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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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They are not going to argue how Hellmann reports defence words, not even what happened during interrogation. The finding of malicious crime stands as a finding itself independent from all these.

You remind me very strongly of the states attorney with the West Memphis Three case, trying to use weaseling to use the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law with regards to new evidence discovery.
 
Sorry, but coercion is a conclusion of law that is made by application of a two-part analysis of the surrounding facts. At least, that's the way it works in the ECtHR, and since Italy signed the ECHR it has a treaty obligation to make it work that way in Italy, too.

Not at all. A state of coercion means that a person is unable to self-determine their choice and is acting against his/her will.(It's a matter of fact, not law). Which is exactly the contrary of what Massei and all judges have found.
 
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They are not going to argue how Hellmann reports defence words, not even what happened during interrogation. The finding of malicious crime stands as a finding itself independent from all these.

Yes, it does. just as the finding of an Art. 6 violation will stand by itself independent of any Italian court conclusions.
 
I don't know what you're talking about, but the fact of the matter is that while, procedurally, they might have had counsel presents for some or all of Guede's proceeding, substantively, the scope and effectiveness of such "representation" was severely limited by procedural mechanisms applied by Italy. That's not real representation.

Really? You don't know what I'm talking about? Let's shorten your contorsion and summarize: the pro-Knox propaganda is a bunch of lies.
 
Not at all. A state of coercion means that a person is unable to self-determine their choice and is acting against his/her will. Which is exactly the contrary of what Massei and all judges have found.

Actually, the ECHR uses the term "incitement," which is a little different than what you are saying. It basically means that the crime wouldn't have happened without the police conduct. In this case, it seems pretty clear, since we have this:

[the interrogation was of] obsessive length. . . , carried out during [both] day and night, by more than one person, on a young and foreign girl who at the time did not speak Italian at all well, was unaware of her own rights, did not have the assistance of an attorney (which she should have been entitled to, being at this point suspected of very serious crimes), and was moreover being assisted by an interpreter who . . . did not limit herself to translating, but induced her to force herself to remember, explaining that she [Amanda] was confused in her memories . . .
 
Yes, it does. just as the finding of an Art. 6 violation will stand by itself independent of any Italian court conclusions.

By now this is imaginary. And even the imaginary grounds are still fuzzy. But on the remote event a violation is found (which?) you know that this would never lead to a non guilty verdict for calunnia. This is completely unrealistic and you know this.
 
They are not going to argue how Hellmann reports defence words, not even what happened during interrogation.

Betcha they will. They might even be thinking right now about how to make their argument sound the least ridiculous and laughable.
 
By now this is imaginary. And even the imaginary grounds are still fuzzy. But on the remote event a violation is found (which?) you know that this would never lead to a non guilty verdict for calunnia. This is completely unrealistic and you know this.

It's going to lead to the following: (i) declaration of a violation of Art. 6 (and maybe 3), (ii) restitutio in integrum, and (iii) some small monetary award. Pay attention to nos. i and ii.
 
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All of this becomes especially clear when reading all of the trial transcripts of those who were there that night. Even the line of questioning by the defense.

There was no coercion, no false memory syndrome.

Then what was it? Why were the Italian police and prosecutors the only ones to believe it really happened and would maintain that for two weeks when Amanda wrote a note later the same day saying she didn't think any of it occurred and the next day said so outright?

If you think Amanda was lying with those stupid confused statements, then why do you think the police believed it and wouldn't let Patrick go until Rudy Guede was captured?
 
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Actually, the ECHR uses the term "incitement," which is a little different than what you are saying. It basically means that the crime wouldn't have happened without the police conduct. In this case, it seems pretty clear, since we have this:

False. The ECHR does not deal with the topic of free will determination. Whether a crime is voluntary or involuntary, is not a topic of law application, but a matter of fact finding and evidence assessment. This is what determines the crime of calunnia. Incitement on the part of others would be irrelevant.
 
It's going to lead to the following: (i) declaration of a violation of Art. 6 (and maybe 3), (ii) restitutio in integrum, and (iii) some small monetary award. Pay attention to nos. i and ii.

Restitutio in integrum would mean the Cassazione ordering a new trial for calunnia, in which Knox would be found guilty.
 
False. The ECHR does not deal with the topic of free will determination. Whether a crime is voluntary or involuntary, is not a topic of law application, but a matter of fact finding and evidence assessment. This is what determines the crime of calunnia. Incitement on the part of others would be irrelevant.

Oh really, then why are there numerous ECHR cases dealing with the issue of incitement, and applying the ECHR's own substantive and procedural tests to determine the issue?
 
Restitutio in integrum would mean the Cassazione ordering a new trial for calunnia, in which Knox would be found guilty.

She couldn't be retried. Time will have run out. They will have to vacate the conviction.

Also, BTW, if the ECHR so rules, there will be zero chance of Knox ever being extradited.
 
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Really? You don't know what I'm talking about? Let's shorten your contorsion and summarize: the pro-Knox propaganda is a bunch of lies.


As a general point of order, please can you stop using the term "pro-Knox". It's unrepresentative and pejorative.

Unless you'd like me and others to start calling your arguments "anti-Knox" or even "pro-Guede"...........
 
Restitutio in integrum would mean the Cassazione ordering a new trial for calunnia, in which Knox would be found guilty.


You really can't argue back against this sort of zeal (not to mention breathtaking myopia regarding the implications of an ECHR ruling that Knox's human rights were violated in her 5/6 November interrogation).
 
Restitutio in integrum would mean the Cassazione ordering a new trial for calunnia, in which Knox would be found guilty.

But without any admissable evidence of the commission of a crime and beyond the statute of limitations anyway. I'd like to see them try.
 
No lawyer = No valid statement

You seem to be confused. The conclusion of law is that there was no "coercion" as defined by Italian law. Here are the conclusions of fact:

the interrogation was:

-of obsessive length

-carried out during [both] day and night

-carried out by more than one person

-carried out on a young and foreign girl

-carried out on a young and foreign girl who at the time did not speak Italian at all well,

-carried out on a young, foreign girl who was unaware of her own rights,

-carried out on a young, foreign girl who did not have the assistance of an attorney (which she should have been entitled to, being at this point suspected of very serious crimes),

-the interpreter did not limit herself to translating, but induced her to force herself to remember, explaining that she [Amanda] was confused in her memories.

The conclusion of law (in Italy): No coercion.
The conclusion of law under the ECHR: coercion.
{emphasis added to quote}

Diocletus,

Thanks for dividing up Hellmann's statement this way. It helps clarify the issues involved in Amanda's interrogation.

Attempting to look at the interrogation from the viewpoint of ECtHR, the primary issue may be the lack of a lawyer; I highlighted and bolded that text.

1. On its own, use by the prosecution in a trial of a statement from a subject under interrogation who does not have a lawyer present, and who has not validly waived such representation, is a violation of Convention Articles 6.3c and 6.1. That is, the trial is unfair. The term "coercion" need not be used; it is, as I understand it, assumed by the ECtHR that the absence of a lawyer during the interrogation is equivalent to coercion, or a denial of rights forcing self-incrimination.

2. In another aspect, when an interrogation employs inhuman or degrading treatment against a subject, in violation of Convention Article 3, to gain incriminating evidence, whether true or false, that is important evidence used to convict the subject at trial, then the trial in unfair - a violation of Article 6.1. {See the bottom of post 3762, #139, copied from Guide on Article 6 (Criminal Limb).} It is arguable that the interrogation techniques used on Amanda included inhuman and degrading treatment.

3. The use of subterfuge, such as practiced by the "interpreter/mediator" Donnino, on the person subjected to interrogation, Amanda, to bend his/her will and thereby elicit an incriminating statement, and use of that statement at trial for a conviction, also leads to a violation of Convention Article 6.1. {See #127 in post 3762 or in the Guide on Article 6.}

From the above, it is clear that Amanda's case against Italy regarding her conviction for calunnia before the ECtHR is very strong.

In evaluating Mach's attempts at confusing the issues, one should look at the actual case law provided by the ECtHR, as you have done.
 
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But without any admissable evidence of the commission of a crime and beyond the statute of limitations anyway. I'd like to see them try.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about the fact that the actual statement that is alleged to be the callunia would be unusable in the callunia trial. That would be the world's shortest trial.
 
Oh yeah, I almost forgot about the fact that the actual statement that is alleged to be the callunia would be unusable in the callunia trial. That would be the world's shortest trial.

Italian Judge "Evidence, who cares about evidence, burn the American %$3&^"
 
Italy breaking its own laws

She couldn't be retried. Time will have run out. They will have to vacate the conviction.
Also, BTW, if the ECHR so rules, there will be zero chance of Knox ever being extradited.

Italy could retry her even if time had run out. They would be breaking their own laws to do that, but it not physically impossible.

Italy breaks its own laws and its Constitution all the time, based on what we have observed in the Knox-Sollecito case.
 
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