Olowkow
Philosopher
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Peter's idea of a closed mind/heart is intriguing, given his list of personal heroes.
From his Facebook page:
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Pup
Philosopher
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I don't know about the FLDS, only the main LDS church, so take this with that grain of salt, but the first thing that occurs to me is the church's caution about sign seekers, or those who need evidence on which to base their faith. For example, Doctrine & Covenants 63:7-10:
7 And he that seeketh signs shall see signs, but not unto salvation.
8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;
9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
What I'm seeing with this attempt at justifying steel is an insistence on "seeking signs" "by the will of men," declaring that one has found evidence that an average person would not consider evidence. Yet somehow feeling a need to present that evidence because apparently faith alone is not strong enough, and archaelogical or etymological evidence must be presented to bolster it.
I guess that's one way to play the religion game, but it's not one that I could ever do, nor could the pet Mormon that I keep in the house here.
We were talking about it on our walk this morning, and she agreed with my point above, that the whole goal should be how the religion and scriptures make you feel, rather than specific details. Heck, one could go through the Bible and demolish any of the gospels as wrong because it doesn't agree with the others.
But if you feel better about yourself and your life and enjoy associating with others who believe the same, arguing about steel is as silly as arguing about whether the explosions in outer space were correct in Star Wars. One can miss the larger sweep of the movie, the emotions and the enjoyment, by wasting too much time on such things, and with a religion of course it's much more, with the whole aspect of trying to better oneself and do good, and sharing time with others trying to help you do the same.
So in other words, my pet Mormon was not impressed by the entire approach of seeking signs (evidence) for steel in what's meant to be a greater story about Jesus's influence among men and good vs. evil. And honestly, if I were religious, I wouldn't be either.
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
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tsig
a carbon based life-form
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I don't know about the FLDS, only the main LDS church, so take this with that grain of salt, but the first thing that occurs to me is the church's caution about sign seekers, or those who need evidence on which to base their faith. For example, Doctrine & Covenants 63:7-10:
7 And he that seeketh signs shall see signs, but not unto salvation.
8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;
9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
What I'm seeing with this attempt at justifying steel is an insistence on "seeking signs" "by the will of men," declaring that one has found evidence that an average person would not consider evidence. Yet somehow feeling a need to present that evidence because apparently faith alone is not strong enough, and archaelogical or etymological evidence must be presented to bolster it.
I guess that's one way to play the religion game, but it's not one that I could ever do, nor could the pet Mormon that I keep in the house here.
We were talking about it on our walk this morning, and she agreed with my point above, that the whole goal should be how the religion and scriptures make you feel, rather than specific details. Heck, one could go through the Bible and demolish any of the gospels as wrong because it doesn't agree with the others.
But if you feel better about yourself and your life and enjoy associating with others who believe the same, arguing about steel is as silly as arguing about whether the explosions in outer space were correct in Star Wars. One can miss the larger sweep of the movie, the emotions and the enjoyment, by wasting too much time on such things, and with a religion of course it's much more, with the whole aspect of trying to better oneself and do good, and sharing time with others trying to help you do the same.
So in other words, my pet Mormon was not impressed by the entire approach of seeking signs (evidence) for steel in what's meant to be a greater story about Jesus's influence among men and good vs. evil. And honestly, if I were religious, I wouldn't be either.
We toss aside facts and reason and just exist in a soft, feel-good fog?
Jesus's influence among men for good vs. evil in the BoM resulted in wars of extermination.
Pup
Philosopher
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She (my wife actually) said she sees it more as metaphor, allegory, stories, etc., rather than exact literal truth.
tsig said:
I don't know about you, but that's what I do when I read poetry or great literature or look at great paintings, or even just walk up the hill and enjoy a beautiful sunrise or sunset with my wife, as we do each morning and evening. Atheists are sometimes stereotyped by others as these emotionless, sour, ultra-skeptical people, but I don't see why religious people should get to experience all the soft feel-good beauty and wonder.
If someone says: Is this literally true? I'll chase down the answer like a dog on a bone. Edited to add: And my wife is the same way, when it comes to historical and genealogical information, fields we're both interested in, history more for me, genealogy more for her.
If someone says: Have you read High Flight by John Magee? I'm not going to argue that only a person suffering from synesthesia would consider laughter to be silver, and wind cannot actually shout, and that a person cannot safely be "in space" and put his hand out of an aircraft, let alone touch the face of a non-existent god, so the poem is clearly worthless for anyone who cares about facts and reason. I'm absolutely going to enjoy the magic of that feel-good fog, as the words wash over me.
tsig said:
There's a logical fallacy there, and I ought to know the name of it but I can't think of it. The implication seems to be that because Jesus's words in the BoM and the stories of good vs. evil caused wars of extermination in the past, they will always cause wars of extermination regardless who reads it or how they interpret it, and thus it all should be avoided.
The same could be said for Catholicism and Protestantism, yet there are Quakers who are as peaceful as one could want, other Protestants who seem perfectly nice people (and others who aren't), and one of my closer friends is Catholic. Yet the inquisition, the Mormon-exterminating habits of the Protestants, and all the evils of religion just don't occur to me when I'm interacting with them one-on-one because it doesn't appear in their behavior. There are others who use religion for evil, and I do avoid them, but I suspect their religion would barely be necessary to explain their behavior.
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steve s
Philosopher
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John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
Maybe I'm blind, but what has happened to SkyRider44, the only remaining pro-LDS interlocutor on this thread?
JaysonR
Graduate Poster
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That is the incorrect context.
The Mediterranean, Asian, and European Bronze Age metallurgy is not applicable to the Americas.
I was not stating that humanity was in lack; only the context of this discussion - the Americas.
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
I was just noticing that we seem to have lost our Mormons.
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Pup
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I was wondering that. In the US, one could blame it on turkey day and the busy weekend, but do they have any equivalent in Australlia?
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
Janadele was banned for sock puppetry. There was some dancing on the grave in FM.
Pup
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My LDS wife posted for a while as Cat Tale, back in the Janadelle days, but she got bored with the continually recycling arguments. If one reads scripture as metaphoric or literature (people like Twilight, so who am I to criticize tastes?), there are no archaelogical or other logical answers to steel and horses no matter how many times people ask, but such questions just aren't a pressing priority.
Personally, I find it more entertaining to debate with people like Skyrider44 or Haleyscomet's FLDS member, who take on board the scientific method more or less, are scriptural literalists, and valiantly tilt at windmills. But it's gotta be hard on them because scriptural literalists always have such a tough row to hoe. Steel in the early Americas ain't nothing compared to explaining the worldwide flood literally.
Personally, I find it more entertaining to debate with people like Skyrider44 or Haleyscomet's FLDS member, who take on board the scientific method more or less, are scriptural literalists, and valiantly tilt at windmills. But it's gotta be hard on them because scriptural literalists always have such a tough row to hoe. Steel in the early Americas ain't nothing compared to explaining the worldwide flood literally.
halleyscomet
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While a friend of Janadele, Skyrider44 claims to be in the USA. I like to think he left in a huff when he realized I was doing a better job defending his alleged faith than he was. This is not his first sabbatical from the forum. When things get too hot he drifts away for a bit and returns when he sees something he can snipe at without offering much meat for replies.
I find it interesting she used the name "Sariah" as her sock puppet. Most of her humiliation on the thread had to do with discussion of some of the historical absurdities from Nephi 1. Sariah is Nephi's MOTHER in the Book of Mormon.
Personally, I think she was trying to get banned to feed her martyr complex. If she wasn't TRYING to get banned then the name she chose for her sock puppet account was a mind bogglingly stupid choice.
As an aside, Janadele can be found on soundcloud reading "Jesus The Christ." If it's really her, she has a pleasant voice.
We're lucky she got caught after only one sock puppet account.
http://heymarthaforums.dailynuisanceproductions.com/index.php?topic=2414.0
Banned Posters said:
She's apparently still READING at lds.net, just not posting:
http://lds.net/forums/user/45409-janadele/?tab=topics
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skyrider44
Muse
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I'm enjoying the break, watching hordes of you pat each other on the back in choreographed lockstep.
Welcome back! You know, we couldn't come up with any evidence that there were domesticated horses, steel, or metal coinage in the Americas before Columbus. Did you find any evidence for these things while you were gone?
tsig
a carbon based life-form
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If the mistakes in the book of Mormon are the mistakes of men and not god how can you know that the whole book isn't a work of men?
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
That's rather an odd attitude to take given your failure to present a compelling argument.
Pup
Philosopher
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Not to mention the habit of LDS believers doing the exact same thing face to face and on their forums.