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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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A conscious effort to make posts relevant to the thread is mandated by the rules, thus I may seem pedantic. However I am personally fascinated by the duplication of mob behaviour, and I disagree there are unanswered questions. Dewani Knox and Sollecito have been degraded by the lynch mob, and what better cause than to call to account the bottom feeders that are vindictive or stupid??

One of the most interesting elements of divergence in points of law was the rejection of irrelevant "character" evidence in the Dewani trial and the wholehearted embracing of such evidence in the trial of Ms Knox, as if being sexually active or buying underwear could ever have anythîng to do with serious questions of guilt or innocence. Apparently, according to Italy, having half a dozen sexual partners by the age of 20 renders you more likely to commit murder. That's a helluva lot of 20 year olds we should be putting in preventative detention in order to keep us safe then!
 
One of the most interesting elements of divergence in points of law was the rejection of irrelevant "character" evidence in the Dewani trial and the wholehearted embracing of such evidence in the trial of Ms Knox, as if being sexually active or buying underwear could ever have anythîng to do with serious questions of guilt or innocence. Apparently, according to Italy, having half a dozen sexual partners by the age of 20 renders you more likely to commit murder. That's a helluva lot of 20 year olds we should be putting in preventative detention in order to keep us safe then!
It was highlighted by case watchers that both Shrien and Ani seemed to have questioned the wisdom of going through with the marriage beforehand.
This just is not unusual, though.
What should have been considered is the very high likelihood of doubts where the families and back grounds were so disparate.
The mob adore these details, but they get dumb and dumber as they become lost in the labyrinth.
 
I'm trying to track down something.

Nencini page 221

However, the minutes of the preliminary hearing, produced from the court of first degree show that Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni, October 4, 2008, during the hearing before the G.U.P. of the Court of Perugia, in response to a specific question of one of the advisors of the accused Raffaele Sollecito, Professor Pascali, stated that the positive and negative controls existed, had been evaluated by her, and could be produced upon request [and were in fact filed at the same hearing those related to exhibit 165B), or rather the bra clasp] And the verity of this circumstance, of which a trace is found in the report filed by Dr. Stefanoni submitted as a consequence of the report signed and submitted by Vecchiotti-Conti, is shown by the fact that Professor Giuseppe Novelli continued to diligently request them and obtained them, so they could examine them, and were able to derive the absence of contamination of specimens analyzed.

I can't find that.

Page 117-118 deals with the positive and negative controls. http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2008-10-04_-_Stefanoni-OCR.pdf

QUESTION - Ok, so if I understood it correctly in your documents we can find the negative controls of the reagents but not those of the samples, I mean is this that you are telling me?
ANSWER - If with sample you mean as you said before a sample filed as exhibit [repertato], I mean a trace filed as exhibit [taken from the] same object, on the same sample, well no, we don't have them.

So where does Pascali claim to have examined them? Nencini loves quoting transcript but not regarding this....conveniently.
 
Hard to say whether deformed or not

Left: This is the piece of bra so as photographed and not reperted the night between 2 and November 3, 2007
Right: The “same” piece December 18, 2007 when reperted. The hook is further deformed. The flap of tissue visibly deteriorated

(Not allowed to post URLs yet sorry)

That is interesting but after looking at the photos for a while I came to the conclusion that it will not lead us anywhere. The conditions of the two pictures when they were taken were too different. The right photo is a bit darker and much more detailed, this may lead us to wrong conclusions. The pictures were cut out of context so important details may have been cut off (so it seems to me especially on the right site of the left picture). Finally, the photos were taken under different perspectives, which becomes clear when we look at the original photos in Hendry's aformentioned article.
It is not easy to discern wheter the hooks themselves were further deformed after November 3. I tend do think they weren't.

Nevertheless, they were severely deformed on November 3 already.

Greetings
 
Numbers

Thank you for researching and posting these ECHR cases.

In what way do you believe this case is comparable to Amanda and I assume Raffaele case?
The information you provide states the individual was a suspect. Wouldn’t the Italian judiciary state that Raffaele and Amanda were witnesses of interest, rather than suspects? Raffaele and Amanda attended the police station voluntary in response to request to clarify their previous statements. This still bugs me, given Raffaele sister at the time was Caribinieri officer, I assume she may have had, shall I say a professional appreciation of the implication of the requests, I guess Raffaele dismissed sibling advice.
I am sure I have this all wrong, is it not down to how Raffaele and Amanda were treated after they were suspects rather than the murky witnesses of interests?

The case before the ECHR is only against Amanda Knox for the calumnia conviction.

You're conflating the ECHR case over calumnia with Raffaelle's position is curious.

Do you believe the statements taken from Ms Knox at that time, in that way, without a lawyer, without a neutral interpreter, at the point of physical/emotional/mental collapse, elicited by a pre-planned tag team overnight interrogation, for which no recording or transcript has been produced, and includes allegations of physical violence against a young woman with little to no Italian language skills?

Its just amazing to me that anyone supports the tactics used in this case, against these defendants. From coerced confessions, suppressed and manufactured evidence, bogus tramp coached witnesses, fake experts, lying corrupt judges.

Not exactly a credit to modernity this case.

What is it about this case you actually find credible? I mean, apart from the court's use of official stationary somehow lending credence to otherwise nonsensical opinions?
 
Here's another case for the Remedial ECHR Law course:

CASE OF MATYTSINA v. RUSSIA 58428/10 27/03/2014

Relevance: Conviction after acquittal; Evaluation & admissibility of expert evidence

Summary {excerpts}:

The applicant was an instructor at an institution that provided elements of yoga, special breathing techniques, mantra singing, meditation, listening to music, aromatherapy and other similar practices. Participants were recommended to follow a certain diet and do exercises at home. The intent was to promote a "healthy lifestyle." There was no tuition or fee required, but contributions were requested. The institution had applied for a government license as a sports facility but was denied it on the grounds that yoga, breathing techniques, etc. were not sports or health-improving activities and in any event were not listed in the Unified Russian Register of Sports Activities.

A young woman, S.D., and her twin sister took a series of courses at the institution. S.D. contributed the equivalent of 20 EUR to the institution. At a certain point, S.D. started to develop psychological problems and was eventually diagnosed as suffering from psychosis, with some psychiatrists but not all who examined her stating she had schizophrenia.

According to the applicant, S.D.'s mother, a fervent Orthodox Christian, claimed that the institution was a sect and attributed S.D.'s psychiatric illness to the activities she engaged in at the institution. According to the doctors at the clinic where Ms S.D. was treated, her mental condition was related to her participation in the programmes of the association, which was referred to in the medical record of 2 July 2002 as a “sect”. Later entries in her medical record also mentioned the “religious” character of her delusions. Following the admission of Ms S.D. to the clinic, an internal inquiry was conducted, which concluded that her medical condition was of a “religious and occult nature” and had been caused by her participation in the programmes of the association.

On 24 July 2003 an investigator from the Khabarovsk Region police force questioned Ms S.D. in connection with the events of April-June 2002. According to her testimony, the association received payment from the participants of the programme; the programme consisted of breathing techniques, listening to audio-recordings of the voice of the guru, and other similar practices which Ms S.D. characterised as brainwashing. Ms S.D. testified that she had almost stopped eating completely during the period she was attending the courses because the teachers had told her that food was poison. She had also dropped out of her course at the university. At some point she had lost track of the events and had returned to her normal self only in the clinic.

The Russian prosecutor asked for several psychiatric experts to examine S.D., and also for opinions from several experts as to whether the institution was practicing medicine without a license.

On 26 November 2004 the applicant was formally charged with practicing medicine without a license. She pleaded not guilty from the first questioning.

Other experts, solicited by the applicant's lawyer, opined that these practices were not at all medical and criticized the prosecution's expert reports.

There was a trial at first-level and the applicant was acquitted on 23 July 2007. In particular, the court concluded that the applicant and Ms M.S. f(a co-defendant) had not realised that their activities might fall within the ambit of medical practice or that they could have been harmful to the health of others. The court also found that the programmes of the association did not amount to medical practice.

The court excluded from evidence the expert reports of the prosecution as incomplete, self-contradictory and unreliable.
The prosecution appealed.
On 20 December 2007 the acquittal was quashed by the Regional Court and the case was referred back to the trial court. The Regional Court disagreed with the assessment of evidence by the trial court, and with its decision to declare some evidence, namely, expert reports, inadmissible. The Regional Court also pointed to various procedural shortcomings in the trial proceedings.

In the new trial, the expert opinions of the prosecution were admitted and full value given to them. However, those of the defense were not admitted, for technical reasons relating to Judge M's interpretation of Russian law.

The applicant and her co-defendant were convicted in this retrial. The defence appealed. They complained, in particular, that judge M. had based the judgment on the testimony of witnesses he had not heard in person. They also complained about the refusal of the trial court to admit expert opinions submitted by the defence in evidence and obtain a new expert examination of the condition of Ms S.D. On 25 March 2010 the Regional Court sustained the conviction; it did not find any breach of the domestic substantive or procedural law in the proceedings before the trial court.

The ECtHR Opinion:

205. Again, the Court is not well placed to indicate to the national judge the best course of action. Judge M. had several options: for example, he could have obtained a fresh expert examination of the matter, could have allowed the defence to submit a written opinion by one of their “specialists”, or could have examined Dr A.’s written report or his oral submissions. Instead, Judge M. contented himself with relying on the same written opinions by the prosecution’s experts which had earlier been rejected by another judge as inadmissible, unreliable and inconclusive, that is, without any meaningful verification of their credibility.

206. In sum, the Court concludes that, insofar as the handling of expert evidence concerning the nature of the activities of the association was concerned, the defence was placed in a disadvantageous position vis-à-vis the prosecution and the proceedings were not truly adversarial. That situation is contrary to the requirements of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.

207. The Court is mindful of the fact that Judge M. heard a number of witnesses for the defence, examined several expert opinions and studied various documents. However, the question of whether or not the defence enjoyed “equality of arms” with the prosecution and whether the trial was “adversarial” cannot be addressed solely in quantitative terms. In the present case it was very difficult for the defence to effectively challenge the expert evidence submitted to the court by the prosecution. The Court stresses that the case against the applicant was built upon that expert evidence. In those circumstances, the way in which expert evidence was handled made the applicant’s trial unfair. Therefore, the Court does not need to address the other procedural violations alleged by the applicant.

208. On the strength of the above the Court concludes that there has been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.

Was Amanda charged with performing surgery without a license?
 
Numbers,

Nice find. Thanks for your hard work.

Numbers' research of ECHR pertinent decisions is invaluable. What it demonstrates to me is that this case cannot survive ECHR scrutiny. There have been multiple breaches of Article 6. The question now is all about whether the ISC will pull back from the brink, or whether, later, they will be humiliated.
 
Most of us here believe Amanda and Raffaele to be innocent. We generally agree that the crime scene photos and evidence tell a clear story: Meredith was overpowered by an attacker (Guede) who grabbed her from behind, threw her to the floor after a brief struggle, and cut her throat with a knife held in his right hand. He then dragged her into the middle of the room and sexually assaulted her.

<snip>

Hi Charlie Wilkes,
Whoever stabbed Meredith had a lot of blood on him.
Was blood found on the button and zipper of Meredith's blue jeans?
Was blood found on her black lace underwear also?

The guy should have left fingermarks, like on the wall or at least some blood if on these 2 clothing items if he undressed and sexually assaulted her after stabbing her. Or did he go clean up 1st? Or take of his gloves?
 
Hi Charlie Wilkes,
Whoever stabbed Meredith had a lot of blood on him.
Was blood found on the button and zipper of Meredith's blue jeans?
Was blood found on her black lace underwear also?

The guy should have left fingermarks, like on the wall or at least some blood if on these 2 clothing items if he undressed and sexually assaulted her after stabbing her. Or did he go clean up 1st? Or take of his gloves?

Who cares? There is time and date stamped evidence of Guede in Ms Kercher's room and on and in her body - plenty. He admits he was there and he admits going into the bathroom. The case we are discussing is the case against Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito. Guede has been convicted and no one else is or will be tried for the murder. There is no meaningful evidence against anyone other than Guede.
 
<snip>
AND, Rudy was captured on the CCTV walking to and from, and to again the cottage - BY HIMSELF. So if he was with someone else, when did he met up with them?


Hi Carbonjam72,
A few years ago, Danceme, RoseMontague, myself and others really dug into the CCTV/Rudy Guede stuff.

Comparing the shoes, the jacket, Perugia Shock noted that the dude seen walking had a different gait compared to Rudy's distinctive walk.
Most who know of this believe that is not Rudy heading towards Meredith from the parking garage.

Heck,
don't most people already have Rudy inside her flat when she comes home?
If so, that's not Rudy on the CCTV...
 
Hi Carbonjam72,
A few years ago, Danceme, RoseMontague, myself and others really dug into the CCTV/Rudy Guede stuff.

Comparing the shoes, the jacket, Perugia Shock noted that the dude seen walking had a different gait compared to Rudy's distinctive walk.
Most who know of this believe that is not Rudy heading towards Meredith from the parking garage.

Heck,
don't most people already have Rudy inside her flat when she comes home?
If so, that's not Rudy on the CCTV...

So what? We know Guede was there. He admits it. We don't need CCTV to place him at the crime scene. It's hardly as if he maintains he was having supper with his investment broker at the time Ms Kercher was killed.
 
Hey Kaufer,
Havin' a great Monday, I hope?
I am, as I'm getting ready to head to the beach in a moment.
Who cares, So what!
Pfffft.
:D


A question for you,
for it appears that you seem to know it all.

Was Miss Kercher stabbed from the front, or behind?

It seems that Amanda's forensic expert and Raffale's forensic expert could not agree on this.
Care to tell us interested folks what really happened and how do you know so?


Here's an interesting passage from a book I own,
which I like to keep in mind when know-it-alls tell me what happened in Meredith Kercher's bedroom.

Forensic expert Vincenzo Pascali quit in May, leaving a big hole in the Sollecito team...
<snip>
He was replaced by Francesco Introna, a close friend of Raffaele's father and a brilliant Pugliese scholar who spoke English to the foreign press. During his testimony, Introna dramatically plunged a knife into the neck of a mannequin to prove his point to the jury. He testified that Meredith was killed by just one person, Rudy Guede, who grabbed her from behind and stabbed her in the neck.

A month later, Amanda's own forensic expert, Carlo Torre, told the court that yes, Meredith had been killed by one person, Rudy Guede, but that she had been stabbed from the front. If the defense experts could not even agree on the details of the murder, what hope was there for the jury to take their side?*

See ya,
RW

(*) - Angel Face, pages 154-155
 
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Hey Kaufer,
Havin' a great Monday, I hope?
I am, as I'm getting ready to head to the beach in a moment.
Who cares, So what!
Pfffft.
:)


A question for you,
for it appears that you seem to know it all.

Was Miss Kercher stabbed from the front, or behind?

It seems that Amanda's forensic expert and Raffale's forensic expert could not agree on this. Care to tell us interested folks what really happened and how do you know so?


Here's an interesting passage from a book I own,
which I like to keep in mind when know-it-alls tell me what happened in Meredith Kercher's bedroom.

Forensic expert Vincenzo Pascali quit in May, leaving a big hole in the Sollecito team...
<snip>
He was replaced by Francesco Introna, a close friend of Raffaele's father and a brilliant Pugliese scholar who spoke English to the foreign press. During his testimony, Introna dramatically plunged a knife into the neck of a mannequin to prove his point to the jury. He testified that Meredith was killed by just one person, Rudy Guede, who grabbed her from behind and stabbed her in the neck.

A month later, Amanda's own forensic expert, Carlo Torre, told the court that yes, Meredith had been killed by one person, Rudy Guede, but that she had been stabbed from the front. If the defense experts could not even agree on the details of the murder, what hope was there for the jury to take their side?*

See ya,
RW

(*) - Angel Face, pages 154-155

What does this have to do with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and the case against them? What outstanding question in the case against the already convicted Rudy Guede does this relate to? The mechanics of the movement of Guede in the course of killing Ms Kercher really don't interest me because they are not relevant to the question of the guilt or innocence of either the protagonist or the wrongfully convicted. If Guede was not the only person in the room when Ms Kercher was killed or indeed not the only other person in the flat, then show me some convincing physical evidence. The idea that more than one assailant is responsible and yet there is cast iron evidence only against one, is utterly preposterous. I am interested in the merits or otherwise of criminal convictions not in tangential matters.
 
Pascali and the lack of discovery

MichaelB,

Pascali asked for certain data in 2008, but based on Bongiorno's remarks, I do not believe that he received it. Bongiorno referred to problems relating to discovery in 2009 and 2010 in remarks before the court and in Raffaele's appeal. IIRC one of Pascali's issues was the lack of peak height data on the grams (I can look into this further if people are interested. I can say that the quality of the egrams I was able to obtain improved greatly in 2011, which is at least consistent with the claims of lack of discovery earlier in the case.

In the passage above, "she" seems to refer to Mrs. Stefanoni, if I am reading it correctly. Patrizia Stefanoni's testimony about the results of the negative controls has been shown by empirical means to be worthless: One, we know from the Leiterman case that lab workers may speak falsely about such results. Two, we know that there exist evidence of contamination apart from the negative controls, yet Stefanoni claimed to have no contamination events in seven years. This adds to her list of misstatements.
 
(Not allowed to post URLs yet sorry)

That is interesting but after looking at the photos for a while I came to the conclusion that it will not lead us anywhere. The conditions of the two pictures when they were taken were too different. The right photo is a bit darker and much more detailed, this may lead us to wrong conclusions. The pictures were cut out of context so important details may have been cut off (so it seems to me especially on the right site of the left picture). Finally, the photos were taken under different perspectives, which becomes clear when we look at the original photos in Hendry's aformentioned article.
It is not easy to discern wheter the hooks themselves were further deformed after November 3. I tend do think they weren't.

Nevertheless, they were severely deformed on November 3 already.

Greetings


Here are the originals in context:
attachment.php
 
Then you certainly could show us a picture of the undeformed hooks. I could not find and do not remember any.

On injusticeinperugia, there is an article A visual inspection of the bra clasp by Ron Hendry. Compare for exemple picture 2 with picture 4 shown there.
Picture 2 shows the deformed hook, it was taken "as it was initially found". So the deformation had taken place before this photo was taken.
Obviously no deformation had been occurred between Nov. 2/3 and Dec. 18.

Greetings

The difference may be more in the amount of dirt or debris on the hooks than the degree of deformation. I wrote that from memory rather than looking at comparison photos at the time of writing. It's possible that the deformation of the hook occurred when the bra was being pulled off by Guede, and not by being stepped on.
 
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Numbers

Thank you for researching and posting these ECHR cases.

In what way do you believe this case is comparable to Amanda and I assume Raffaele case?

The information you provide states the individual was a suspect. Wouldn’t the Italian judiciary state that Raffaele and Amanda were witnesses of interest, rather than suspects? Raffaele and Amanda attended the police station voluntary in response to request to clarify their previous statements. This still bugs me, given Raffaele sister at the time was Caribinieri officer, I assume she may have had, shall I say a professional appreciation of the implication of the requests, I guess Raffaele dismissed sibling advice.

I am sure I have this all wrong, is it not down to how Raffaele and Amanda were treated after they were suspects rather than the murky witnesses of interests?

The case before the ECHR is only against Amanda Knox for the calumnia conviction.

You're conflating the ECHR case over calumnia with Raffaelle's position is curious.

Do you believe the statements taken from Ms Knox at that time, in that way, without a lawyer, without a neutral interpreter, at the point of physical/emotional/mental collapse, elicited by a pre-planned tag team overnight interrogation, for which no recording or transcript has been produced, and includes allegations of physical violence against a young woman with little to no Italian language skills?

Its just amazing to me that anyone supports the tactics used in this case, against these defendants. From coerced confessions, suppressed and manufactured evidence, bogus tramp coached witnesses, fake experts, lying corrupt judges.

Not exactly a credit to modernity this case.

What is it about this case you actually find credible? I mean, apart from the court's use of official stationary somehow lending credence to otherwise nonsensical opinions?

The calunnia case that will come before the ECtHR only applies to Amanda.
Thus, the first judgment relating to interrogation without a lawyer will apply to her calunnia case specifically.

However, Raffaele was also interrogated without a lawyer Nov. 5/6, 2007. This violation of Article 6.3c of the Convention would come up before the ECtHR if the larger murder/rape becomes finalized with a conviction.

The Council of Europe States and their agents, including the domestic (Italian) courts are, by the terms of the Convention, required to enforce its provisions - ensuring that the human rights of individuals, including defendants - are respected. The CSC should, if it is to follow the solemn obligations Italy has undertaken in signing the Convention, examine the interrogation without lawyers and other issues of unfairness before finalizing the case. But the CSC has already failed in this respect regarding Amanda's calunnia case.
 
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Was Amanda charged with performing surgery without a license?

Thanks for bumping the post describing the Matytsina v Russia case.

The relevance is shown in the emphasized (highlighted, bolded) text. The convicting judge arbitrarily ignored expert witness opinion favorable to the defense and arbitrarily admitted other expert witness opinion, which a previous judge had found unreliable and thus inadmissible, favorable to the prosecution.

This was a violation of the "equality of arms" required by the European Convention on Human Rights, and thus resulted in an unfair trial.

These issues are the elements of similarity with the case of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
 
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