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What evidence are you looking at?

Did you try charging then rotate toward 90 degrees as you were moving?

Besides, it has been demonstrated more than once, that a parallel, or even close to it torso/face, was not necessary for the impact points to have happened the way they did.

Something more like 45 degrees is completely plausible..

Had he been charging his head would have been moving about and not have been in almost the exact same position.

I've been a football fan since about the age of 3. I've never seen anyone run 35 yards with their head parallel to the ground. Try it some time. 5' yeah, I can believe that. 10' not likely >20' there is a good reason to doubt. Not impossible but doesn't make much sense.

Addressed above...

You even thanked Mike! for his illustration, without calling it's accuracy into question..
 
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Did you note how many times they shot him? They shot him once. They did not fire a fusillade because they didn't want to kill him just resolve the situation. Please note that Brown was shot twice in the head. His wounds were consistent with being shot while falling. Do you still fail to see the difference?
They shot him with a rifle, which brought him down instantly. Handguns don't have that kind of stopping power. Note the video posted earlier of the traffic stop where a man in camo starts shooting at the officer, who returns fire. Despite receiving a fatal wound the man doesn't even flinch, and runs back to his car and speeds away only to die a mile or so down the road.

You're looking at about 1300 ft-lbs of muzzle energy in a rifle, compared to about 350 ft-lbs from a typical police handgun. Also the much higher velocity of a rifle (over 3,000 fps vs, about 1,000 fps) creates hydrostatic shock which isn't present in getting shot with a handgun.

So yeah, you'd expect as much from a shot from a rifle.
 
As far as the claim "a shot to the arm would have incapacitated him" here's a story in which a Skokie, IL cop was in a shootout and hit the perp 17 times with a .45 before he finally went down. 5 of those shots were fatal wounds, it's just that only the last one killed him instantly: http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2012/02/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

And this link is certainly not for the squeamish, it includes many graphic autopsy photos so you've been warned! It is of an 18 year old kid who was in a shootout with police, and who was shot no less than 17 times by .223 rifle rounds and .40 S&W rounds (the same as Wilson used on Brown) but continued fighting on pure adrenaline. Even after he went down with fatal wounds he fought the officers putting handcuffs on him.

I really, really mean do not click this link if you do not want to see graphic pictures of gunshot wounds! http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf
 
the claim:

"Evidence makes it more likely than not that the incident transpired the way Wilson says."

Sorry to jump in, but I'd like to split some hairs.

I'll accept "the physical evidence is not inconsistent with Wilson's account", but I'd dispute "the physical evidence supports Wilson's account".

The core of the argument is what happened when Brown turned around and moved back towards Wilson. IIRC Wilson's account has phrases like "hulked-up" and "demon face" which support his claim that he was in fear for his life and shot in self-defence. The physical evidence is not able to support these key claims.

I'd be very surprised if the physical evidence was inconsistent with Wilson's account as he was there and knows what happened - he'd have to be a very stupid cop to say anything that could be falsified by physical evidence. All he has to do is be selective and emphasise those elements that support his account.
 
Did you note how many times they shot him? They shot him once. They did not fire a fusillade because they didn't want to kill him just resolve the situation. Please note that Brown was shot twice in the head. His wounds were consistent with being shot while falling. Do you still fail to see the difference?

This is another good example of police trying their best to save a life. They could have just killed him. The sharpshooter and his supervisor deserve great credit for their professionalism in this creative feat of compassion.

 
being shot in the arm would not be a debilitating injury.
Evidence for that statement?

Vol III; p. 159:

MS. WHIRLEY: Shirley Whirley. Would the combination, you said you can't talk about the sequence of the shots which occurred first, but the combination of the shots that we've seen before the fatal shot, it still would not render this person disabled?

A: Correct.​
 
This is another good example of police trying their best to save a life. They could have just killed him. The sharpshooter and his supervisor deserve great credit for their professionalism in this creative feat of compassion.

Nice of him to sit still like that.
 
Vol III; p. 159:

MS. WHIRLEY: Shirley Whirley. Would the combination, you said you can't talk about the sequence of the shots which occurred first, but the combination of the shots that we've seen before the fatal shot, it still would not render this person disabled?

A: Correct.​

The ADA's name is not really Shirley Whirley, is it?

ETA: No. It's Sheila.
 
*snip*

The core of the argument is what happened when Brown turned around and moved back towards Wilson. IIRC Wilson's account has phrases like "hulked-up" and "demon face" which support his claim that he was in fear for his life and shot in self-defence. The physical evidence is not able to support these key claims.

The physical evidence doesn't NEED to support those claims as they aren't "key" like you insinuate. Those are modifiers to the situation. Whether he bulked up, or shrunk down, the physical evidence supports the KEY claim that he came back at Wilson. He certainly wasn't coming back at him to give him a hug. He covered a fair amount of distance in minimal time. So while you may think that him saying he hulked up, or he had a demon face, is key. It's just not.

I'd be very surprised if the physical evidence was inconsistent with Wilson's account as he was there and knows what happened

So was Dorian Johnson and his claims are 80% ********. Why wouldn't he get simple things right?

he'd have to be a very stupid cop to say anything that could be falsified by physical evidence. All he has to do is be selective and emphasise those elements that support his account.

The other reason could be that he is telling the truth. There is this meme going around that Wilson didn't give an account or a statement until after the physical evidence was submitted and researched. Which, again, is simply not true. Wilson's account matches the physical evidence because, I believe, he is telling the truth. It's just that simple. Maybe there's a bit of hyperbole in there, and he added a bit of drama to help his case. After all, we've said here a million times that memory can be a tricky thing, and sometimes what you want to believe becomes fact. Wilson is a human, just because he's a cop doesn't mean he's immune to making mistake; however, the important part of his version of events matches the physical evidence. I would say that makes it a reasonable account of the encounter.
 
For the love of FSM take the blinders off.

Yeah,this guy is providing us some wonderful examples of the "My Mind's Made Up, Don't Confuse Me With Facts" and "When Facts conflict with ideology, facts much be disposed of" mentality.
In his latest, he blithly ignores that Brown was shot NOT for stealing a few cigars, but for attacking a police officer.
 
So was Dorian Johnson and his claims are 80% ********. Why wouldn't he get simple things right?

To be fair, police know a lot more about how and what physical evidence would be present than a layperson.

I say this only to demonstrate that a cop should be a better liar (more informed) than a layperson when both are present at the scene of a crime.
 
Is it just me, or have Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and Trayvon Martin been transformed into virtually the same person in the minds of many if not most of the people protesting these days? The differences in these cases are overlooked to favor their preferred narrative. In the Eric Garner video, it might as well be Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown dying after getting put in a choke-hold by a cop; at a sub-conscious level, I think something like this is happening. The Eric Garner video is used to buttress the claims made by activists when it comes to the other video-less incidents. Is there a name for this type of faulty reasoning?

This is disturbing, and frustrating to me because I am angry with the GJ decision in the Eric Garner case and believe the cop should have been charged with something. I don't believe his actions were justified by Garner's petty offenses or behavior, and there are many people on the right who believe this. On the other hand, I believe Darren Wilson was justified in defending himself from Michael Brown, based on the evidence.

It is unfortunate how the Eric Garner protests have become so intertwined with Michael Brown/Trayvon Martin protests. It's all one big protest event. It's like you can't agitate for one without agitating for all. Ironically, in death, their blackness seems to have robbed them of their individuality, they've been merged into one person by the supposed anti-racists of the left.
 
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To be fair, police know a lot more about how and what physical evidence would be present than a layperson.

I say this only to demonstrate that a cop should be a better liar (more informed) than a layperson when both are present at the scene of a crime.

I believe Wilson was removed from the scene shortly after the incident happened, due to medical attention and the danger of having him in the area. Considering how it is pointed out in this thread ad nauseam that the chief made mistakes in his statements on the physical evidence, and Wilson gave his statement shortly after the hospital release, then I can't imagine he was able to twist it to fit the theory. He had to have been going off of what he remembered.

You may be right. I just think that Dorian got to, literally, watch the whole thing, while Wilson was dealing with everything as it came at him. I would think that Dorian would have just as clear of a recollection of the events as Wilson.
 
Is the evidence consistent with someone who is struggling and trying to remain on his feet? My understanding that Brown was struck twice in the head indicative that he was going down.

Who runs 35' with their head parallel to the ground?

I'm wondering about this 35 feet from the blood splatters to Brown. Is that measured from the splatter to Brown's head, feet or somewhere in between?
 
What evidence are you looking at?

Did you try charging then rotate toward 90 degrees as you were moving?

Besides, it has been demonstrated more than once, that a parallel, or even close to it torso/face, was not necessary for the impact points to have happened the way they did.

Something more like 45 degrees is completely plausible..

Addressed above...

You even thanked Mike! for his illustration, without calling it's accuracy into question..
The illustration made clear that I was wrong about the bullet exiting the chin. I realize that in discussions such as this most people aren't reading for comprehension but instead looking for some kind of "gotcha". I'll concede that my words were poorly chosen so the fault is somewhat mine.

To be struck in the head the way brown was, a man taller than Wilson, he would have had to be bent over. I don't know what degree his body was or his head was but it most certainly wasn't in a natural position for charging.
 
I'm wondering about this 35 feet from the blood splatters to Brown. Is that measured from the splatter to Brown's head, feet or somewhere in between?

# | DESCRIPTION | WEST (ft-in) | SOUTH (ft-in)
19|Blood Stain in Roadway|31-0|11-9
20|Blood Stain in Roadway|26-7|11-6
--|Brown Left Foot|48-2|15-6
--|Brown Right Foot|48-2|13-6
--|Brown Left Hand|51-4|15-3
--|Brown Right Hand|52-11|12-3
--|Brown Head|53-6|15-9

The measurements were taken from a baseline northeast of the crime scene demarked by the intersection of Canfield and Copper Creek.

ETA: Here's the diagram for comparison:

[imgw=600]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=853&pictureid=9283[/imgw]

The red stars are the blood stains. I left them out of the legend.
 
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The illustration made clear that I was wrong about the bullet exiting the chin. I realize that in discussions such as this most people aren't reading for comprehension but instead looking for some kind of "gotcha". I'll concede that my words were poorly chosen so the fault is somewhat mine.

To be struck in the head the way brown was, a man taller than Wilson, he would have had to be bent over. I don't know what degree his body was or his head was but it most certainly wasn't in a natural position for charging.

And you're basing that on what, exactly?

ETA: Better yet, what exactly are you implying happened then? If the bullet path that you are looking at doesn't jive with your theory, then what do you think happened? I get that you keep repeating "I don't know, I don't know, nobody knows?" If you are willing to say that a theory told to you is wrong, then what are you implying?
 
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Is it just me, or have Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and Trayvon Martin been transformed into virtually the same person in the minds of many if not most of the people protesting these days? The differences in these cases are overlooked to favor their preferred narrative. In the Eric Garner video, it might as well be Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown dying after getting put in a choke-hold by a cop; at a sub-conscious level, I think something like this is happening. The Eric Garner video is used to buttress the claims made by activists when it comes to the other video-less incidents. Is there a name for this type of faulty reasoning?

This is disturbing, and frustrating to me because I am angry with the GJ decision in the Eric Garner case and believe the cop should have been charged with something. I don't believe his actions were justified by Garner's petty offenses or behavior, and there are many people on the right who believe this. On the other hand, I believe Darren Wilson was justified in defending himself from Michael Brown, based on the evidence.

It is unfortunate how the Eric Garner protests have become so intertwined with Michael Brown/Trayvon Martin protests. It's all one big protest event. It's like you can't agitate for one without agitating for all. Ironically, in death, their blackness seems to have robbed them of their individuality, they've been merged into one person by the supposed anti-racists of the left.

Okay, so let's separate them.

Mike Brown: I've said before, I don't believe Wilson's specific story where Brown stops and "bulked up" in the middle of charging at him - that's the sort of thing you'd see in a cartoon. I can absolutely believe that Brown decided he was dead anyway, turned and ran back at Wilson, and was shot in the head as he fell, either because he tripped, or because he had been hit. And as I said before, had the police collectively just backed off instead of attacking the neighborhood as soon as they came out to talk amongst themselves, this would not have been a major national event. But they did, so here we are.

Trayvon Martin: Let's make this one clear - George Zimmerman's version of events is absolutely impossible, and completely ridiculous. For the police chief to walk out talking about how sure he was that Martin regretted what he did...he fully deserved to lose his job for that one, and I'm glad he did. The almost certain truth is, Zimmerman started a fight with what he incorrectly thought was a criminal, and shot Martin when he lost the fight.

Eric Garner: Well, it's what we saw on tape. The guy apparently broke up a fight, had cops run up to harrass him, and then got choked out and had his head basically stepped on while he complained "I can't breathe". Then the offending cop waved to the camera.

Yes, these are all part of a larger pattern, which is a violent response to normal behavior on the part of black people. I can understand leaving Mike Brown out, since he may have been violent towards Wilson - but that does not justify how the police treated the rest of that community. You have missed the point - these people are *all* individuals, but it's the absurd response that shows that the people interacting with them, ignored their individuality. The outcry over all of this, is because they were treated as some menacing Borg, rather than as actual people.
 
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