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Rationalizing misstatements by the police is skepticism? :confused:


Rationalizing misstatements as misstatements by logically determining how they likely occurred rather than immediately declaring them lies? Yes, that is scepticism.
 
Wilson claims that Brown had his hand over the gun when the first shot was fired, this is consistent with the wound to the hand and lower arm od Brown, which is the only close contact wound.

Wilson that claims to have fired a second time, but was unsure if this shot hit. Brown did have a wound to the arm that was a graze, and this shot might have caused it, but it's impossible to tell.

These claims are consistent with the shell casings and blood evidence found at the scene.

Next Wilson claims that Brown ran and that he fired at him again. This is actually inconsistent with the evidence as there are no casings to support him having fired after exiting the vehicle and pursing Brown, nor are there unaccounted for rounds missing from his weapon.

Wilson then claims that Brown stopped, and turned towards him, bulking up and after a hop like step came at him head down at which point he fire a round of shots. The consistency here is an unknown as we don't know when Brown was hit, it is possible that he received the graze to this arm during this part. It is highly unlikely that Brown received any of the torso wound, and also unlikely that he was hit in the arm at this point, thought he may have received the through and through to his arm as well at this point. We know from the audio that Wilson fired 6 shots at this point.

Whenever the through and through occurred, it did so while Brown's hands were down because had they been up it would have rotated the upper arm, and the bullet would not have been able to enter the front upper arm and exit the back of the arm as was shown in the autopsy.

Wilson claims that Brown slowed, and then came on at him, during which time he paused his shooting, this is confirmed by the audio that places a 2 second pause between volleys.

Wilson then claims that Brown was coming at him and all he could see was the top of his head because he was bent over in the charge. This is consistent with the three bullets that struck Brown and travelled into his torso. One hit just below the clavicle and stopped at the 8th rib, one struck his forehead and travelled down to stop at the 5th rib, and the final shot entered the top of Brown's head, dropping him instantly. These shots could only have been made by a shooter directly inline with Brown's head and torso, so either Wilson was standing 10 feet above him, or Brown was bent at the waist with his head down, these are the only ways to explain these three bullets, particularly the one that struck his forehead.

The Audio tells us that Wilson fired 4 times in the second volley.

This is consistent with the 10 shells that were recovered where Wilson had been firing from.

There was one bullet left in the gun, making a total of 13, which is consistent with his weapon, 12 in the mag, 1 in the chamber.

So yes, Wilsons story is remarkably consistent with the physical evidence and the autopsy results.
Thank you. I will need to go over your chronology. I'm still confused as to the stature (how was Wilson standing) when he was struck in the head. How far away and how low was Wilson's head?
 
Does anybody have any thoughts about this article?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV

Video: Police lied. Mike Brown was killed 148 feet away from Darren Wilson's SUV

Of course the police were lying and anything Wilson says is totally self serving, nothing surprising about that. Until one officer, somewhere, will be willing to step across that thin blue line, they will always circle the wagons and cover each other. Same thing with doctors. If you (generic you) won't blow the whistle on a fellow officer, that officer will continue to get away with their bad actions. At least Wilson won't be in Ferguson any more.

I said it many times here and elsewhere - the police chief's shifting and lying only serves to confuse matters, and even worse, looks like a coverup to protect a corrupt cop. If Wilson's shooting was justified, they aren't doing him any favors at all. I believe it was the friday after the shooting - when he released the store video that he claimed was unrelated to the shooting, before backpeddling - that I said that I had no confidence in anything he said, and that he certainly should resign for his fumbling.

This is a basic failure of comprehension. The body was 150' from the SUV, some people are assuming that Wilson never left the SUV and shot him from 50 yards away, a ridiculous scenario. KatieG and Mumbles should know this information by now, yet here we have them immediately, without a shred of critical thought, jump in and declare the police liars.

KatieG and Mumbles, have either of you even bothered to look at the evidence, or what Wilson's story actually was? These things are kind of important, details matter.
 
And ignoring the fact the Ferguson PD has a pretty spotty reputation, I guess that's skepticism too.
 
Thank you. I will need to go over your chronology. I'm still confused as to the stature (how was Wilson standing) when he was struck in the head. How far away and how low was Wilson's head?
I assume you mean "Brown" when you say "Wilson"?

IIRC the final shot, the fatal one to the top of the head, was from about 10'-15' away.
 
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And ignoring the fact the Ferguson PD has a pretty spotty reputation, I guess that's skepticism too.
And just how could they get away with a lie like that? There's a bazillion pictures of the scene showing Wilson's SUV and Brown's body. For your conspiracy theory to work they would have had to stage the entire scene, including moving Wilson's vehicle, before any bystanders took a picture, without any bystanders noticing, and in broad daylight.

There's skepticism, and there's conspiracy theory nuttery.
 
This is interesting. Apologies if it's already been posted.

Shocking mistake in Darren Wilson grand jury
Already been posted, and already explained that the mistake was corrected shortly after.

This incident really shows how accurate Mark Twain was when he said “A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”

eta: but in the internet age the lie travels 12 times around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
 
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Thank you. I will need to go over your chronology. I'm still confused as to the stature (how was Wilson standing) when he was struck in the head. How far away and how low was Wilson's head?

I think you mean Brown, Wilson is the Police Officer.

The rest I can't tell you too much, unfortunately the autopsy doesn't give actually give exact angles, but they were down and to the right.

This is the conclusion of the Private Autopsy...

Given Mr. Brown's height, his head had to be bent downward with his face near parallel to the ground and the top of his head facing the shooter when the gun was discharged to produce the head and face tracks. In that bent over position the three bullets would have had to have travelled approximately parallel to the ground to produce the head, forehead and chest perforations only inches apart and then continue in similar trajectories downward and to the right. The exit perforation of the facial wound at the right lower jaw then lines up with the re-entrance wound through the clavicle.

Wilson stated the distance at about 10 feet, though take that with a grain of salt, our brains tend to make threats seem closer than they actually are. I haven't seen any measurements from where he fired the final shot to Brown's body, it's possible they don't know as Wilson likely moved before it was marked.
 
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And ignoring the fact the Ferguson PD has a pretty spotty reputation, I guess that's skepticism too.

Ignoring that it would be totally illogical to lie considering that lots of people saw the scene afterwards, it was sketched and photographed, it'd be like claiming that the sky is orange and thinking people would believe it. There is also no need to lie, in fact having Wilson 150 feet from the vehicle actually improves his position, he wasn't able to get back to the safety of the vehicle for protection. There is absolutely no reason or logic to lie, whereas the distance given makes sense if it was an misunderstanding of the information given, i.e. he didn't realise that Wilson had pursed Brown.
 
Already been posted, and already explained that the mistake was corrected shortly after.

Thanks.

I apologize for not taking the many hours needed to read the entire thread since my last visit to find that. I have a life, and can't always work daily on my 54,685th post.
 
Whenever the through and through occurred, it did so while Brown's hands were down because had they been up it would have rotated the upper arm, and the bullet would not have been able to enter the front upper arm and exit the back of the arm as was shown in the autopsy.

Wilson claims that Brown slowed, and then came on at him, during which time he paused his shooting, this is confirmed by the audio that places a 2 second pause between volleys.

Okay a couple of corrections to this.

I have decided that it is actually likely, based on the witness statements, that the through and through to the arm occurred during the first 6 shot volley, as multiple witnesses have stated that Brown reacted as if hit. None of the torso shots really makes a lot of sense here as they'd likely have slowed him down and this is the second correction...

Wilson actually claims that Brown didn't slow (I believe I have confused him with one of the other witnesses who said he did, my fault there)

He paused to order Brown to stop, and he didn't, so he resumed firing.
 
Sorry if this has already been addressed but I don't have the time to read through a million pages. I've skimmed the last few.

Officer Darren Wilson Lied About Knowing of Store Theft Before Shooting Michael Brown in Ferguson?

edit: this video mentions the "shocking mistake" video briefly which has (apparently, I haven't read this part of the thread) been accounted for)
I'm wondering what people think about what's revealed in this video (in particular from the timestamp onward) regarding the transcripts of the GJ trial.

Some contradictory points about Wilson's knowledge of the robbery is pointed out and the fact that the prosecutors do a poor job in cross-examination.
 
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Thanks.

I apologize for not taking the many hours needed to read the entire thread since my last visit to find that. I have a life, and can't always work daily on my 54,685th post.
Oh I wasn't directing the Twain quote at you, it's just how many times it has been brought up not just in this thread but all over the internet. It's dozens of times more prevalent than the story of the incorrect jury instruction being corrected.

I certainly don't expect everyone to know, since the full facts are a needle in a haystack at this point.
 
Sorry if this has already been addressed but I don't have the time to read through a million pages. I've skimmed the last few.

Officer Darren Wilson Lied About Knowing of Store Theft Before Shooting Michael Brown in Ferguson?

edit: this video mentions the "shocking mistake" video briefly which has (apparently, I haven't read this part of the thread) been accounted for)
I'm wondering what people think about what's revealed in this video (in particular from the timestamp onward) regarding the transcripts of the GJ trial.

Some contradictory points about Wilson's knowledge of the robbery is pointed out and the fact that the prosecutors do a poor job in cross-examination.
There were 2 contacts Wilson made with Brown and Johnson. The first one he told them to get out of the middle of the street, that's what that point of the transcript was about. He started to drive away, then realized they matched the description of the robbers and went back for the second contact, and it's the second one where the stuff went down.
 
Oh I wasn't directing the Twain quote at you, it's just how many times it has been brought up not just in this thread but all over the internet. It's dozens of times more prevalent than the story of the incorrect jury instruction being corrected.

I certainly don't expect everyone to know, since the full facts are a needle in a haystack at this point.

Then I apologize for the snark WC.
 
I certainly don't expect everyone to know, since the full facts are a needle in a haystack at this point.

One of the reasons I have stuck mostly to the physical evidence so far, apart from the fact that eye-witness testimony is awful to try and weed through, and like the future, is always in motion.

The thing is that people remember things later that they didn't recall at the time. Perceptions are changed about what was seen based on biases. Our brains add in the missing bit, even if what it adds in doesn't make a lot of sense, often from things we learn about afterwards. Sadly the more we repeat something, or even think about something, the more likely we are to corrupt the memory so while details we don't recall immediately might come to light, details that are false and added by our own or outside influences might end up in our memories just as much.

I really don't put a lot of stock in anything Wilson says, or any of the other witnesses, unless it matches up with the physical evidence, but I also don't instantly assume that a witness or Wilson is deliberately lying when it doesn't match. People get things wrong all the time, often they mean well. (Heck I did up thread, I mixed up what Wilson and one of the other witnesses said, I was wrong, but I wasn't lying.) I tend to find it rather strange how quickly people accuse those that they oppose of lying when one of them makes a mistake. It's not surprising that a lot of people refuse to admit their errors, when if they do they'll be called a liar.
 
Then I apologize for the snark WC.

The jibe was creative; that counts for something. Plus WC now has 54,689 posts, many of them advocating the right of center view on a left of center forum, so I suspect he isn't all that sensitive.

For some reason the link you posted isn't working for me but I think it was to Daily Kos article I linked to just a few posts prior to the link you posted. There was a brief discussion of the issue that followed. PhantomWolf provided what I thought was the best answer if you are trying to limit your reading on this:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10350385#post10350385

But if you feel a need to get the pulse of the more anti-Wilson posters you might want to just read through a bit more of the thread following my link. The anti-Wilson posts are sprinkled throughout.

my post:
Does anybody have any thoughts about this article?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV

Video: Police lied. Mike Brown was killed 148 feet away from Darren Wilson's SUV
 
There were 2 contacts Wilson made with Brown and Johnson. The first one he told them to get out of the middle of the street, that's what that point of the transcript was about. He started to drive away, then realized they matched the description of the robbers and went back for the second contact, and it's the second one where the stuff went down.
This still doesn't agree with what the sergeant says (around the 5 min mark) regarding Wilson not knowing anything about the robbery at the time.

Also, it appears my video above doesn't work (at least for me). Here it is again just in case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhWBdFwUj7E

and I'd love for someone to link to the correction regarding the outdated law being handed to the GJ
 
This still doesn't agree with what the sergeant says (around the 5 min mark) regarding Wilson not knowing anything about the robbery at the time.

Also, it appears my video above doesn't work (at least for me). Here it is again just in case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhWBdFwUj7E

See my above about eye witness testimony, it unreliable, extremely so. It could be that Wilson initially didn't recall when speaking to the Sergeant, but later did. It might be that he didn't hear the call, but in subsequent tells and questionings, it has become inserted into his memory. It could be that his brain just filled it in. It could be that he was talking out his butt because he figured it sounded better than reversing because he saw the two do a rude gesture in the mirror.

The problem is that only one person truly knows why he reversed, and only 3 people truly know what happened prior to the first shot.

What we can so for sure is that Brown was partially inside the car, Wilson received damage to his face on the right side, and that Brown's lower arm was shot inside the SUV.

The problem beyond that is that one person is dead, and the other two have reasons to make the encounter sound like they were the victim.

Beyond what occurred at the car things become much clear as there is a lot of physical evidence that we can match the witness testimony against.

and I'd love for someone to link to the correction regarding the outdated law being handed to the GJ

It's already been dealt with, the story is wrong. They were given the outdated law, true, but it was fixed rather quickly, the story's originator cherry picked from the GJ testimony.

I'd also note that even if they hadn't fixed the error quickly, it was irrelevant since Wilson never fired at Brown when he was running away.
 
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