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Does anybody have any thoughts about this article?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV

Video: Police lied. Mike Brown was killed 148 feet away from Darren Wilson's SUV

I agree that the police did a poor job of relating the facts to the public and the 35' is a rather embarrassing example of that. I don't think that served the police well at all and I don't see the justification for claiming Belmar was lying about that, I think it was probably a mistake made by an official that was carried forward because it was one of the few 'facts' police had released about the case.
 
Cause they cursed at him, that's why. The guy is human, he was p'd off...
Back up was called for and arrived seconds after the shooting. Brown and Johnson would have disappeared from view by the time they arrived. Every single bit of blame is on Brown. The officer did what he was trained to do. It is too bad that Brown flipped out and attacked Wilson.
 
Cause they cursed at him, that's why. The guy is human, he was p'd off...

Possibly, but if you read through his post shooting interview you see he did call for back-up twice, once before he confronted them and then again after the struggle in the vehicle after shots had been fired. However the channel on his radio had been switched during the struggle so the second call was not received.

As for why he confronted them when he did, I think he could have done a better job of it, (attempting to dismount in range of the suspects was unwise) but knowing back-up is coming and having the suspects right there in sight it would figure he'd take the opportunity to capture them before they got to their "destination" where they could hide. After being assaulted he's now dealing with a dangerous suspect and, knowing back-up is on the way, has every duty to at least try to keep the guy in sight so he can help direct the manhunt and track the guy down.
 
It's well known that Eye witness testimony is the worse form of evidence there is. People corrupt their own memories via biases, talking with other people and watching TV. The biggest trouble with Witness 14's statement is that from turning and falling, he has Brown taking "Two or three steps" before moving "really slowly" towards Brown during the second volley of 4 shots. The physical, evidence says that Brown turned and moved 49 feet back towards Wilson. This just doesn't jive with what 14's Statement says.

14 also has Brown standing during the first volley of 6 shots and Brown being hit by 3 or 4 of them, but again, none of the bullets three bullets that hit Brown in the torso and head hit him when he was in an upright position, so this is impossible.

Next he changes his story to whether Brown was standing looking at Wilson (First Interview, and start of second) to his being bent over (later in second)when the second round of shots occur. The trouble here is that Brown can't have bent over from being shot 3-4 times as #14 claims, because none of the bullets hit him in the torso while he was upright. That is a major hole in #14's tale.

He also has Brown falling directly down, with his hands forwards, but the body clearly has the hands to his sides, not in front of him as would be the case if his hands were forward of his head, the interviewer in the second interview makes this point. 14's statements just do not match the physical evidence.

Also compare it with Witness 10 and the video that was posted earlier of Brown's body shortly after the shooting. A man can be heard describing what happened, and he states that "(Brown) run at the police" along with the contemporary diary entry of #40.

Witnesses that claim he was shot when running away have several problems. First, there are no shells between the car and the final position. Also all of the bullets in Wilson's gun have been accounted for. 2 at the car, 10 at the final position (6 + 4) and one was still in the gun. Add to that none of the shots were from back to the front. This means simply anyone claiming that Brown was shot running away is wrong.

Similarly we can know that when Brown was shot in the upper arm, he didn't have his hands up. We know this because the bullet wound was a through and through, from the front of the upper arm and out the back. If you put up your hands, your upper arm rotates. Had be been shot in the arm with his hands up, the wound would have been from the back of the arm to the front. We also know that the arm wasn't in front of him when it was hit because the wound then would have been in the lower arm and out the top.

We can also eliminate the whole "He was kneeling." For one thing, he moved 49 feet in 7 seconds, which is hard to do while kneeling, and secondly, while it is feasible that Wilson walked up and shot directly down into Brown as she knelt there, the evidence doesn't agree. The only close wound in the one to his hand, the rest are at distance, so for Wilson to have fired down at a distance, was for him to be standing 10 feet in the air above Brown, I think you'd agree this is unlikely.

This is the thing, we can't just read a witness statement and think that they could credible, we have to compare their claims with the physical evidence and see it matches. The majority of witness statements simply don't match, and when questioned on the stand we find out why. Many of them simply didn't actually see what they claimed too, they added to their story with what they believed happened, or what they heard others claim happened.

It's always easy to pick apart a single witnesses statement, it's more important to look for consistencies between witnesses and the aspects of the testimony that are less likely affected by memory/perception etc. It's funny you bring up witness 10, who IMO outside of one or two of the obviously biased witnesses that favored Brown, was totally incredible. Just looking at the language it was obviously rehearsed or intentionally geared towards Wilson's version (using the word "charge" for example--why the heck does everyone use 'charge'--whatever happened to simple running??)

One of the strongest consistencies IMO was that most witnesses said he was shot at while fleeing. This makes perfect sense, and it matches the evidence.
Its the only thing that logically explains the 3 second gap!!
You have to account for Wison chasing Brown; if he eventually backpedaled he would be ahead of the 'final position' at some point in the chase. I don't think (?) anyone has claimed he shot at Brown while he was still at the car. Im not sure whether any of the shots hit Brown so the forensics isn't critical although Ive read plenty of analysis that claim some of the wounds would be possible from a subject who is fleeing. I have no idea where you are getting 49 feet from. Using the lamppost, as well as the blood trails etc most of the analysis come to 21-25 feet as the distance Brown moved forward. IMO the first 6 shots were before he turned, which leaves 5 seconds for the final 4. A brisk 'walk' perhaps but certainly not a charge! IMO it's perfectly consistent with an injured person in shock who is trying to motion to the cop to stop shooting at him. The 'hands up' in that scenario could either be a sign of surrender, or just a "no, more!" (consistent with the witnesses who heard "OK")
 
It's always easy to pick apart a single witnesses statement, it's more important to look for consistencies between witnesses and the aspects of the testimony that are less likely affected by memory/perception etc.

It doesn't matter if they are consistent with each other if they aren't consistent with the physical evidence. Surely you are aware of the idea that people might talk to each other prior to statements being taken? If what they say doesn't match the physical evidence, it doesn't matter what they claim.

It's funny you bring up witness 10, who IMO outside of one or two of the obviously biased witnesses that favored Brown, was totally incredible. Just looking at the language it was obviously rehearsed or intentionally geared towards Wilson's version (using the word "charge" for example--why the heck does everyone use 'charge'--whatever happened to simple running??)

So you just claim conspiracy and ignore any witnesses you don't like? Again I seriously question your credentials as a ex-defence lawyer. It's rather funny that the witness matches not only the physical evidence, but also the Journal entry, and the guy on the video posted earlier which was right after the shooting, who says that "the guy ran at the police."

One of the strongest consistencies IMO was that most witnesses said he was shot at while fleeing. This makes perfect sense, and it matches the evidence.

Except that it doesn't fit the physical evidence, there are no shell casings between the SUV and the final place that the shooting occurred. Even your favourite #14 states that Wilson fire two rounds of shots at Brown while brown was facing and coming towards him.

Its the only thing that logically explains the 3 second gap!!

Bulldust. Wilson himself states that he paused because he believed that he'd hit Brown with the first volley so he ordered him to stop. Other witnesses agree that Wilson order Brown to stop in that pause (which is actually 2seconds by the audio) including #14.

You have to account for Wison chasing Brown;

No one is debating that Wilson chased Brown, they ended up around 150' from the SUV

if he eventually backpedaled he would be ahead of the 'final position' at some point in the chase.

He claims to have walked backwards as Brown came at him, the bullet casings' positions support this.

I don't think (?) anyone has claimed he shot at Brown while he was still at the car.

He fired two shots in the car, this is confirmed by Brown's lower arm injury, the blood and skin found in the vehicle, and the shell casings.

Im not sure whether any of the shots hit Brown so the forensics isn't critical although Ive read plenty of analysis that claim some of the wounds would be possible from a subject who is fleeing.

A number of witnesses stated that Brown took a hit in the first volley, including Wilson and your #14. Logic would suggest that it was the hit to the arm that was a through and through. Only one wound might have been inflicted on a fleeing person, and that is because it was a graze to the arm without a clear entrance or exit, thuds it could have been fired from behind, or in front, it's impossible to tell. The shot to the lower arm has an entrance in the back of the arm, but also has a close contact burn meaning it occurred in the car. All other hits had to be from the front.

I have no idea where you are getting 49 feet from. Using the lamppost, as well as the blood trails etc most of the analysis come to 21-25 feet as the distance Brown moved forward. IMO the first 6 shots were before he turned, which leaves 5 seconds for the final 4

From the area sketch. It's possible it's not to scale, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. The final four shots took 2 seconds. It was 6 shots in 3 seconds, a 2 second gap, then 4 shots in 2 seconds. 7 seconds in total. You can time it on the Audio

A brisk 'walk' perhaps but certainly not a charge! IMO it's perfectly consistent with an injured person in shock who is trying to motion to the cop to stop shooting at him. The 'hands up' in that scenario could either be a sign of surrender, or just a "no, more!" (consistent with the witnesses who heard "OK")

Except that you're basing your judgements on what you heard, and not the evidence.
 
If this guy can pass the bar, anyone can:

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/jQupVjO.jpg[/qimg]



I can tell you're trying to be very even handed but although that may seem imminently reasonable and impartial, I would encourage you to consider something:

Brown and Johnson were criminals, even if Brown hadn't yet been convicted for the felony he had just committed minutes before his encounter with Wilson. He was a young man full of a lot of physical aggression that day, and was apparently prepared to engage in violence for what most people would consider to be "no good reason."

If you're a tiny Bangladeshi man of advanced years without a weapon who is trying to prevent him from leaving the store, you may get off with a grab by the scruff and being unceremoniously moved out of the way, and threatened with a greater level of physical violence when you don't immediately take the hint afterward.

If, on the other hand... you are a police officer with backup a radio call away, a firearm and other offensive measures, a pair of handcuffs, and the full weight of the law behind you who is white (Brown had expressed dislike for white men in his rap lyrics) who is on the verge of apprehending Brown for a serious felony... well, you may merit a higher level of physical violence up to and including taking your life to avoid prison.

Brown may have felt the only way he could take Wilson out was to hit him with an unexpected burst of intense violence, catch him off guard, deliberately act more recklessly and rapidly than the officer was expecting (as Wilson admits, he was taken off guard by it big time, and he knew these were robbery suspects.) Think of it like a criminal's "Hail Mary pass" - Brown took a shot at neutralizing the cop before the cop could fully verify that he was the robber, and before Wilson was prepared. It didn't work out for him, but it seems that even after taking a couple of bullets he still felt it was his best play.

So what I'm getting at here is the fact that these two sides are not on equal footing and you shouldn't grant them equal credibility or their testimony equal weight. You've got criminals with every reason to lie and be violent on one hand, and on the other hand you have a decorated officer with a clean record who has now been exonerated of any wrong doing by a body which looked closely at all the physical and witness evidence.

And while I will certainly grant that Wilson has a vested interest in coming across this way, he struck me as genuinely unassuming and uh, let's say... much more optimistic about helping that community than I would be.

His Wrestling reference and my own strong knowledge of that area of the country (I'm from it) and the kind of guy Wilson is (knew many like him) lead me to believe he isn't someone with much, if any, malice in him. He may not be the brightest guy, but he strikes me as one of those people who just has way too much faith in humanity and that may be why his guard was down. I don't have a hard time at all believing that he didn't curse at them, but they cursed at him.

I can only hope he has come closer to the appropriate level of pessimism toward humanity and that community in particular after his ordeal.

ETA: In other words, it's not like we're looking at a situation where Wilson shot and killed the head of the PTA or a volunteer with Doctors Without Borders or something. It's entirely okay to default to believing a cop over violent criminals.

Interesting analysis, ST, thanks for the respectful response!
I think you and I are actually pretty close in our analysis--closer than you might think. I think it's pretty likely that Brown's fear of getting busted for the robbery played a role--although with his background he really wasn't looking at a lengthy jail sentence, and he may or may not have known that as well. Where we differ probably is that I've seen more than my share of police misconduct, and so I'm less likely than you to give the benefit of doubt to the cop. Knowing how humans generally act in situations like this, I think after the altercation at the car, Wilson was not in a good state of mind. The most logical explanation for the 3 second gap in gun shot fire was that the initial shots came as part of a chase, the final four once Brown turned around and was coming back toward Wilson.
 
I think PhantomWolf did a pretty good job getting a lot of the details out.

What is evidence for the 'no threat' assertions? Witness statements that Brown was not charging or even approaching, had his hands up, got on his knees, appear to be the basis for that assessment. The blood spots as well as casings prove Brown was coming at Wilson, and coupled with the time frame proves he was coming at Wilson fast, which disproves the 'not charging'. Wound placements and injury proves that his hands could not have been up or been on his knees. So what makes the witness assessment that Brown was no threat, credible? The witness who make that assessment also say a lot of other things incorrect or troubling, such as admitting they were not actually witnesses or insisting there were several officers in the car.

On what do you base the 'no threat' assessment? What evidence is there for it? The 'threat' assessment has a lot going for it, including a physical altercation. 'Ifs' with no evidence don't become evidence for something else. The Golden Mean Fallacy certainly isn't evidence.

Incorrect. Go to the underlying evidence and demonstrate your conclusions.
How could he be "charging" when a shot got him in the head, bent over? Try to picture that, if you will.
 
The most logical explanation for the 3 second gap in gun shot fire was that the initial shots came as part of a chase, the final four once Brown turned around and was coming back toward Wilson.

You can keep declaring this, but it's totally inconsistent with the position of the shells which were grouped within a short distance of each other. The shooter either moved forward out into the road towards Brown actually walking passed where Brown was killed, or back along the road slightly towards the footpath keeping brown in front of him. Since the final shots were from in front and slightly to the left of Brown, the shooter can't have been behind him.

Any other configuration makes not sense. For your scenario to work, Wilson would have had to walk towards Brown firing 6 shots, then in the 2 second gap, run backwards to where he started firing and a bit beyond, then walking backwards at the same speed as he walked forwards, fire the final 4. This is just crazy.
 
You must not have met the policemen I have met. All those I have met seemed to have very thin skins and react badly to insults.

Of course, I'm in another country and I certainly doin't have a reasonable sample.

No, Ive met cops like that. In one case, a drunk guy said some choice words to the cop, who then proceeded to turn his face into hamburger by pounding it into the asphalt. He then got his buddies to verify his story that the drunk had 'resisted arrest' (so they could avoid the assault charge). A jury bought their story and the judge ended up sending the drunk to jail. :o
 
Interesting analysis, ST, thanks for the respectful response!
I think you and I are actually pretty close in our analysis--closer than you might think. I think it's pretty likely that Brown's fear of getting busted for the robbery played a role--although with his background he really wasn't looking at a lengthy jail sentence, and he may or may not have known that as well. Where we differ probably is that I've seen more than my share of police misconduct, and so I'm less likely than you to give the benefit of doubt to the cop. Knowing how humans generally act in situations like this, I think after the altercation at the car, Wilson was not in a good state of mind. The most logical explanation for the 3 second gap in gun shot fire was that the initial shots came as part of a chase, the final four once Brown turned around and was coming back toward Wilson.

This not true at all and has been proven wrong by physical evidence and witness testimony.

I suggest before making any further comments in this thread you do these things:

a) read the transcripts
b) read the thread
c) at least look at posts by PhantomWolf and Cylinder who have spelled out what occurred in a clear and concise fashion.
 
It's always easy to pick apart a single witnesses statement, it's more important to look for consistencies between witnesses and the aspects of the testimony that are less likely affected by memory/perception etc. It's funny you bring up witness 10, who IMO outside of one or two of the obviously biased witnesses that favored Brown, was totally incredible. Just looking at the language it was obviously rehearsed or intentionally geared towards Wilson's version (using the word "charge" for example--why the heck does everyone use 'charge'--whatever happened to simple running??)

One of the strongest consistencies IMO was that most witnesses said he was shot at while fleeing. This makes perfect sense, and it matches the evidence.
Its the only thing that logically explains the 3 second gap!!

No, it doesn't, in fact what you just posted makes no sense to me at all. Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly: you think the gap (which you counted as 3 seconds) between the volley of six shots and the volley of four shots indicates the first six rounds were fired as he was fleeing? How then do you account for the fact that he had more than four wounds that had to have been inflicted from the front or top? There's only about one wound that might have been inflicted from the rear, there's eight or so total wounds (six entrance and two grazes) the rest of which had to have come from the front or as he was charging head down or falling forward. One wound, the one to the hand, was inflicted at very short range (6"-9") as indicated by the presence of 'soot' in the wound and was almost certainly the one received at the struggle in the beginning. Note that the one on the inside of his arm (and thus possibly inflicted from the rear) could also have been as the result of it being hit from the front with his arms outstretched.

Here's the forensic pathologist on the subject of the wounds. Right around page 190 it goes through all this, though for the 'fascinating' discussion of 'soot' in the wounds and how that indicates distance you need to go back to near the beginning.
 
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No, not even close, would have to be bent down another 30 degrees. And seriously injured, and non-pro-athlete...

Which is why I said something like and not exactly like. As to the seriously injured, not he wasn't. At most he was hit twice in the arm, that's painful, but it's not seriously injured.

It also doesn't take a pro-athlete to run like that. I used to ref rugby union, I saw kids run like that all the time, when they were planning to make a tackle.

Wilson actually stated that he thought Brown was making an attempt to tackle him, and witness 40 wrote that the charge was "head down like a football player"

People can run in that position very easily, it isn't the most stable, but if they are heading towards someone to make a tackle, it is effective.

Even closer

Another one
 
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No, not even close, would have to be bent down another 30 degrees. And seriously injured, and non-pro-athlete...

Stanfr, that Michael Brown was bent forward is established by the trajectory of other wounds through the body as well, it does not rely solely on the entry wound to the top of the head. If you don't want to read all that testimony (it's boring as hell-I wouldn't blame you!) then look at this graphic from the top left of this Washington Post page where they allude to it.
 
No, it doesn't, in fact what you just posted makes no sense to me at all. Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly: you think the gap (which you counted as 3 seconds) between the volley of six shots and the volley of four shots indicates the first six rounds were fired as he was fleeing? How then do you account for the fact that he had more than four wounds that had to have been inflicted from the front or top? There's only about one wound that might have been inflicted from the rear, there's eight or so total wounds (six entrance and two grazes) the rest of which had to have come from the front or as he was charging head down or falling forward. One wound, the one to the hand, was inflicted at very short range (6"-9") as indicated by the presence of 'soot' in the wound and was almost certainly the one received at the struggle in the beginning. Note that the one on the inside of his arm (and thus possibly inflicted from the rear) could also have been as the result of it being hit from the front with his arms outstretched.

Here's the forensic pathologist on the subject of the wounds. Right around page 190 it goes through all this, though for the 'fascinating' discussion of 'soot' in the wounds and how that indicates distance you need to go back to near the beginning.

4+2=6, not sure what the problem is? Im not claiming he was hit multiple times from the rear, at most once, just as you said.
 
Stanfr, that Michael Brown was bent forward is established by the trajectory of other wounds through the body as well, it does not rely solely on the entry wound to the top of the head. If you don't want to read all that testimony (it's boring as hell-I wouldn't blame you!) then look at this graphic from the top left of this Washington Post page where they allude to it.

why are you arguing with me, I agree he was bent over! Im saying he was not charging. Why don't you give it a try and feel how comfortable it is?
 
Stanfr, that Michael Brown was bent forward is established by the trajectory of other wounds through the body as well, it does not rely solely on the entry wound to the top of the head. If you don't want to read all that testimony (it's boring as hell-I wouldn't blame you!) then look at this graphic from the top left of this Washington Post page where they allude to it.

Correct, all three of the shots to the head/torso hit Brown when he was in the "tackler" position. The Private autopsy states...

Given Mr. Brown's height, his head had to be bent downward with his face near parallel to the ground and the top of his head facing the shooter when the gun was discharged to produce the head and face tracks. In that bent over position the three bullets would have had to have travelled approximately parallel to the ground to produce the head, forehead and chest perforations only inches apart and then continue in similar trajectories downward and to the right. The exit perforation of the facial wound at the right lower jaw then lines up with the re-entrance wound through the clavicle.

For the bullets to have almost identical trajectories, Brown and the shooter must have stayed in almost the same positions relative to each over during those shots. Brown can't have been falling to the ground during them, and in fact, none of the shots until the head shot would have caused him to fall to the ground, which indicates that the clavicle and forehead shots preceded the head shot. They were most likely shots 2, 3, and 4 for the second volley.
 
Which is why I said something like and not exactly like. As to the seriously injured, not he wasn't. At most he was hit twice in the arm, that's painful, but it's not seriously injured.

It also doesn't take a pro-athlete to run like that. I used to ref rugby union, I saw kids run like that all the time, when they were planning to make a tackle.

Wilson actually stated that he thought Brown was making an attempt to tackle him, and witness 40 wrote that the charge was "head down like a football player"

People can run in that position very easily, it isn't the most stable, but if they are heading towards someone to make a tackle, it is effective.

Even closer

Another one

Do you think Brown was suicidal? Just curious, you need not provide evidence, I'm just wondering why anyone would charge a guy who is clearly ready to kill you. Assuming any sort of logical thought process is involved (agreed, this is an assumption) the only recourse is to 1) run (which clearly did happen) or 2) Give up.
Incidentally, while I admire the level of effort you've put into your analysis on a whole, the whole 'charging like a tackler' thing seems beyond absurd to me. I mean, he might as well have painted a target on his cranium too saying "kill me"
 
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