Global warming discussion III

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High-tech mirror beams heat away from buildings into space
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/11/141126133821.htm

The real breakthrough is how the Stanford material radiates heat away from buildings.

As science students know, heat can be transferred in three ways: conduction, convection and radiation. Conduction transfers heat by touch. That's why you don't touch a hot oven pan without wearing a mitt. Convection transfers heat by movement of fluids or air. It's the warm rush of air when the oven is opened. Radiation transfers heat in the form of infrared light that emanates outward from objects, sight unseen.

The first part of the coating's one-two punch radiates heat-bearing infrared light directly into space. The ultrathin coating was carefully constructed to send this infrared light away from buildings at the precise frequency that allows it to pass through the atmosphere without warming the air, a key feature given the dangers of global warming.

"Think about it like having a window into space," Fan said.
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That's something to think about. Sidestep the CO2 and go straight to the sink.
 
Trakar said:
Sets off a lot of snake-oil alarms to me. The IR radiation is going to occur regardless of the mirror on the top of the building, and the mirror is going to reflect more than a coat of titanium white paint,...but not a whole lot more. http://energy.lbl.gov/coolroof/coating.htm
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I understand it to mean that the material emits radiative energy at a specific wavelength, instead of across the IR spectrum, and that it can be tuned to emit this energy at a wavelength that won't be absorbed by the atmosphere unlike the broad-spectrum emission of a normal roof.

It's a promising and interesting material, even if it proves not to be helpful at the task of mitigating AGW effects.
 
RedPillNeo said:
I understand it to mean that the material emits radiative energy at a specific wavelength, instead of across the IR spectrum, and that it can be tuned to emit this energy at a wavelength that won't be absorbed by the atmosphere unlike the broad-spectrum emission of a normal roof.

It's a promising and interesting material, even if it proves not to be helpful at the task of mitigating AGW effects.
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That it does but only a small fraction of the energy that transits the layers. (</= 5% is where they are positing if I am reading correctly) Big problem is that they have no way to capture and transmit the internal building IR to the "lens" and only a few percent of the energy transmitted ends up in the form of IR at the atmospheric window frequencies. Manufacture is expensive. TiO paint matches the reflectance capacity (97%) in Visible frequencies and reflects all IR frequencies at above 90%. This material may tune a small amount of the IR to atmospheric window frequencies but it is a very small fraction over a small area for relatively high cost.

I'm not saying that it is useless, merely complicated and expensive to manufacture while actually delivering miniscule benefits over more simple and relatively cheap alternatives. You are correct, interesting, and I suppose that effort may result in an improved product and manufacturing process.
 
Arnold Martin said:
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You guys are a strange bunch .... if there is less ice somewhere in the world you jump up and down and proclaim global warming

But if there is more ice than normal you pretend it means nothing
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I think it's more due to your misunderstanding of what the hell is going on in the world. You're looking for a simple answer. Global warming ? Why is there still ice ???? Well, on average there will be warmer weather, but +3 degrees means your -30 is still -27 and damn cold, and although ice will retreat on average, you have years where it will stay longer than usual, just as it did before warming. And a warmer atmosphere means more movement (wind) and more extreme weather, hot or cold.
 
Well, on average there will be warmer weather, but +3 degrees means your -30 is still -27 and damn cold
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Umm not really - the level of cold at a given time is not dependent on the global average - it's dependent on the radiation to space at the specific location.
If there is no sun and clear skies for a long period then record cold can be acheived even with a higher global average and this has happened.

The factor in setting the records are once more stalled high pressure systems.

The Siberian High (also Siberian Anticyclone) is a massive collection of cold or very cold dry air that accumulates on the northeastern part of Eurasian terrain for the cold part of the year, roughly from September till April. Usually, it is centered on Lake Baikal.[1] It reaches its greatest size and strength in the winter, when the air temperature near the center of the high-pressure cell or anticyclone is often lower than −40 °C (−40 °F). The sea-level pressure (atmospheric pressure) is often above 1,040 millibars (31 inHg). The Siberian High is the strongest semi-permanent high in the northern hemisphere and is responsible for both the lowest temperature in the Northern Hemisphere, of −67.8 °C (−90.0 °F) on 15 January 1885 at Verkhoyansk and the highest pressure, 1083.8 mbar (108.38 kPa, 32.01 inHg) at Agata, Krasnoyarsk Krai on 31 December 1968.[2] The Siberian High is responsible both for severe winter cold and attendant dry conditions with little snow and few or no glaciers across Siberia, Mongolia and China. During the summer, the Siberian High is largely replaced by the Asiatic low.

The Siberian High affects the weather patterns in most parts of the Northern Hemisphere: its influence extends as far west as the Po Valley in Italy[3] and as far southeast as Malaysia,[4] where it is a critical component of the northeast monsoon. Occasionally a strong Siberian High can bring unusually cold weather into the tropics as far southeast as the Philippines,[5] or as far east from Russia as Eastern Canada (which happened several times over the course of the 2014 Winter).[6] It may block or reduce the size of low-pressure cells or cyclones and generate dry weather across much of the Asian landscape with the exception of regions such as Hokuriku and the Caspian Sea coast of Iran that receive orographic rainfall from the winds it generates.

Siberian air is generally colder than Arctic air, because unlike Arctic air which forms over the sea ice around the North Pole, Siberian air forms over the cold tundra of Siberia, which does not radiate heat the same way the ice of the Arctic does.[7]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_High

If a low does not sweep in bringing moist warm air and cloud cover...the temperature will keep going down as the there is no incoming radiation to offset the radiation from the planet in that area.

In mid latitudes tho it is night time temps which are setting so many records as the radiation out is absorbed by C02 and ( a portion ) re-radiated downward.
So warmer troposphere and a cooler stratosphere are both AGW footprints.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/its-not-us-advanced.htm
 
Because they are stupid and shut off their nukes. Do you have something regarding climate change science or just showing off your lack of understanding NIMBYs.

Solar is no longer in need of subsidies but it seems coal and gas and oil are....strange that.
 
Dragging and kicking into reality...


Acceptance of science grows

Among the findings, the poll suggests the percentage of Canadians who believe in the scientific fact of climate change continues to edge up — to 63 per cent in 2014 compared to 60 per cent last year. One in 10 remain skeptical about the science.

The survey also suggests Canadians are increasingly willing to shoulder the cost of helping to fight the effects of a changing climate. Support for a B.C.-style carbon tax continues to "inch up," with 56 per cent now strongly or somewhat supporting a tax on carbon emissions.
That support is strongest in Ontario and Atlantic Canada, both at 61 per cent, followed by Quebec at 52 per cent.
Last week, the premiers of Ontario and Quebec agreed to jointly co-operate on climate change, with both supporting an eventual price on carbon.
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cli...adians-fears-for-future-generations-1.2852605

They at least are way ahead of the dolts in Ottawa, even the oil companies want a carbon tax.

Oil sands pollution: Why industry wants the carbon tax ...
business.financialpost.com/.../why-the-oil-sands-industry-wants-the-carb...
Feb 1, 2013 - Why the oil sands industry wants the carbon tax that Stephen Harper hates ... Oil companies operating in Canada such as Exxon Mobil Corp., ...
 
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Green" Germany finds itself slashing renewable subsidies by 25%
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which is exactly what should be done as renewables do not need subsidies any more, nor do fossil fuel companies.
Germany got up to 74% of the power for the entire country one day this year....that percentage will continue to increase.
Germany does not want to be handcuffed by Putin with gas.
Germany is stupid about nuclear.
So the baseload is coal for a while.

That is a strategic decision by a nation that is fully committed to carbon neutral in the future.
Are you?
 
Arnold Martin said:
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This is awkward ... "Green" Germany finds itself slashing renewable subsidies by 25% and are now building a fleet of new coal powered plants to provide energy to 8 million households

http://www.thegwpf.com/germany-desperate-for-more-coal-power-to-keep-lights-on/

Stay warm everybody , and keep the lights on.
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The German government has always been a bit uncertain when it comes to investments, as a common German saying goes, "Germans would prefer to pursue tax breaks rather than sex."

Conservative Iowa Farmers however:

Conservative Iowa farmers find a new cash crop -- renewable energy
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060009596

..."How's the power?" asks McKenna from inside the Jeep.

"It's real good," answers Yoder. "We've got strong sun and wind today. I figure I'm making more than 20,000 watts out there."

The 20 kilowatts, which help form the backbone of the electric cooperative's 216-square-mile distribution grid, are coming from Yoder's farm-based energy systems. They include two 7.2 kW solar arrays mounted on the south-facing slope of a nearby field and a 10 kW wind turbine set atop a steel tower that may be the tallest structure around outside the Frytown grain elevator.

Yoder, whose Mennonite traditions generally eschew many energy-consuming home comforts, takes pride in his farm's energy self-sufficiency and clean energy credentials. But the economics of renewable energy, and particularly solar power, bring the most satisfaction to the tall, 50-year-old farmer.

"I do like renewable energy," he says. "And if I can make it pay, I'll do it."...
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And as Macdoc has stated, the return to coal on the part of the current German administration has nothing to do with problems with alternative energy, but rather due to their il-considered choice to shut down their nuclear industry:

The growing absurdity of German energy policy: Berlin increasingly needs dirty coal to make up for scrapping nuclear
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/01e65008-74a6-11e4-b30b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3KQhyM6SP

...Next week, Ms Merkel’s cabinet will assess how Germany can maintain energy supplies while achieving its climate change targets. Its options are limited. A reversal of the decision to close nuclear plants would help to meet the energy gap with clean sources of electricity – but is politically impossible to sell. Alternatively, Ms Merkel could mothball some coal-fired power stations to meet Germany’s carbon emissions goals – but this would potentially lead to brownouts in German homes.

Many Germans stick to the belief that Energiewende (their very popular program to shift from fossil fuel to alternative energy by 2050 ---Trakar) is an exciting project which, by 2050, will leave their country enjoying the cheapest, greenest and most sustainable energy supplies in the world. But the middle of the century is a long way off. In the short term, Germany’s great clean-up looks likely to result in more pollution and higher energy bills.
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Meanwhile, according to many experts, we can all thank Germany (and China) for the falling prices of solar panels and wind turbines!

Thank Germany for Falling Prices of Solar Panels and Wind Turbines
http://www.businessweek.com/article...its-from-germanys-use-of-wind-and-solar-power

...Germany’s embrace of wind and solar power is a good example. All the world will benefit.

As the Times put it: “By creating huge demand for wind turbines and especially for solar panels, it has helped lure big Chinese manufacturers into the market, and that combination is driving down costs faster than almost anyone thought possible just a few years ago.”...
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Officials defend their development plans as environmentalists win in court again

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/nov/29/sandag-county-lawsuits-climate-change-appeals/
Two lawsuits could force the area’s main planning agency and the county government to significantly revamp their blueprints on such projects. At stake is how tens of billions of dollars should be spent in the next few decades on all manner of infrastructure and services for the region’s swelling population.

Experts on global warming and municipal governance said the outcome of these suits could provide crucial direction for cities and counties across California, if not nationwide.
On the heels of a second round of court victories, environmentalists allege that key local government officials profess to care about climate change but don’t back it up with detailed prescriptions for “smart growth” and other ways of curbing greenhouse-gas emissions. They contend that this pattern continues amid warnings from Gov. Jerry Brown, who has urged local governments to devote more attention and resources to increased levels of carbon dioxide, sea-level rise and the like.
The Sierra Club, the Cleveland National Forest Foundation and the Center for Biological Diversity are among those that punctuated their assertions with two lawsuits — one against the county government and the other against the San Diego Association of Governments, or SANDAG. They prevailed in both cases at the Superior Court level, then again this month before the 4th District Court of Appeal…
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If your local government doesn’t want to protect its citizens and the investments of businesses now and into the future, sue them.
 
macdoc said:
Because they are stupid and shut off their nukes. Do you have something regarding climate change science or just showing off your lack of understanding NIMBYs.

Solar is no longer in need of subsidies but it seems coal and gas and oil are....strange that.
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What does this have to do with me <SNIP> ? ... All I did was report that some Germany energy providers will move back to coal .

As far as Nukes , I agree , if not for the anti-nuke activists in years gone by the world would be using much more Nuclear and less coal.

I saw an interesting interview with a leading physicist who is certain that stored nuclear waste will be successfully recycled in the future ... and it will produce multitudes more energy than the raw product did ... he likened it to storing gold energy in underground bunkers.

Edited by zooterkin: 
Edited for Rule 8. You may only post a Member's personal information if it is both publicly available and is relevant to the ongoing discussion.
 
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Interesting new article shows Antarctic ice may be much thicker than previously believed.

Turns out the ice is very deformed (uneven) ... and ranges from 1.4 meters to 5.5 and sometimes 16 Meters

Using a submersible and doing a multiple grid pattern measurement survey they are finding much thicker ice than drilling rig results showed
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/1...arctic_sea_ice_is_thicker_than_first_thought/

.......

This has had the effect of creating a new group called the ... "Baffled Climate Scientists" ...

This report says .... (Quote) ... Climate scientists have confessed they are baffled – yet again – by another all-time record area of sea covered by ice around the Antarctic coasts.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/1...ientist_antarctic_sea_ice_at_all_time_record/

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Arnold Martin said:
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Interesting new article shows Antarctic ice may be much thicker than previously believed.

Turns out the ice is very deformed (uneven) ... and ranges from 1.4 meters to 5.5 and sometimes 16 Meters

Using a submersible and doing a multiple grid pattern measurement survey they are finding much thicker ice than drilling rig results showed
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/1...arctic_sea_ice_is_thicker_than_first_thought/

.......

This has had the effect of creating a new group called the ... "Baffled Climate Scientists" ...
This report says .... (Quote) ... Climate scientists have confessed they are baffled – yet again – by another all-time record area of sea covered by ice around the Antarctic coasts.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/1...ientist_antarctic_sea_ice_at_all_time_record/

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The articles are about two different things. One is about Antarctic sea ice extent the other is about new measurements of ice depth.
 
Arnold Martin said:
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Interesting new article shows Antarctic ice may be much thicker than previously believed.

Turns out the ice is very deformed (uneven) ... and ranges from 1.4 meters to 5.5 and sometimes 16 Meters

Using a submersible and doing a multiple grid pattern measurement survey they are finding much thicker ice than drilling rig results showed
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/1...arctic_sea_ice_is_thicker_than_first_thought/

.......

This has had the effect of creating a new group called the ... "Baffled Climate Scientists" ...

This report says .... (Quote) ... Climate scientists have confessed they are baffled – yet again – by another all-time record area of sea covered by ice around the Antarctic coasts.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/1...ientist_antarctic_sea_ice_at_all_time_record/

.
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Perhaps, if you are really interested in what climate scientists are actually saying instead of what a sensationalist news reporter feels is a more interesting version of events, you should try reading actual climate science reports like:

http://www.nature.com/news/robot-reveals-surprisingly-thick-antarctic-sea-ice-1.16397

or

http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum/

the bafflement appears to have primarily been the newspaper reporter's.
 
Trakar said:
the bafflement appears to have primarily been the newspaper reporter's.
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Lol, from the Nature presser:

"The results are not entirely surprising to some polar scientists."

And from NASA:

“Its really not surprising to people in the climate field that not every location on the face of Earth is acting as expected – it would be amazing if everything did,” Parkinson said. “The Antarctic sea ice is one of those areas where things have not gone entirely as expected. So it’s natural for scientists to ask, ‘OK, this isn’t what we expected, now how can we explain it?’”
 
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