Michael Brown shooting II

[The Norseman]

Even if he had a taser, he would have been absolutely nuts to have it drawn instead of his firearm.

When, in your view, is it acceptable to draw a taser?

It's really irrelevant. This was not a taser situation even if he had one.

Really? When does it become a taser situation? I mean, besides tasing passively-resisting protestors.

When is it a pepper-spray moment?

How about time for the baton?

Seriously, you guys never argue once for using one item other than the gun, so far that I've read of your comments over various threads. Every scenario on iSkep recently have you both pumping the police paranoia and every shooting is a valid one because reasons.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Yeah, and look where it ended him up: A bad name, and a resignation. This, I think, is part of the problem. Many cops do carry a taser, as a largely non-lethal option.

This boils down to being psychic. When Wilson went out on patrol that day he had no way of knowing that he would be put in a position of having to draw and fire his weapon. To him it was going to be just like that previous hundreds of times he went on patrol, mostly quiet and no need to draw his weapon. It is only stupid from hindsight, though for some reason people in these threads keep demanding that the cops acted on knowledge that they could not have had before the incident occurred, amazing coming from a so called Skeptics board that doesn't believe in ESP.

Between a taser, a can of pepper spray, and a baton, there are three options a cop should have before reaching for the gun.

Except that he didn't have a Taser, so that one is out.

Pepper spray is only effective between 3 and 10 feet, it takes several seconds to take effect, and is generally useless if used on enraged or intoxicated individuals. Brown was charging at him, was shot at 10 feet, and was both high and enraged. Using Pepper spray would have been ineffective

Using a Baton against an enraged guy that has 30kg on you in a 1 on 1 situation is dangerous at best, and suicidal at worst.

None of these options was viable.

 

[WildCat]

Really? When does it become a taser situation? I mean, besides tasing passively-resisting protestors.

When is it a pepper-spray moment?

How about time for the baton?

Seriously, you guys never argue once for using one item other than the gun, so far that I've read of your comments over various threads. Every scenario on iSkep recently have you both pumping the police paranoia and every shooting is a valid one because reasons.

He was by himself with no one to back him up if the taser fails, as they often do.

Brown was not "passively resisting", he had already attacked the cop and tried to take his gun. The only person who put Michael Brown in the situation he was in was Michael Brown.

This was real life, not TV, not a Hollywood movie.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Based on recent police actions, I don't think so.

You mean the very few police actions you've heard about recently.

 

[KatieG]

It's really irrelevant. This was not a taser situation even if he had one.

That's not your call to make. It's standard issue police gear. Other officers don't seem to have a problem with theirs.

 

[KatieG]

You mean the very few police actions you've heard about recently.

You know jack doodley squat about me, my life, what I do, and what I've heard about.

 

[The Norseman]

He was by himself with no one to back him up if the taser fails, as they often do.

Brown was not "passively resisting", he had already attacked the cop and tried to take his gun. The only person who put Michael Brown in the situation he was in was Michael Brown.

Never said he was passively resisting. Tasers and pepper-spray seems reserved only for those people though these days while the Way of the Gun rules.

This was real life, not TV, not a Hollywood movie.

Yes, it's silly of me to expect law enforcement to be highly trained and discerning individuals who only seem to exist in Hollywood.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's not your call to make.

You haven't provided evidence that it wasn't Wilson's call to make either.

It's standard issue police gear. Other officers don't seem to have a problem with theirs.

Evidence that no other officers have a problem with theirs?

 

[PhantomWolf]

When, in your view, is it acceptable to draw a taser?

In the right circumstances.

Really? When does it become a taser situation? I mean, besides tasing passively-resisting protestors.

Tasers shouldn't be used on protesters. Tasers are good at a range of up to 35 feet again slow moving or stationary targets where there are options that can be switched to in case of a miss or the weapon being ineffective. They are not a very good weapon against fast moving or enraged targets.

When is it a pepper-spray moment?

Pepper spray is good for close situations, within 10 feet, where the person is resisting and needs controlling and the officer has time to allow it to work. Against charging, enraged, or doped up individuals pepper spray is totally ineffective.

How about time for the baton?

Batons are a weapon for close in hand to hand combat, most effective when you have multiple officers on a target or have been forced into a position where you are in melee distance with an individual. If you're having to resort to a baton and you're alone, you are probably in serious danger because just like any other weapon in melee, it can be removed from you and used against you.

Seriously, you guys never argue once for using one item other than the gun, so far that I've read of your comments over various threads. Every scenario on iSkep recently have you both pumping the police paranoia and every shooting is a valid one because reasons.

The argument isn't made because it's not a good argument to make. As to supporting the police in every shooting, I have noted the shooting of Douglas Zerby, who was shot without warning on his friend's porch while holding a hose head, multiple times on the board and I have yet to see any real responses to it.

 

[PhantomWolf]

That's not your call to make. It's standard issue police gear. Other officers don't seem to have a problem with theirs.

Is it? Please provide the evidence that all Ferguson Police Officers are required to carry a Taser unit? Thanks in advance.

 

[KatieG]

They wear them.

 

[The Norseman]

In the right circumstances.

Which are...?

Tasers shouldn't be used on protesters.

I agree. Reality shows that apparently they aren't much used for anything else though.

Tasers are good at a range of up to 35 feet again slow moving or stationary targets where there are options that can be switched to in case of a miss or the weapon being ineffective. They are not a very good weapon against fast moving or enraged targets.

Pepper spray is good for close situations, within 10 feet, where the person is resisting and needs controlling and the officer has time to allow it to work. Against charging, enraged, or doped up individuals pepper spray is totally ineffective.

Batons are a weapon for close in hand to hand combat, most effective when you have multiple officers on a target or have been forced into a position where you are in melee distance with an individual. If you're having to resort to a baton and you're alone, you are probably in serious danger because just like any other weapon in melee, it can be removed from you and used against you.

Alright, I appreciate the answers.

The argument isn't made because it's not a good argument to make. As to supporting the police in every shooting, I have noted the shooting of Douglas Zerby, who was shot without warning on his friend's porch while holding a hose head, multiple times on the board and I have yet to see any real responses to it.

Good point and I stand corrected because I do recall your mentioning this case several times.

 

[Cylinder]

Wilson wasn't required to wear a taser and his supervisor was aware that he elected not to carry one. [Vol. V; p. 55]

 

[carlitos]

The hilited bit is a strawman, I said no such thing. And you are wrong about Ferguson being an "impoverished community", even for the black residents. In fact the black population in Ferguson has a lower poverty level than Missouri as a whole.

Yeah, after all of this, I wonder if most people looking at the case know that. Ferguson isn't some inner-city ghetto; it was actually pretty nice before the riots.

 

[PhantomWolf]

They wear them.

Ahh, so exactly zero evidence, colour me surprise.

 

[Nihilianth]

This boils down to being psychic. When Wilson went out on patrol that day he had no way of knowing that he would be put in a position of having to draw and fire his weapon. To him it was going to be just like that previous hundreds of times he went on patrol, mostly quiet and no need to draw his weapon. It is only stupid from hindsight, though for some reason people in these threads keep demanding that the cops acted on knowledge that they could not have had before the incident occurred, amazing coming from a so called Skeptics board that doesn't believe in ESP.



Except that he didn't have a Taser, so that one is out.

Pepper spray is only effective between 3 and 10 feet, it takes several seconds to take effect, and is generally useless if used on enraged or intoxicated individuals. Brown was charging at him, was shot at 10 feet, and was both high and enraged. Using Pepper spray would have been ineffective

Using a Baton against an enraged guy that has 30kg on you in a 1 on 1 situation is dangerous at best, and suicidal at worst.

None of these options was viable.

First, the whole "ESP" thing is totally irrelevant, and frankly, a bit obnoxious.


He didn't have a taser. So you have said. Again, my question: "Why not?" and no, "because it was uncomfortable" is not an excuse for the officer not to have had a largely non-lethal police issue tool. (Non-lethal, so long as it isn't obnoxiously abused on an individual.)

I will grant you that this particular case probably did not have anywhere near enough evidence against Wilson to obtain any sort of conviction. However, there is an even greater issue than this at hand:

Guns, fear, and racism. Fueled largely by Fox News and far-right conservative Tea-Partiers who do not want to even discuss the possibility of racism, poverty, and guns as problems in this country.

I'll give you a few statistics:

According to USA Today, there are upwards of 400 police killings each year in the United States. The exact figure is largely unknown.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/

According to The Economist, British officers only fired their guns three times last year;
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/armed-police

According to RT.com, German police:

The rate at which German police discharged their firearms is further underscored by how rarely they shot with fatal intent. Of the 85 bullets used in 2011, 49 were warnings shots, 36 were aimed at criminal suspects, 15 people were injured, and 6 were killed, the German daily continues.

http://rt.com/usa/us-germany-85-shots-022/

We have a problem in this country. A serious problem. The people own guns because they are afraid of the mystical random home invasion. Cops are suspicious of the public, particularly black people. Blacks are scared of cops. And everyone MUST own a gun!

Trayvon Martin was a high-profile case. Michael Brown even more high-profile, on the order of Rodney King. Things are only going to continue to get worse, as we accept the excuse that cops should automatically reach for their guns. Maybe in this case with Michael Brown, it was at least not "criminal" what officer Wilson had done. But it sure as **** happened in front of a whole lot of witnesses in broad daylight. They left the body in the middle of the road for all the world to see with a river of blood coming out of it before they finally were able to cover it up. And later on, the police department disrespected the memorial the people on the community set up by running over it. Then they brought out full military gear in order to deal with the riots that happened afterwards. The site of tanks on the streets of an American city, and the statistics of police departments harboring military-grade weapons only further enraged people.

We have far too many people sitting in prison on trumped-up drug charges in the name of the so-called "War on Drugs." Blacks are targeted at a far greater rate than whites when it comes to drugs. Same with stopping people in their cars.

Personally, I have experience three separate racist incidents in three years while attending school in a city in PA. As a white guy with black friends in my car, on three separate occasions, I was pulled over for no apparent reason, other than the officers wanting to check the (black) passenger's IDs. I was the one driving all three times. And I was not speeding, and my car registration was up-to-day. It's nuts. No reason why I should have been pulled over, and even less of a reason why passengers have to have their IDs checked, but not the driver's.

 

[NoahFence]

Yeah, after all of this, I wonder if most people looking at the case know that. Ferguson isn't some inner-city ghetto; it was actually pretty nice before the riots.

Most people looking at the case stop looking at it depending on where their confirmation bias kicks in. Usually pretty quick.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I agree. Reality shows that apparently they aren't much used for anything else though.

I'd disagree, the issue is that you don't hear about the thousands of times that Tasers are presented or fired where they were effective and the person on whom it was presented or use really deserved it. Those stories don't make for good press because they don't inspire outrage. It's better to highlight the cases where it's at best a grey area and then if you can twist it as far as possible to make the cops sound like they are plain evil, even better. You know like "Woman Tasered at Traffic Stop!" We'll just forgot to add that she refused to exit the vehicle despite repeated commands to do so over half an hour, and slammed the door on the cop several times when they opened it to get her out....

Alright, I appreciate the answers.

Honestly they weren't hard to find. Both a Taser and Pepper spray are publically available items in the US and the manufacturers give the details on how they should be used, and when they won't work. I have previous posted the details for Mace in either this thread, or one of the other similar ones.

I have had personal training with a long baton, so I know its limitations. If you are really skilled with them, they can be a very good weapon, allowing you to disarm people with the likes of bottles or knives. I personally would not recommend one against someone with a gun, or someone charging at you unless you had no other choices at all.

 

[Kaosium]

For fear this has already been covered, what is the basis behind how fast Wilson was shooting? If a person is staggering, they may go 20 ft., if the shooter is only taking one or two shots at a time, as opposed to all 6 (15 shots fired in total?) one-after-the-other.

Darren Wilson fired 12 shots, 2 at the police vehicle, a volley of six in rapid succession, then a two second pause followed by an additional four. His Sig-Sauer 229 .40 (skip to ~5:30) held 12+1 and he had one bullet left in the chamber afterward (pg. 17). I see that Wildcat has posted a youtube that includes a recording of the last ten shots which I relink here (~1:12) as well as Cylinder's diagram:

The shell casings can still land in the same spots. And the shooter can still back up slowly as the person is staggering towards them.

On asphalt casings can skitter or roll (but generally in a tiny circle due to the shape of the casing) and of course be kicked or blown so they're not absolute indicators, but if you watch the video I linked of the Sig 229 being fired you can see the spent casings go directly out the top and if the gun is 'listing' either way they'll generally go in that direction. As there's some that are about 15-20 feet away from the main group near the final location of the body that's suggestive that Wilson was moving and being as Michael Brown coming towards him at the end is well supported by both physical and eyewitness evidence it would figure that pattern is most easily explained by Wilson retreating like he said.

Michael Brown may have been staggering, but the resumption of fire, the shell casings and his final location suggest he was closing on Darren Wilson and it was the final shots that dropped him, especially the ones to the face and head--the latter possibly caused by a final shot as he was dropping.

Of course, the problem with this, is that the onus of proving this is on the prosecution in an actual trial.

This one isn't very complicated, the event took place in about a minute, the scene was pretty much preserved intact. There's also significant evidence from ten minutes beforehand Michael Brown was behaving criminally and was unaccountably violent at the Ferguson Market, and physical evidence taken right after the shooting to indicate Darren Wilson had been injured--even Dorian Johnson's account includes a scuffle at the car. Then add in the evidence that Michael Brown had reached the area of the blood spots then returned to where he finally dropped with there being only one immediately incapacitating wound administered (p. 170) which was almost certainly the last one to hit (199) and the casing evidence and eyewitnesses indicating confirmation of Wilson's account of Brown closing on him and there's not much reason to believe anything significantly different from his testimony could have happened.

 

[Kaosium]

When, in your view, is it acceptable to draw a taser?



Really? When does it become a taser situation? I mean, besides tasing passively-resisting protestors.

When is it a pepper-spray moment?

How about time for the baton?

Seriously, you guys never argue once for using one item other than the gun, so far that I've read of your comments over various threads. Every scenario on iSkep recently have you both pumping the police paranoia and every shooting is a valid one because reasons.

Darren Wilson goes through his options and why he didn't choose them in his post-shooting interview (p. 6-9). The one he didn't mention that I wondered why he didn't consider was simply putting the vehicle in gear and hitting the accelerator. That would have solved his immediate problem without having to bring out the gun, which just made his situation worse and from his own account almost got him shot.


Once he was out of the vehicle, the problem with a guy the size of a typical NFL Offensive lineman attacking is that if you have a gun and don't use it then in short order it could be his gun. He's still that big and strong and odds are you're not only without your gun you're beaten and quite possibly about to draw your final breath...