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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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See page 82 and following of the Practical Guidance on Admissibility for "Manifestly ill-founded" explained. Note that "4th-instance" means "appeal beyond the highest domestic court" which isn't what ECtHR does.

380. Manifestly ill-founded complaints can be divided into four categories: “fourth-instance” complaints, complaints where there has clearly or apparently been no violation, unsubstantiated complaints and, finally, confused or far-fetched complaints.

We are aware of 384. below. But then consider 385.
I like 385.! An applicable exception to 4th instance - manifestly ill-founded complaints.

384. In the light of the above considerations, the Court may not, as a general rule, question the findings and conclusions of the domestic courts as regards:
− the establishment of the facts of the case;
− the interpretation and application of domestic law;
− the admissibility and assessment of evidence at the trial;
− the substantive fairness of the outcome of a civil dispute;
− the guilt or innocence of the accused in criminal proceedings.

385. The only circumstance in which the Court may, as an exception to this rule, question the findings and conclusions in question is where the latter are flagrantly and manifestly arbitrary, in a manner which flies in the face of justice and common sense and gives rise in itself to a violation of the Convention (Sisojeva and Others v. Latvia (striking out) [GC], § 89).
 
We are aware of 384. below. But then consider 385.
I like 385.! An applicable exception to 4th instance - manifestly ill-founded complaints.

384. In the light of the above considerations, the Court may not, as a general rule, question the findings and conclusions of the domestic courts as regards:
− the establishment of the facts of the case;
− the interpretation and application of domestic law;
− the admissibility and assessment of evidence at the trial;
− the substantive fairness of the outcome of a civil dispute;
− the guilt or innocence of the accused in criminal proceedings.

385. The only circumstance in which the Court may, as an exception to this rule, question the findings and conclusions in question is where the latter are flagrantly and manifestly arbitrary, in a manner which flies in the face of justice and common sense and gives rise in itself to a violation of the Convention (Sisojeva and Others v. Latvia (striking out) [GC], § 89).

The arbitrary judicial reasoning, the systematic denial of defense requests for the production of evidence, and the injection into the Knox - Sollecito trials of the Guede fast-track trial results - which were not subject to examination by the defense - all point to admissibility of application for the larger murder-rape case if CSC finalizes a guilty verdict.
 
This is baffling. Why does the pro-guilt lobby think they need to add "oomph" to the two convicting courts?

Two theories:

For some pro-guilt speakers I think it's like the phenomenon of Catholics who are "more Catholic than the Pope". In theory being Catholic is about following a set body of rules, but emotionally for some people it's about tradition, exclusivity, harshness and so forth and the more you exemplify those traits the more Catholic you are.

In theory being pro-guilt just means believing that as a matter of fact it is beyond reasonable doubt that Knox and Sollecito has something to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher. Emotionally for some it's about working themselves into a frothing frenzy of hate where absolutely everything Knox or Sollecito ever say or do is proof that they are guilty and also the worst people in the universe.

Alternatively, in the case of the Machiavelli collective, what we are seeing is the weird and unfiltered world of Italian law enforcement via Mignini, a florid and fanciful universe where reason of any kind is entirely optional. The Massei and Nencini verdicts are the result of Italian judges being forced to try to corral the fever-dream mess Mignini develops into some kind of logical shape. As a result, while those verdicts are nuts by our standards they are sweet sanity compared to what Mignini and cohorts actually argued for in court and actually believe.
 
Information about the Committee of Ministers of CoE and supervision of redress in ECtHR cases finding violations:

http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/execution/Presentation/Pres_Exec_en.asp

Supervision of the execution of judgments and decisions
of the European Court of Human Rights

Member states have undertaken to comply with final judgments of the European Court of Human Rights (the Court) finding violations of the European Convention of Human Rights (the Convention), as well as with Court decisions taking note of friendly settlements (see Articles 46 and 39.4 of the Convention).

The adoption of the necessary execution measures is supervised by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, made up of representatives of the governments of the 47 member states, assisted by the Department for the Execution of Judgments of the Court (Directorate General of Human Rights and Rule of Law).

The states have a legal obligation to remedy the violations found but enjoy a margin of appreciation as regards the means to be used. The measures to be taken are, in principle, identified by the state concerned, under supervision of the Committee of Ministers. The Court can assist the execution process, in particular through the pilot-judgment procedure (used in case of major structural problems).

Measures to be taken may relate to the individual applicant or be of a general nature.

Individual measures
Execution measures must first put an end to the violation and remedy, as far as possible, its negative consequences for the applicant.

This implies the payment of any sum awarded by the Court as just satisfaction or agreed between the parties in a friendly settlement. Default interest is due in case of late payment.

When mere monetary compensation cannot adequately erase the consequences of a violation, the Committee of Ministers makes sure that the authorities take any other individual measures which may be required to remedy the violation. The judgments themselves contain on occasion additional recommendations.

Examples of individual measures taken
Restoration of contacts (subject to the best interest of the child) between children and parents unduly separated from them (e.g. in case of children placed in foster care or kidnapped by the other parent).

Reopening of unfair criminal proceedings

General measures
Execution of judgments also requires general measures to prevent violations similar to those found by the Court (whether through changes of legislation, case law or through other kinds of measures). Ensuring the effectiveness of domestic remedies is an important concern.

Where domestic authorities give direct effect to the Court's judgments and jurisprudence, publication and dissemination of the judgments, where necessary translated and commented, is frequently sufficient to achieve necessary changes and to ensure effective domestic remedies.



Examples of general measures taken
Introduction of effective remedies against excessive length of court proceedings.

Removal of discrimination against children born out of wedlock (e.g. in inheritance matters).
_____
To review pending cases, see:

http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/execution/Reports/pendingCases_en.asp
 
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<snip>
You want to validate the idea there was more people than Rudy involved or participating in the attack on Meredith. So you're willing to attribute any traces in the cottage as also attributable to the murder (Nencini did this too, but only in regard to Amanda), in spite of the fact that those traces cannot be dated, and in this instance, cannot even be specifically identified.

Smudgy fingerprints that can't be identified don't suggest anything, or at least nothing reliable.
<snip>


Hi CarbonJam72,
I seem to look at this horrible case in different ways than you, I suppose, for many reasons, ok?

Amanda and Raff were not involved.

Let's say you were asaulted and murdered.
Your fingerprints and any family members were found and id'd too.

As were the main suspect.

How many smudged unattibuated fingerprints would be found in your bedroom, on your bedroom door, on your underwear drawer, on your closet clothes doors, on your kitchen sink near where knives are?

13 is a lot.
They suggest to me at least that someone else mighta been involved.
Or that the crime scene was contaminated, right?
I mean who pulled open Laura's underwear drawer and left it open.
It almost seems like someone was interrupted in a search for something...


Speaking of knives,
was every single knife from the upstairs girls flat accounted for?
Or could this not be done?

Just wonderin'...
RW
 
-


_

I do believe that was her original intent, but by the end of that last session where they got that statement, I don't believe she still believed she was innocent and was beginning realize that maybe she was in a bit of trouble here, but that's my opinion.

As far as going to Mignini's office, that is a classic, bad cop, good cop scenario, which is also my opinion,

d

-
ETA: Amanda did say (paraphrasing) that she didn't hate Mignini, that she believed he was only doing his job, or something to that affect.

-

Its where the system is a failure, when people get "interrogated" like this and those results are at least suspicious.

Who was it Napoleoni or Lovely Rita, who wanted to bring them in before Amandas mom showed up? They hurried to get a confession to close the case.
It was all planned, in the evening, when people are tired and exhausted. Not recorded, etc.etc.. we all know the other perspective of the interrogation.

Was the result a lie, or coerced? Coerced meaning a manipulated outcome, via bullying, intimidation, or other abnormal means.

Assigned by Judge Massei, the "Italy legal system" did nothing wrong in the interrogation, per Migninni. For some guiltards this is good enough and therefore Amanada lied, for others its a toilet bowl of foul play.

Due to Hellman also joining in on the "lie" being legally solid, I dont see the SCS disagreeing with a unanimous vote of all three judges. I wonder how many times the SCS would review a unanimous decision of the lower courts?
 
<snip>
The fact that there are only Rudy's footprints in Meredith's blood, should tell you only one person assaulted Meredith. Only Rudy's fingerprints in blood, and his DNA (which had no innocent explanation for his having directly deposited it), should tell you Rudy was the only person there at the time of the attack.

Now, if a second person were involved in the robbery with Rudy, but did not physically participate in the murder, but were for example in the cottage, or waiting outside, then that is at least possible (not contradicted by evidence). But what evidence is there to suggest this is true?

What would such a second person be doing when Rudy decides to drop a deuce in the large bathroom, and Meredith comes home?

Is it Koko's car parked outside that has you hooked on this "sidetracking"? He claims he evaded the deadly trio by throwing olives at their ringleader Amanda. These are not master criminals.
<snip>


ILE did a good job of Smoke and Mirrors.

Focus on how weird Kokomani is weird, his story unbelieveable.
Not that he was in the vicinity that night.
Not that he knew Rudy Guede.
Not that Barbie Nadeau writes it a coulpa times in her book that Hekuran was a drug informant for the local police.
Or that he showed up to court in a hoody, wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses. (Gotta keep those other investigations goin' right?)

Question for you:
Do you believe that Rudy broke into the Lawyers Office alone?

I don't.
He most likely had a partner, I recall reading years ago on LMT's blog on the local Perugia Scene, it's possible that the break-in was planned, as they were looking for something. Someone disconnected part of the burglar alarm. What did this person do afterwards, hang out outside and look out? Or enter and help ransack the place?

I seem to recall reading that someone saw a car similar to Koko's in the yard of the Meredith's flat the next morning, before the cops got there. Didn't this person testify in court about it too? Strange...

Also strange is the recent CCTV video shown this year in Italy that had all the people looking towards the cottage the night before when Meredith was murdered.

And strange too is the whole Downstairs Scene, which folks agued for years that it did not have anything to do with the murder...

In my opinion, ILE did a good job of Smoke and Mirrors,
only releasing information that they felt was important enough to prove their case, what PM Mignini believed...
 
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More about the CoM of CoE and how redress doesn't work if the state doesn't really cooperate:

http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitorin...tateCode=ALB&SectionCode=ENHANCED+SUPERVISION

44023/02 - CAKA v. Albania (leading)
Case description: The cases in this group concern violations of the Convention arising from unfair criminal proceedings which led to the conviction of the applicants to terms of imprisonment and, as regards the recent judgment Kaciu and Kotorri, use of evidence obtained as a result of torture, ill-treatment by the police and lack of access to a lawyer during custody.
____
There are several cases in this group where there were interrogations without lawyers, torture or mistreatment, and other forms of misconduct. I posted on some of these cases in ISF as some of the violations of rights paralleled the Knox-Sollecito ones.

So far Albania, the respondent state, has not complied very well with the ECtHR and CoM in providing redress. Albania does state that it is trying to enact a law to permit retrials when the ECtHR finds violations. However, at last report, a number of the unfairly tried individuals are still in prison and have not received new trials. See the website listed above for the detailed (and longer) report from the CoM.
 
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Smudgy fingerprints that can't be identified don't suggest anything, or at least nothing reliable.

The fact that there are only Rudy's footprints in Meredith's blood, should tell you only one person assaulted Meredith. Only Rudy's fingerprints in blood, and his DNA (which had no innocent explanation for his having directly deposited it), should tell you Rudy was the only person there at the time of the attack.


picture.php



Who left this bloody wall print?
Is it a left hand or a right?

Were hand size comparions made to this as was done with the diluted bloody bath mat imprint?

For some reason I've never seen pics of Rudy or Raff's hand in comparison to this photo,
but I have seen their footprints compared to each other the bath mat print.

More Smoke and Mirrors from ILE.
Focus on the fuzzy bath mat print,
not the much clearer bloody hand print, found near where the knife blade imprint was.

Weird how not a single part, a single line of a finger tip, or a finger,
or palm print is able to be found here on the wall. It bothers me, was this person wearing gloves?


Tell me and show the proof Rudy Guede left this bloody wall stain, and the seminal fluid stains,
well I'll believe that he acted alone when Meredith was raped and murdered..

I've had a few 3-somes, 2 guys+1 gal.
It would be a lot easier to control a gal in a sexual assault and not knock over that glass of water on her night stand if 2 dudes were involved. 1 went berserk and stabbed her. If that seminal fluid is not from Rudy, some other dude mighta had gloves on and took 'em off when he pulled out his tool and ejaculated. He seems to have probably left some of his hair inside the bedroom too.

The blonde, or chestnut hair certainly is not from Amanda or Raffaele,
as is not that seminal fluid, for heck, those hairs would never have been lost.

The results would have been ALL Over The Newspapers and TV Shows before court even started, and the semen test results would be known...
 
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ILE did a good job of Smoke and Mirrors.

Focus on how weird Kokomani is weird, his story unbelieveable.
Not that he was in the vicinity that night.
Not that he knew Rudy Guede.
Not that Barbie Nadeau writes it a coulpa times in her book that Hekuran was a drug informant for the local police.
Or that he showed up to court in a hoody, wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses. (Gotta keep those other investigations goin' right?)

Question for you:
Do you believe that Rudy broke into the Lawyers Office alone?
I don't. He most likely had a partner, I recall reading years ago on LMT's blog on the local Perugia Scene, it's possible that the break-in was planned, as they were looking for something. Someone disconnected part of the burglar alarm. What did this person do afterwards, hang out outside and look out? Or enter and help ransack the place?

I seem to recall reading that someone saw a car similar to Koko's in the yard of the flat the next morning, before the cops got there. Strange...

Also strange is the recent CCTV video that had all the people looking towards the cottage the night before.
And strange too is the whole Downstairs Scene, which folks agued for years that it did not have anything to do with the murder...

Well, a quick word on unidentified fingerprints. They're unidentified, so why do we need to assume they mean anything? Couldn't unidentified fingerprints in laura's room for example, just be Laura's? And so on? Wouldn't that eliminate your speculation on this point?

Unidentified doesn't mean unknown persons. For example, the additional male profiles in the bra clasp point to specific individual people who are DIFFERENT from Raf. We know they are different. There may not be a complete DNA profile, and we may not know specifically to whom they belong, but we do know they ARE MALE, AND THEY ARE NOT RAF.

Half a clue, isn't a clue, not if we're going to be straight about our analysis. Now, does this mean you are wrong? No, it certainly doesn't. But you are speculating based on an uncertainty, rather than an at least reasonable probability.

So I don't think we're seeing the case differently. I think I'm being a bit more of a cheap skate on letting loose evidence slide, before I include it as an element to be accounted for.

Koko I believe was in the area btw, I think he had his cell phone pinged, maybe someone else knows that data more specifically. Would be interesting to know who Koko might have called/i.e. phone record of it (IIRC - I'm pretty sure I remember this though).

Rudy's break-in to the law office. I did get the sense that it required someone with knowledge of security systems to disable the alarms, as per the lawyers testimony, and I had to question whether Rudy, not the greatest student, could manage that skill.

But the break-in MO is identical to the cottage. Rudy was the only person caught with the stolen goods. So maybe Rudy knows enough about electronics to disable alarms. He told girls he was a computer expert for the Armani, no? Gotta keep up the skills to impress. (I'm unsure if Rudy has that skill. But apparently it was necessary to the lawyers break-in. Can we ask Rudy?)

AND, Rudy was captured on the CCTV walking to and from, and to again the cottage - BY HIMSELF. So if he was with someone else, when did he met up with them?

Rudy's behavior and mental make-up are really odd too. He suffered from black-out fugue states, and could end up on all fours barking like a dog (barking mad, as it were). (According to Nina Burleigh's book).

Koko's story was bizarre. Rudy's stories were bizarre. I wouldn't rule anything out just because I can't imagine these idiots not doing it. But I don't see evidence of anyone but Rudy in the cottage, and that also means evidence that no one else was there - at least in that small blood soaked room where Meredith was killed.

The only thing I think we can use as our guide, is the evidence. Unidentified fingerprints aren't evidence, until they are identified. However, suppose there were a partial print that could exclude Laura in Laura's bedroom? That would tell us it wasn't Laura, even while not know ing who it is or might be. And that's more than zero. An unidentified print is a zero, until its not.

Just like luminol isn't blood, until its confirmed.

So a straight answer to your question: My sense is Rudy acted alone, always. There's no evidence he worked with partners on any of the 5 or 6 jobs I've seen him linked to. Doesn't mean I'm right of course, but there's nothing solid indicating a second accomplice on any of Rudy's adventures. And no, I don't think Rudy was on a secret mission, no one could rely on the guy.

Your research on Frank's blog was a huge help to me. And your choice of avatars shows an eclectic brilliance, if you don't mind my saying.

oh yes, the people looking in the direction on the CCTV video, I think they were hearing the murder of Meredith Kercher by Rudy Guede.

And the downstairs crime scene turned up human DNA profiles that have been suppressed, so yes, I believe Rudy went downstairs after he killed Meredith.
 
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[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9248[/qimg]


Who left this bloody wall print?
Is it a left hand or a right?
Were hand size comparions made to this as was done with the diluted bloody bath mat imprint?

For some reason I've never seen pics of Rudy or Raff's hand in comparison to this photo,
but I have seen their footprints compared to each other the bath mat print.

More Smoke and Mirrors from ILE.
Focus on the fuzzy bath mat print,
not the much clearer bloody hand print, found near where the knife blade imprint was.

Weird how not a single part, a single line of a finger tip, or a finger,
or palm print is able to be found here on the wall. It bothers me, was this person wearing gloves?


Tell me and show the proof Rudy Guede left this bloody wall stain, and the seminal fluid stains,
well I'll believe that he acted alone when Meredith was raped and murdered..

I've had a few 3-somes, 2 guys+1 gal.
It would be a lot easier to control a gal in a sexual assault and not knock over that glass of water on her night stand if 2 dudes were involved. 1 went berserk and stabbed her. If that seminal fluid is not from Rudy, some other dude mighta had gloves on and took 'em off when he pulled out his tool and ejaculated. He seems to have probably left some of his hair inside the bedroom too.

The blonde, or chestnut hair certainly is not from Amanda or Raffaele,
as is not that seminal fluid, for heck, those hairs would never have been lost.

The results would have been ALL Over The Newspapers and TV Shows before court even started, and the semen test results would be known...

I'm guessing right hand, since the strong two finger lines drift right, and awkward cross body motion for a lefty.

Smearing blood could (IIUC) smear fingerprints.

Was this stain tested for DNA? Dod it come up Rudy & Meredith?

Obviously we don't have all the proof, or access to even all that was tested.

But I think we need more than speculation to invent scenarios, and then demand proof our scenarios are false. imo
 
In a diverted debate, Peter Quennell says this

This interaction on the night seems to me way too inadequate to move the TOD forward to where AK and RS get off the hook. Chances are it was Meredith, not a perp in process of browsing while escaping in the dark.

This relates to the 10 13pm phone call.

The enemy within are unsettling the idiots.
 
In a diverted debate, Peter Quennell says this

This interaction on the night seems to me way too inadequate to move the TOD forward to where AK and RS get off the hook. Chances are it was Meredith, not a perp in process of browsing while escaping in the dark.

This relates to the 10 13pm phone call.

The enemy within are unsettling the idiots.

If Ms Kercher were simply browsing, then she was still alive one hour and 17 minutes after she had placed a failed call to England on her way back to the cottage. So why, in this scenario, would Ms Kercher not have attempted to make that call again? Indeed, why, by 10:13, wouldn't Ms Kercher have made that call AND acted in a manner consistent with Ms Purton's testimony - that Ms Kercher told her she was tired and wanted to go to bed? What on earth was she doing between arriving home and 10:13pm?

The two things that were most in the forefront of Ms Kercher's mind - and we have clear evidence of this - were:

a) Her mother - hence her call at 856.
b) Her own tiredness - hence her statement to Ms Purton

Yet she did nothing, upon her return to the cottage to address either issue.

Guede was not "escaping" at 1013; he had escaped.
 
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If Ms Kercher were simply browsing, then she was still alive one hour and 17 minutes after she had placed a failed call to England on her way back to the cottage. So why, in this scenario, would Ms Kercher not have attempted to make that call again? Indeed, why, by 10:13, wouldn't Ms Kercher have made that call AND acted in a manner consistent with Ms Purton's testimony - that Ms Kercher told her she was tired and wanted to go to bed? What on earth was she doing between arriving home and 10:13pm?

But Guede was not "escaping" at 1013; he had escaped.
Yes, what is interesting as I am trying to say is the Italians are resting on their laurels, but the three opposition sites are becoming fragmented and disillusioned with the persistent and easy attacks on the flaccid underbelly of their idiocy.

Quennell also catastrophically says

The PMF poster appears to me to be asking for some sort of weighting (of bits of evidence). But the list is the list. Its main compelling quality is its sheer amazing size.

Hilited my editorial addition.

As an army they are falling to pieces.
I am strangely confident that there will be no more jail time, but how this comes about is unknowable.
 
Another useful ECHR document:

The European Court of Human Rights:
Questions and Answers for Lawyers


http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Guide_ECHR_lawyers_ENG.pdf

33. What else may a judgment of the ECHR contain?
In cases of systemic shortcomings, typically of a legislative kind, the ECHR can mandate that
a State pass, modify or repeal legislation. In exceptional cases, the Court may set a deadline for that action. When legislating, States are bound by the Convention as interpreted by the ECHR, subject to a margin of appreciation. In exceptional cases, the ECHR can mandate that a State take specific action, such as the release of an applicant from detention or the enforcement of an applicant’s right to access to a child over which they have custody. The Court is not competent to quash any national law or judgment (see question 36).

{emphasis added}
 
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Do you use that case to argue that ours was unfair because Knox and Sollecito were not heard by Cassazione?

Yes, that is one argument.
The full argument would be that the CSC must do a full trial because the defendants argue their innocence and there is a conflict (conviction and acquittal) in the 1st level and 2nd level (Hellmann) courts. Or perhaps CSC must simply accept Hellmann's acquittal.

Then the question arises as what weight to place on the CSC quashing Hellmann's acquittal and the Nencini conviction (which to my naive mind appears directed by CSC). And Nencini IIUC only admitted one new piece of evidence, and it was exculpatory - certainly not inclupatory (AK's DNA on the knife blade).

I am returning to these posts because I believe they need more emphasis.

Regarding the first sentence of my earlier post (highlighted here), I am not arguing that Knox or Sollecito should appear before the CSC. Indeed, I would argue that Knox should remain within the jurisdiction of the US, for practical reasons. That they should appear before the CSC because of the conviction following acquittal would, however, be one argument that can be clearly derived from the ECtHR judgments. However, in the US, the US Constitution as law is supreme in the hierarchy of all laws and treaties, and Knox is and should remain in the US until her innocence is acknowledged by the Italian authorities.

What the CSC has failed to do is to allow the defense a fair hearing (bolded in the earlier post). This was true not only before the CSC appeal, but at each trial level. The defense was denied a fair hearing even before the Hellmann court, although that resulted in a partial acquittal. The denial by the various Italian courts to admit defense evidence, such as, for example, a DNA analysis of the putative semen stain and the Electronic Data Files from the police forensic lab's DNA analyses, is a root cause of this unfairness to the defense. It is this denial of providing the defense, and the public, with this evidence that promotes the impression of uncertainty in this case. And this promotion of uncertainty is an attack on justice itself, as we know it in democratic societies.

{emphasis added}
 
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I am returning to these posts because I believe they need more emphasis.

Regarding the first sentence of my earlier post (highlighted here), I am not arguing that Knox or Sollecito should appear before the CSC. Indeed, I would argue that Knox should remain within the jurisdiction of the US, for practical reasons. That they should appear before the CSC because of the conviction following acquittal would, however, be one argument that can be clearly derived from the ECtHR judgments. However, in the US, the US Constitution as law is supreme in the hierarchy of all laws and treaties, and Knox is and should remain in the US until her innocence is acknowledged by the Italian authorities.

What the CSC has failed to do is to allow the defense a fair hearing (bolded in the earlier post). This was true not only before the CSC appeal, but at each trial level. The defense was denied a fair hearing even before the Hellmann court, although that resulted in a partial acquittal. The denial by the various Italian courts to admit defense evidence, such as, for example, a DNA analysis of the putative semen stain and the Electronic Data Files from the police forensic lab's DNA analyses, is a root cause of this unfairness to the defense. It is this denial of providing the defense, and the public, with this evidence that promotes the impression of uncertainty in this case. And this promotion of uncertainty is an attack on justice itself, as we know it in democratic societies.

{emphasis added}

I am not able to follow the ECHR stuff Numbers is posting, mainly because my reaction to it is somewhat the same as when the experts get going on the DNA stuff.......

I simply do not have the horsepower, really, to delve through the detail - detail that folk like Numbers and Chris_Halkides seem able to.

However, I can read. I have read and reread Nencini's reasons for denial of the defence motions at the beginning of the Florence trial.

It is mind-numbingly stupid, most of the denials. And then he has the temerity to go ahead and resurrect items of "evidence" or "witness" in a manner beyond what even Judge Massei used in convicting the pair in 2009.

I mean, without a witness called in his own court to buttress it, and against BOTH what Judge Massei found in 2009, and what Prosecutor presented to him in the fall of 2013 - Nencini simply changes the motive for this crime. Changes it at a whim.

How many of those motions-denied at the beginning would have spoken to this? We'll never know, because, er, the motions for reexamination or re-discovery were all denied, save one.

So, while conceding that the intricacies of ECHR and DNA stuff are over the heads of all but a few, I have discovered it is impossible to turn to Judge Nencini for solace.

I wish people from the pro-guilt-lobby would stay around long enough to actually argue why Nencini got it right.
 
I am returning to these posts because I believe they need more emphasis.

Regarding the first sentence of my earlier post (highlighted here), I am not arguing that Knox or Sollecito should appear before the CSC. Indeed, I would argue that Knox should remain within the jurisdiction of the US, for practical reasons. That they should appear before the CSC because of the conviction following acquittal would, however, be one argument that can be clearly derived from the ECtHR judgments. However, in the US, the US Constitution as law is supreme in the hierarchy of all laws and treaties, and Knox is and should remain in the US until her innocence is acknowledged by the Italian authorities.

What the CSC has failed to do is to allow the defense a fair hearing (bolded in the earlier post). This was true not only before the CSC appeal, but at each trial level. The defense was denied a fair hearing even before the Hellmann court, although that resulted in a partial acquittal. The denial by the various Italian courts to admit defense evidence, such as, for example, a DNA analysis of the putative semen stain and the Electronic Data Files from the police forensic lab's DNA analyses, is a root cause of this unfairness to the defense. It is this denial of providing the defense, and the public, with this evidence that promotes the impression of uncertainty in this case. And this promotion of uncertainty is an attack on justice itself, as we know it in democratic societies.

{emphasis added}

I am not able to follow the ECHR stuff Numbers is posting, mainly because my reaction to it is somewhat the same as when the experts get going on the DNA stuff.......

I simply do not have the horsepower, really, to delve through the detail - detail that folk like Numbers and Chris_Halkides seem able to.

However, I can read. I have read and reread Nencini's reasons for denial of the defence motions at the beginning of the Florence trial.

It is mind-numbingly stupid, most of the denials. And then he has the temerity to go ahead and resurrect items of "evidence" or "witness" in a manner beyond what even Judge Massei used in convicting the pair in 2009.

I mean, without a witness called in his own court to buttress it, and against BOTH what Judge Massei found in 2009, and what Prosecutor presented to him in the fall of 2013 - Nencini simply changes the motive for this crime. Changes it at a whim.

How many of those motions-denied at the beginning would have spoken to this? We'll never know, because, er, the motions for reexamination or re-discovery were all denied, save one.

So, while conceding that the intricacies of ECHR and DNA stuff are over the heads of all but a few, I have discovered it is impossible to turn to Judge Nencini for solace.

I wish people from the pro-guilt-lobby would stay around long enough to actually argue why Nencini got it right.

I am also baffled by Italy's appeal system. Here, in E & W, we basically have 'review' and 'rehearing'. The latter is simply a re-trial of the same case in a higher court. Convictions of criminal charges in the magistrates court (the lowest criminal court) are appealable as of right to the crown court where the whole thing is 'reheard' as if the earlier trial had never taken place. There is a similar corresponding civil appeal from the lowest level (trial by District Judge) to the next one up (Circuit Judge) when, again, the whole thing is heard afresh.

An appeal by way of review will generally address itself to the question: did the lower court go wrong? It is an examination of the lower court's handling of the claim and rarely involves consideration of new evidence or hearing live testimony.

Italy's appeals, from Assize Court to the Court of Appeal, seem to be neither one thing nor the other. The appeal court judges seem to be able to pick and mix whatever they want without heeding defence points of appeal. One consequence seems to be that whole areas of enquiry end up getting ignored. The 'remand' to Nencini was not a re-run of Hellman either but a sort of directed hearing within parameters set by the ISC. You would think Nencini would have come right out and said as much when rejecting all those defence requests at the outset, but he didn't, which leaves me puzzled as to quite what is going on.
 
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I am also baffled by Italy's appeal system. Here, in E & W, we basically have 'review' and 'rehearing'. The latter is simply a re-trial of the same case in a higher court. Convictions of criminal charges in the magistrates court (the lowest criminal court) are appealable as of right to the crown court where the whole thing is 'reheard' as if the earlier trial had never taken place. There is a similar corresponding civil appeal from the lowest level (trial by District Judge) to the next one up (Circuit Judge) when, again, the whole thing is heard afresh.

An appeal by way of review will generally address itself to the question: did the lower court go wrong? It is an examination of the lower court's handling of the claim and rarely involves consideration of new evidence or hearing live testimony.

Italy's appeals, from Assize Court to the Court of Appeal, seem to be neither one thing nor the other. The appeal court judges seem to be able to pick and mix whatever they want without heeding defence points of appeal. One consequence seems to be that whole areas of enquiry end up getting ignored. The 'remand' to Nencini was not a re-run of Hellman either but a sort of directed hearing within parameters set by the ISC. You would think Nencini would have come right out and said as much when rejecting all those defence requests at the outset, but he didn't, which leaves me puzzled as to quite what is going on.

For the Italian system, the confusion may arise because the de facto trials deviate from de jure constitution and laws.

My (imperfect) understanding is that in the Italian judicial system, for a serious criminal case there are three trial levels:

1. First-level trial before two judges (one of whom is the senior, presiding judge) and six "lay judges". The lay judges are randomly-chosen citizens with at least a middle-school education who are not examined for bias nor otherwise vetted. The facts of the case are heard according to law and procedure.

1.1 By law and constitution, the trial is adversarial before an impartial judge who is independent ("third party position"), defense and prosecution are to have equal conditions, and the defense is entitled to cross-examine all witnesses and to bring forth all evidence in its favor; guilt cannot be established from a witness who legally refuses to be cross-examined [Italian Constitution, Article 111].

1.2 A defendant shall be considered not guilty until a final sentence has been passed [Italian Constitution, Article 27].

1.3 Reality may differ regarding the statements in (1.1) and (1.2) based on the whims of the judge and the influence of the prosecution.

1.4 There is no attention to precedent as the civil-law system is used.

1.5 Following the verdict, either the defense or prosecution or both may appeal. (Note that in common-law systems, only the defense may appeal, with certain unusual exceptions.)

2. The appeal is heard in a Second-level trial. The structure of two judges and six lay judges is maintained, but the lay judges in the second-level must be high-school graduates.

2.1 Although called an appeal, the trial may be a full trial of facts and review of the application of law and procedure. (Note that this differs from an appeal trial in the US, which consists of a review of the application of law and procedure conducted in a previous "fact" trial.) The judge apparently is free to decide to what degree new evidence may be heard or previously introduce evidence reviewed.

2.2 Again, all the defense rights of statements 1.1 and 1.2 apply.

2.3 Again, all the arbitrary abuses permitted by judge are allowed, as in statement 1.3.

2.4 Again, precedent is ignored in accordance with the civil-law system.

2.5 Following the verdict, either the defense or prosecution or both may appeal.

3.0 The appeal from the second-level trial is directed to the Corte Suprema di Cassazione (CSC), the Italian Court of Cassation, sometimes called the Italian Supreme Court (ISC). (Note that the CSC is not a Supreme Constitutional Court; that is a different institution in Italy.) The CSC consists of about 400 judges divided into Criminal and Civil Divisions. Each Division is divided further into a number of functional sections (for example, and approximately, such sections may include one for crimes against the state, another for financial crimes, and another for serious crimes against persons). An appeal trial is conducted by a panel of five judges from the relevant section. For certain complex cases, the appeal trial is held by a United Section panel of nine judges, who are selected from several relevant sections.

3.1 The CSC claims that its sole judicial responsibility is to review the application of law and procedure, and not to review facts.

3.2 In reality, the CSC may review facts in certain cases when its panel of judges actually do so. There is apparently no higher review of their action.

3.3 The CSC may accept as final or reject the second-level verdict. If it rejects it, and there is no previous second-level trial, it will order a new second-level trial.

3.4 If there is a previous rejected second-level trial, and the CSC rejects the new second-level trial, the CSC has the option to adopt the previously rejected second-level trial as final.

3.5 For any case, the CSC may reject each second-level trial verdict and order a new second-level trial indefinitely, until the statute of limitations runs out. For some crimes, such as murder, which have no statute of limitations, the CSC can thus indefinitely delay reaching a final verdict. The advantage of this may be to satisfy all political sides among the judiciary, and in principle to avoid the case being brought to the European Court of Human Rights. The ECtHR is in principle allowed to review only finalized cases.

3.5 The verdict is not final until the CSC finalizes a second-level trial verdict.
 
In a diverted debate, Peter Quennell says this

This interaction on the night seems to me way too inadequate to move the TOD forward to where AK and RS get off the hook. Chances are it was Meredith, not a perp in process of browsing while escaping in the dark.

This relates to the 10 13pm phone call.

The enemy within are unsettling the idiots.

I'd love to say that those phone calls (9:58, 10:00 and 10:13) mean something and they might. Just that they aren't real evidence. All they allow us to do is speculate.

The 10:13 call probably wasn't made from the cottage but not definitively. The cottage has line of sight to the antenna and it is certainly within range. The real issue is the connectivity to the Piazza Lupatelli tower which is ten time closer. Ordinarily, this is a real slam dunk. At the cottage pretty much all the calls would connect to the closer Piazza Lupatelli tower and that would mean that call almost certainly wouldn't connect to the more distant tower.

The real issue is how the cottage is constructed. How thick is the stone and how does that effect the radio signal? There is no window opening facing the close Piazza Lupatelli tower antenna and there is a window opening next to Meredith's desk facing the more distant tower. If Meredith was sitting at her desk it is possible that the call might connect to that tower. But there is no way to know this without testing from inside Meredith's bedroom.

So, as much as I think PQ is full of it usually, he could be right if that was the only evidence.
 
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