, lo, essa, ci, gli

Gli indagati. = It investigates. LOL {Not saying it's idiomatic.}

 

[carbonjam72]

Finding Amanda's DNA in her own home really should be a joke as opposed to evidence to be used against her in a trial.

Subject to the caveat of where it might be hypothetically found though. For example, inside Meredtih, or on her clothes with Meredith's blood - in the places, manner and variety as samples were found of Rudy, the idea of environmental residue starts to open the door a little bit more. Combined with other evidence as to actual whereabouts, then maybe even more so.

But no such evidence existed in this case. And that is very lucky for Amanda actually. Even though such a finding shouldn't be counted against her, seeing the intent to convict in these kangaroo courts, who doubts that it would have been claimed so.

Much as the convicting court's opinions are meritless, Hellman's was right on the money. There never should have been a trial, but under the circumstances, I think Hellman did it right.

The ISC opinion reversing Hellman, written by the 9-11 conspiracy nutbag, is obviously a sick joke. Curatolo must be believed, and science standards don't apply in Italy.

 

[anglolawyer]

LOL. Truly a classic.

What's classic is the laugh is on you and your feigned amusement doesn't hide the fact.

It's not that important whether Buratti referred to them as suspects (which he clearly did, Vibio) since he may have allowed later events to cause him to use that description but, as Mach encourages us to do, we should look at the facts. They, A & R, were bugged (from 'day 2'). Their contacts were bugged in turn. They were followed and watched (e.g. on the 5th). Raffaele's apartment was covertly entered and searched on judicial authority (according to your hero, Machiavelli). It is superfluous to add that Mach himself slipped up here and blurted out that they were already 'strongly suspected' before they showed up at the questura to find an all-night session sans warning, sans lawyer waiting for them, an off-message remark he has been rowing back from ever since he made it.

Will you address the substance of the case or continue to focus (seemingly dishonestly) on the correct translation of what Burati said?

Yours, not holding my breath ...

 

[Desert Fox]

What's classic is the laugh is on you and your feigned amusement doesn't hide the fact.

It's not that important whether Buratti referred to them as suspects (which he clearly did, Vibio) since he may have allowed later events to cause him to use that description but, as Mach encourages us to do, we should look at the facts. They, A & R, were bugged (from 'day 2'). Their contacts were bugged in turn. They were followed and watched (e.g. on the 5th). Raffaele's apartment was covertly entered and searched on judicial authority (according to your hero, Machiavelli). It is superfluous to add that Mach himself slipped up here and blurted out that they were already 'strongly suspected' before they showed up at the questura to find an all-night session sans warning, sans lawyer waiting for them, an off-message remark he has been rowing back from ever since he made it.

Will you address the substance of the case or continue to focus (seemingly dishonestly) on the correct translation of what Burati said?

Yours, not holding my breath ...

If a friendly cop tells you to get a lawyer, get a lawyer. . . .
In retrospect, when should Amanda and Raff known enough that they needed a lawyer? This whole case should be a cautionary tale.

 

[Kaosium]

Patrick's behavior can be explained in part as a reaction to the mistreatment he received from the police. As you are probably aware, he eventually left Italy and settled with his wife elsewhere in Europe (Poland, IIRC).

Yes, but that's just in part. The rest of the story suggests at some time Patrick was convinced to stop saying things like this about his experience in police hands:

"At 6.30am on Tuesday, November

6, the bell to his fourth-floor

flat in the town buzzed insistently

and a woman's voice outside

demanded he opened the door.

He had barely had time to do so

when the woman, assisted by,

Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others,

barged their way in.

"They were wearing normal

clothes and carrying guns," he says.

"I thought it must be some sort of

armed gang about to kill me. I was

terrified.

"They hit me over the head and

yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put

handcuffs on me and shoved me out

of the door, as Aleksandra pulled

Davide away, screaming."

He was greeted outside by a

convoy of seven police cars, sirens

blazing, and driven to Perugia's

police station, where he was subjected

to a ten-hour interrogation.

"I was questioned by five men and

women, some of whom punched

and kicked me," he claims. "They

forced me on my knees against the

wall and said I should be in America

where I would be given the electric

chair for my crime. All they kept

saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'

"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I

was scared and humiliated. Then,

after a couple of hours one of them

suggested they show me a picture of

'the dead girl' to get me to confess.

"It might sound naive, but it was

only then that I made the connection

between Meredith's death and my

arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I

killed Meredith?'

"They said, 'Oh, so now you've

remembered' and told me that if I

confessed I'd only get half the

30-year sentence."

For example that wasn't the description he gave at Amanda's trial. At the same time he continued to say things like from the rest of that piece about Amanda, right on cue with every major trial development and to writers like Winterbottom and Crouch who visited Perugia.

Last I heard he gave back the money the Italian Republic paid him for the wrongful arrest and imprisonment saying something absurdly positive about the police in Perugia--and as you note then fled the country and resettled in Poland where his wife was from. What is curious is how he dropped all criticism of the police and prosecutors in Perugia (including when he testified in court) after the "Soulless" Daily Mail article and spent those years pounding away at Amanda Knox in the press, including hiring a lawyer who did the same in court--complementing Mignini's and Maresca's efforts--yet (eventually....) drops all complaints against the police and prosecution, returns the money he was due because of their mistreatment of him because he's now a big supporter of the police in Perugia--but then leaves the country.

There's other explanations for this behavior but one easy way this could have happened would be for police and/or prosecutors to get something on Patrick unrelated to the murder such as taxes (or perhaps something personally embarrassing that would imperil his domestic tranquility) from a wiretap of his phones. This is a nation where wiretapping for blackmail purposes is commonplace and a case where wiretaps of the Sollecitos were used to embarrass them and charge them with trumped up crimes for their attempts to defend Raffaele.

So they may well have had a wiretap on Patrick after his release, but that's not an innocent explanation....

 

[Kauffer]

And the supreme stupidity continues.

I follow evidence - never afraid of evidence. Happy to hear your translation of and understanding of Buratti. I'm still trying to understand how it might be possible for Lumumba's bugs not to have been in place before the 5th, since he went to prison the following morning. Can you explain and set me straight?

 

[Kauffer]

-


-

And this is a valid probably innocent arguement also, in my opinion, but do you believe Rudy went into the bathroom after Meredith died? There was a discussion here a long while ago about the print, and no one was able to prove one way or the other whose print it was.

Is it at all possible he didn't go into the bathroom after Meredith died?

No need to reply Kaufer, if you don't want. It's just an interesting allusion to me and besides this is more of a BS session for me, than anything else,

d

-

No, I think he went into the bathroom. There was nobody else left alive in the apartment who could have gone into the bathroom.

 

[acbytesla]

Subject to the caveat of where it might be hypothetically found though. For example, inside Meredtih, or on her clothes with Meredith's blood - in the places, manner and variety as samples were found of Rudy, the idea of environmental residue starts to open the door a little bit more. Combined with other evidence as to actual whereabouts, then maybe even more so.

But no such evidence existed in this case. And that is very lucky for Amanda actually. Even though such a finding shouldn't be counted against her, seeing the intent to convict in these kangaroo courts, who doubts that it would have been claimed so.

I agree with the first example, not so much with the second. Finding Amanda's DNA on Meredith's clothes really shouldn't be thought of as incriminating. Maybe Meredith's underwear but not her outer clothes. We know that Amanda and Meredith were together a few hours earlier, a simple hug between the two of them could explain Amanda's DNA regardless of any blood that was deposited on Meredith's clothes later. But this doesn't matter since that wasn't found.

Much as the convicting court's opinions are meritless, Hellman's was right on the money. There never should have been a trial, but under the circumstances, I think Hellman did it right.

The ISC opinion reversing Hellman, written by the 9-11 conspiracy nutbag, is obviously a sick joke. Curatolo must be believed, and science standards don't apply in Italy.

 

[Numbers]

Yes, but that's just in part. The rest of the story suggests at some time Patrick was convinced to stop saying things like this about his experience in police hands:

For example that wasn't the description he gave at Amanda's trial. At the same time he continued to say things like from the rest of that piece about Amanda, right on cue with every major trial development and to writers like Winterbottom and Crouch who visited his bar.

Last I heard he gave back the money the Italian Republic paid him for the wrongful arrest and imprisonment saying something absurdly positive about the police in Perugia--and as you note then fled the country and resettled in Poland where his wife was from. What is curious is how he dropped all criticism of the police and prosecutors in Perugia (including when he testified in court) after the "Soulless" Daily Mail article and spent those years pounding away at Amanda Knox in the press, including hiring a lawyer who did the same in court--complementing Mignini's and Maresca's efforts--yet (eventually....) drops all complaints against the police and prosecution, returns the money he was due because of their mistreatment of him because he's now a big supporter of the police in Perugia--but then leaves the country.

There's other explanations for this behavior but one easy way this could have happened would be for police and/or prosecutors to get something on Patrick unrelated to the murder such as taxes (or perhaps something personally embarrassing that would imperil his domestic tranquility) from a wiretap of his phones. This is a nation where wiretapping for blackmail purposes is commonplace and a case where wiretaps of the Sollecitos were used to embarrass them and charge them with trumped up crimes for their attempts to defend Raffaele.

So they may well have had a wiretap on Patrick after his release, but that's not an innocent explanation....

Yes, it could be as the result of blackmail. It could also be that the blackmail or intimidation was that he could be arrested again for some reason or no reason and again subjected to mistreatment. Plus, his business could be once more closed; a "reason" could always be found. Why did the police keep his bar closed even after he was released following the Swiss professor providing him an alibi and Guede's surrender and arrest? It was a message to shut up about them mistreating him, IMO. No other blackmail necessarily required.

ETA: And the police would want to bug his phone to know that he was no longer talking to the press or other authorities about his mistreatment. The police in Italy do have their honor, and they defend that honor no matter what they need to do.

 

[Machiavelli]

So...was Lumumba's phone BUGGED OR NOT? It makes little sense for it to be bugged after he was arrested and you are saying that he wasn't bugged before it. So which is it?

There is no information about whether his phone was bugged or not, and above all there is no information about if this may have happened before the 5th or after. That after would make no sense, it's just speculation, and very unfounded imho.
And in my opinion it would also be without implication if they bugged him before Nov. 5th, but this is an opinion.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yes, it could be as the result of blackmail. It could also be that the blackmail or intimidation was that he could be arrested again for some reason or no reason and again subjected to mistreatment. Plus, his business could be once more closed; a "reason" could always be found. Why did the police keep his bar closed even after he was released following the Swiss professor providing him an alibi and Guede's surrender and arrest? It was a message to shut up about them mistreating him, IMO. No other blackmail necessarily required.

Yes, the fact that he leaves the country must be due to blackmail. It must have nothing to do with the fact that 30% of the population below 40 is jobless, his business has failed like maybe a million businesses of that size, and with the fact that Italians are the second world diaspora after Chinese.

 

[Numbers]

There is no information about whether his phone was bugged or not, and above all there is no information about if this may have happened before the 5th or after. That after would make no sense, it's just speculation, and very unfounded imho.
And in my opinion it would also be without implication if they bugged him before Nov. 5th, but this is an opinion.

{Highlighting added.}
Buggati's testimony is apparently not what it seems, according to the revelation highlighted above.

 

[Kaosium]

There is no information about whether his phone was bugged or not, and above all there is no information about if this may have happened before the 5th or after. That after would make no sense, it's just speculation, and very unfounded imho.
And in my opinion it would also be without implication if they bugged him before Nov. 5th, but this is an opinion.

Here is the confirmation that Patrick's phone was bugged:

ANSWER – the suspects by then so from day 2, starting from day 2 to follow developments of the investigative activity gradually wiretaps became authorized.

QUESTION – So Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito.

ANSWER-Yes, then let’s talk about the first interceptions, no?

QUESTION – I am not asking you in chronological order, then Rudy Guede, Lumumba?

ANSWER – Yes, Romanelli, Mezzetti.

QUESTION – Then even friends?

ANSWER – Yes.

The answerer says quite clearly there that Patrick's phone was bugged. He answers "Yes" to that question.

The person answering was Buratti, correct? Do you remember who the questioner was?

 

[Numbers]

Yes, the fact that he leaves the country must be due to blackmail. It must have nothing to do with the fact that 30% of the population below 40 is jobless, his business has failed like maybe a million businesses of that size, and with the fact that Italians are the second world diaspora after Chinese.

Also, neither Patrick nor his wife were Italian citizens. She probably wanted to go back to her home country, after their little experience in Italy.

 

[Numbers]

There is no information about whether his phone was bugged or not, and above all there is no information about if this may have happened before the 5th or after. That after would make no sense, it's just speculation, and very unfounded imho.
And in my opinion it would also be without implication if they bugged him before Nov. 5th, but this is an opinion.

{Highlighting added.}
Buggati's testimony is apparently not what it seems, according to the revelation highlighted above.

Here is the confirmation that Patrick's phone was bugged:




The answerer says quite clearly there that Patrick's phone was bugged. He answers "Yes" to that question.

The person answering was Buratti, correct? Do you remember who the questioner was?

Machiavelli and Vibio will soon explain to us that there is a problem due to mistranslation. Probably we don't understand, for example, the meaning of the word "gli", which is very rich in meanings in Italian, and also a very beautiful word.

 

[Kauffer]

Yes, the fact that he leaves the country must be due to blackmail. It must have nothing to do with the fact that 30% of the population below 40 is jobless, his business has failed like maybe a million businesses of that size, and with the fact that Italians are the second world diaspora after Chinese.

Do you think the failure of Lumumba's business had anything to do with the fact that it couldn't trade because the police shut it down? A friend of mine in Italy had her coffee shop closed down a few years ago. She refused to give the local Carabinieri free food and drink so they called the health inspectors who showed up with their own rats, let them go in the kitchens and photographed them for evidence. I kid you not!

 

[acbytesla]

Machiavelli and Vibio will soon explain to us that there is a problem due to mistranslation. Probably we don't understand, for example, the meaning of the word "gli", which is very rich in meanings in Italian, and also a very beautiful word.

Machiavelli and Vibio insistence that Lumumba wasn't bugged reminds me of this exchange from one of my favorite movies.

[Vizzini has just cut the rope The Dread Pirate Roberts is climbing up]
Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[acbytesla]

Do you think the failure of Lumumba's business had anything to do with the fact that it couldn't trade because the police shut it down? A friend of mine in Italy had her coffee shop closed down a few years ago. She refused to give the local Carabinieri free food and drink so they called the health inspectors who showed up with their own rats, let them go in the kitchens and photographed them for evidence. I kid you not!

I'm sure the Italians didn't invent organized crime and police corruption. ...

.... But it sure seems they perfected it.