Michael Brown shooting II

[stanfr]

You don't think that Prosecutor's can prosecute cops because they work with them? I bet that is a surprise to all of the bent cops who have ended up in Jail. Or are you going to provide evidence that the Two Assistant Prosecutors that took the GJ were friends of Wilson?

The difference is that this was a case of cop shooting an unarmed guy. Do you know how many of those cases end up with the cop going to jail?

The two Assistant Prosecutors that ran the case gave the Jury all of their evidence because they had no choice. The only reason it went to the GJ was to try and placate the mobs.

Well, we party agree there, lol. Didn't work too well though...I think it as mainly done to lay out the case in a way most favorable to Wilson and then release that heavily tailored case to the media (extremely unusual) That worked very well, because it suckered a lot of intelligent people like yourself who aren't familiar with grand juries into thinking the result was correct.

I'll help you. Here's what they couldn't have used if they wanted to get an indictment

1) Any of the Three Autopsy results.
2) Any of the physical evidence at the scene, such as blood and shell casing positions
3) Any of the 7 witnesses that stated that Brown was moving towards Wilson at the time of the shooting
4) Any of the remaining witnesses who changed their statements on the stand, which is all but 1

blah blah blah...all evidence that could have been brought up by the defense at trial. Again, you are confusing the role of a GJ with the role of a regular trial.

What do you think would happen to that case at trial?

As I said before, it likely would have ended in an acquittal. Partly due to the great deference that juries give police witnesses. Ive defended clients in jury trials where the cops were most definitely lying but the jurors just could not conceive of a cop lying. Its a systemic problem. That said, I don't think M Brown makes a good poster child for police violence, and as one with a full time job and other interests in life than this forum, I need to bow out of this thread pretty soon. Im just disappointed that some here can't see some of the injustices in this case, which in turn are a reflection of greater problems in race relations, police authority, gun violence...etc.

 

[stanfr]

Why wouldn't blood from his hand be as you describe? If he is facing one way, then turns around and faces the other way those blood drops are exactly as we'd expect. If he's "staggering side to side" how did he end up 20' towards Wilson?

look at the crime scene photos.

 

[stanfr]

So how'd he get 20 feet closer to Wilson, in a matter of seconds, before falling face first into the pavement, if he was only 'staggering from side to side'? That's a whole lot of sideways staggering.
I can see a fairly easy, more logical second explanation, for the spatter pattern. He was pissed off and shifting his weight from side to side for a moment, before charging back at Wilson.

he was also falling forward in those final seconds. But the pattern is very spread from side to side--a good 6-10 feet. It doesn't look to me like he was moving in a direct line towards Wilson, as one who was 'charging' would be.

 

[WildCat]

look at the crime scene photos.

Post a link to the photos you want me to look at, and then describe what it is you think I should be seeing in them.

I'm certainly not going to go on a wild goose chase just so you come back and say "no, that's not the photo I was talking about".

 

[stanfr]

Wildcat, I don't see anything crucial in your long response to respond to, since your mind is made up about this case. And I don't want to spend my token day off researching the lengthy GJ minutes. So i'll just leave you with a little thought exercise. Try clearing your mind of all previous conceptions and biases. Kind of a wooish Zen-like transformation Then ask yourself, that if Mike Brown was your son, you would feel comfortable with the outcome here. No need to respond to me and tell me "Well, since my son was a thug, he got what he deserved"--just try the exercise. You can do it, man!

Oh--and I just saw your last response, so yeah, ill try to dig up a link later if I can find some time

 

[WildCat]

Wildcat, I don't see anything crucial in your long response to respond to, since your mind is made up about this case. And I don't want to spend my token day off researching the lengthy GJ minutes. So i'll just leave you with a little thought exercise. Try clearing your mind of all previous conceptions and biases. Kind of a wooish Zen-like transformation Then ask yourself, that if Mike Brown was your son, you would feel comfortable with the outcome here. No need to respond to me and tell me "Well, since my son was a thug, he got what he deserved"--just try the exercise. You can do it, man!

Oh--and I just saw your last response, so yeah, ill try to dig up a link later if I can find some time

So now you make an appeal to emotion on a critical thinking forum?

I'd prefer to discuss the physical evidence (any luck finding those pictures you mention?) and how that meshes with witness accounts.

 

[stanfr]

So now you make an appeal to emotion on a critical thinking forum?

I'd prefer to discuss the physical evidence (any luck finding those pictures you mention?) and how that meshes with witness accounts.

FAIL! Well, I didn't say it would be an easy exercise...asking someone who is incapable of empathy.

 

[Kaosium]

look at the crime scene photos.

Here's a better pic for them, from the NYT page. I thought I could just post the pic from that other article, didn't come out that way. Note that #16 & #18 are casings.

What in those pictures lead you to your conclusions?

 

[tsig]

From Grand Jury Volume 5 pages 224-225. That's the attack in the truck.

Thanks.

 

[tsig]

How did Wilson know Brown had a demonic look when he was charging him face down.

Look, yet another person in the thread who is here purely for the snark, not to discuss facts.

Thanks, not.

 

[tsig]

Can you cite any testimony from Wilson where he described the look on Brown's face while he was charging?

No? Didn't think so but thanks for playing!

You should have read the post I was responding to.

 

[WildCat]

FAIL! Well, I didn't say it would be an easy exercise...asking someone who is incapable of empathy.

Empathy has no place in this discussion. You don't put someone in prison for a crime they didn't commit because you empathize with the parents of the deceased.

 

[WildCat]

You should have read the post I was responding to.

I read it, I also know the context.

Hint: Wilson wasn't talking about the charge where he fired the fatal shots.

 

[Cylinder]

I'm unclear as well -- are we talking about Markers 19 & 20 or the peri/post-mortem blood stain that emanated from Brown's body?

[imgw=400]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=853&pictureid=9300[/imgw]

 

[stanfr]

Here's a better pic for them, from the NYT page. I thought I could just post the pic from that other article, didn't come out that way. Note that #16 & #18 are casings.

What in those pictures lead you to your conclusions?

Thanks, Kaosium--yeah I just realized that 16 & 18 were casings--didn't catch that at first, my bad!

 

[stanfr]

Empathy has no place in this discussion. You don't put someone in prison for a crime they didn't commit because you empathize with the parents of the deceased.

likewise, you don't allow cops free reign to gun down unarmed citizens because you have no empathy for their plight, and have no real concept of the racial and social dynamics that come into play in an impoverished community with a largely minority community dealing with a mostly white police force. You think you can divorce the discussion from those dynamics. I believe you are incorrect. How Mike Brown and Darren Wilson were thinking when this incident occurred has much to do with how it played out.

 

[Ziggurat]

Then ask yourself, that if Mike Brown was your son, you would feel comfortable with the outcome here. No need to respond to me and tell me "Well, since my son was a thug, he got what he deserved"--just try the exercise. You can do it, man!

I don't know how any parent can ever be "comfortable" with the death of their child, regardless of the circumstances. So that's really not in any way relevant to whether or not Wilson was justified in shooting Brown. It's an appeal to emotion, and Wildcat is right that it really has no place in this discussion. There's a reason we don't let crime victims decide on the punishment for criminals, and it's got nothing to do with not caring about those victims.

 

[varwoche]

For days now multiple sites have been having a field day with this cherry picked testimony:

Every single day I see a new article trying to make something of it.

http://www.alternet.org/5-not-so-credible-events-darren-wilsons-testimony
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...rguson-officer-who-shot-michael-brown-resigns

I haven't followed these links yet -- I will shortly. But whatever they do or do not contain, Wilson's hyper-ventilated observations, such as the "demon" bs, impress me as incredibly amateurish at a bare minimum, and worthy of comment. Sounds like an hysterical witness, not a law enforcement professional.

 

[tsig]

I read it, I also know the context.

Hint: Wilson wasn't talking about the charge where he fired the fatal shots.

If he didn't see the demon face then why was he still scared?

Big black teenagers are most dangerous when wounded?

 

[WildCat]

likewise, you don't allow cops free reign to gun down unarmed citizens because you have no empathy for their plight, and have no real concept of the racial and social dynamics that come into play in an impoverished community with a largely minority community dealing with a mostly white police force. You think you can divorce the discussion from those dynamics. I believe you are incorrect. How Mike Brown and Darren Wilson were thinking when this incident occurred has much to do with how it played out.

The hilited bit is a strawman, I said no such thing. And you are wrong about Ferguson being an "impoverished community", even for the black residents. In fact the black population in Ferguson has a lower poverty level than Missouri as a whole.