Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vibio]

You are a fluent Italian speaker and translator and you say "that Knox was not the murderer".

I will use material from this board.

Well, of course you will. I can just imagine. **rolls eyes**

Yes, I did say "Knox was not the murder" but with the following words preceding it (that you omitted): "My own hunch, my own feeling
has always been that ..."

-----------------------------------------------

And BTW:

"At law, an accomplice has the same degree of guilt as the person he or she is assisting, is subject to prosecution for the same crime, and faces the same criminal penalties."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accomplice

 

[Kauffer]

Translation

He does not "explains lack of evidence by saying Knox may have directed the action from another room.".

So, ok. This is an easy one - what does he say, in Italian? Whereas we've got the English version from Graham's interview, simply state the original Italian for the part that was translated beginning, "Theorising...etc". And anything else from the original you think pertinent. Perhaps you will kindly provide your own English translation.

 

[Kauffer]

What was she doing and where?

Well, of course you will. I can just imagine. **rolls eyes**

Yes, I did say "Knox was not the murder" but with the following words preceding it (that you omitted): "My own hunch, my own feeling
has always been that ..."

-----------------------------------------------

And BTW:

"At law, an accomplice has the same degree of guilt as the person he or she is assisting, is subject to prosecution for the same crime, and faces the same criminal penalties."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accomplice

So your hunch, then, expanding it and fleshing it out a bit is what? Was she in the room? What was she doing? What was her intent and why? And - again, what possible reconstruction of the murder can you provide that accounts for the complete lack of physical evidence from her, including any shoe or foot prints in blood in that murder room?

 

[Vibio]

So, ok. This is an easy one - what does he say, in Italian? Whereas we've got the English version from Graham's interview, simply state the original Italian for the part that was translated beginning, "Theorising...etc". And anything else from the original you think pertinent. Perhaps you will kindly provide your own English translation.

(That's just what I have time for.)

Do your own translating. It'll keep you busy.

The "interview" is something like 50 un-numbered pages. Find the word "teoreticamente" and work from there.

Get crackin'.

 

[Samson]

Well, of course you will. I can just imagine. **rolls eyes**

Yes, I did say "Knox was not the murder" but with the following words preceding it (that you omitted): "My own hunch, my own feeling
has always been that ..."

-----------------------------------------------

And BTW:

"At law, an accomplice has the same degree of guilt as the person he or she is assisting, is subject to prosecution for the same crime, and faces the same criminal penalties."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accomplice

Do you therefore believe she restrained Meredith?
Do you think Raffaele, Rudy or both did it?
Do you believe in the two knife theory?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

thanks, but no thanks

Oh... I see. The problem is that I don't understand the term "perp walk"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perp_walk

-----

In the meantime I'm still hoping to see those pics and videos of Amanda's perp walk through the streets of Perugia. The one that "the professor" says "they detoured through the old city as if to show off their prisoners. I once referred to this spectacle as a parade."

Vibio,

I didn't call it a perp walk, nor did I make any claims about pictures or videos. Please try to be accurate and please try to avoid putting words into other people's mouths.

 

[Kauffer]

Bad faith

(That's just what I have time for.)

Do your own translating. It'll keep you busy.

The "interview" is something like 50 un-numbered pages. Find the word "teoreticamente" and work from there.

Get crackin'.

I must have been mistaken. You were writing with such apparent authority on the subject, I took you at your word when you stated that the passage translated from the Italian in "The Sun", was not, in fact, correctly translated. In order for this to be true, you would have to have translated it, and would be able to post your translation without additional work in order to supply the evidence you claim.

 

[Vibio]

So your hunch, then, expanding it and fleshing it out a bit is what? Was she in the room? What was she doing? What was her intent and why?

I can imagine a number of scenarios.

I can even imagine the scenario that Amanda imagines she imagined, in regards to her "involvement in Meredith's death" (her words) : that she was in another room while Kercher was being murdered.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

AP archive links; previous discussion here

Good Afternoon Everyone,

http://www.aparchive.com/OneUp.aspx?st=id&ish=x&rids=931bbefa51aafc5a059f72c4b63e27d8

This link used to have AP footage of the police cars. Maybe someone with better searching skills can find it again. Four years ago I communicated with a reporter who talked with the AP cameraman who took the footage and with Mr. Bertoldi. See this link for the discussion here four years ago that Vibio was unwilling to look up herself.
EDT
I went to the AParchive site and searched on "Amanda Knox" and limited the search to November of 2007. I was able to locate the footage showing the departure of the three suspects, but I don't seem to have a good way to provide a direct link. Story No.: 767730 "DV UK STUDENT KILLED" Kermit and Odeed said a great deal of foolishness about this story at the time, and the footage contradicted them.

 

[Vibio]

Vibio,

I didn't call it a perp walk, nor did I make any claims about pictures or videos. Please try to be accurate and please try to avoid putting words into other people's mouths.

Desert Fox called it a perp walk.

But you say "they detoured through the old city as if to show off their prisoners. I once referred to this spectacle as a parade."

So this spectacle of Knox being driven (?) through the city...being shown off...this spectacle that you once referred to as a parade... no pics?

 

[Kauffer]

Imagination

I can imagine a number of scenarios.

I can even imagine the scenario that Amanda imagines she imagined, in regards to her "involvement in Meredith's death" (her words) : that she was in another room while Kercher was being murdered.

But, presumably not by Lumumba. I try not to imagine in miscarriage of justice cases. I try to find the real evidence. When I have it, it sticks like glue. It's all we have to rely on. Nencini on the other hand imagines a confrontation with Ms Kercher over missing rent money. His imagination is fueled by one of Guede's stories - that would be the one that Nencini himself rejects - the one where Guede is at the cottage alone with Ms Kercher, notices her money missing and blames Ms Knox.

 

[Samson]

Desert Fox called it a perp walk.

But you say "they detoured through the old city as if to show off their prisoners. I once referred to this spectacle as a parade."

So this spectacle of Knox being driven (?) through the city...being shown off...this spectacle that you once referred to as a parade... no pics?

It is far from trivial if the most direct route to jail was not taken.
Two conclusions can be made
1. They are very sure they have the culprits, so believe a trial will be a formality.
2. They will appear ridiculous if they turn out to be wrong, and inevitably resist appearing this way by searching high and low for incriminating evidence.

There was also talk of horns blaring. Is this additional to or instead of sirens in Italy?

 

[Kauffer]

The parade

Good Afternoon,

http://www.aparchive.com/OneUp.aspx?st=id&ish=x&rids=931bbefa51aafc5a059f72c4b63e27d8

This link used to have AP footage of the police cars. Maybe someone with better searching skills can find it again. Four years ago I communicated with a reporter who talked with the AP cameraman who took the footage.

There is certainly footage of the police convoy - the parade you mention - in one of the documentaries on the case. Blaring sirens - an uncomfortable and unnecessary celebratory din.

 

[acbytesla]

Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

Well, we agree on this. What was she doing at the time? Tell us how she was involved in the murder. Tell us how the evidence, supports your thoughts. That is only reasonable.

It's one thing to say you have some hunch that Amanda was involved in the murder of her roommate, it is another to use the evidence to prove it. Something I believe neither Massei, Nencini, Machiavelli or any guilter has actually accomplished.

The theory that Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick were involved together in this murder has more proof that Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy were involved together.
At least with Patrick, one could prove that there was some real kind of relationship between the three. Or some communication that night.

For me, this is where the conspiracy between these three begins and ends. There is no proof of anything but an extremely brief interaction between Rudy and Amanda and absolutely none between Rudy and Raffaele. Now it has been argued that Amanda knew Rudy better than she lets on, but that is just speculation with nothing to back it up.

The problem Vibio, is that you or anyone arguing that a defendant is guilty and should be in prison is that you/they have a responsibility to argue logically with the evidence your reasoning. Otherwise you are no better than a lynch mob.

I would suggest that you should either take on the challenge of making a logical argument complete with the evidence or say "while I think Amanda may have been involved, I have no real proof".

 

[Vibio]

In order for this to be true, you would have to have translated it, and would be able to post your translation without additional work in order to supply the evidence you claim.

Um... "would have to have translated it"? and "would be able to post your translation"?

I speak Italian. I'm Italian. I am writing from Italy. I read the interview in the Italian language. I didn't "do" a translation, just as you don't "do" a translation when you read in your language.

Mignini does not "explain lack of evidence by saying Knox may have directed the action from another room", he does not say that he believes Knox was in another room at the time of the murder.

 

[Kauffer]

Simplicity

Um... "would have to have translated it"? and "would be able to post your translation"?

I speak Italian. I'm Italian. I am writing from Italy. I read the interview in the Italian language. I didn't "do" a translation, just as you don't "do" a translation when you read in your language.

Mignini does not "explain lack of evidence by saying Knox may have directed the action from another room", he does not say that he believes Knox was in another room at the time of the murder.

This is like pulling teeth. Was the passage, the quotation attributed to Mignini, correctly translated from the Italian? Yes or no?

 

[Bill Williams]

But, presumably not by Lumumba. I try not to imagine in miscarriage of justice cases. I try to find the real evidence. When I have it, it sticks like glue. It's all we have to rely on. Nencini on the other hand imagines a confrontation with Ms Kercher over missing rent money. His imagination is fueled by one of Guede's stories - that would be the one that Nencini himself rejects - the one where Guede is at the cottage alone with Ms Kercher, notices her money missing and blames Ms Knox.

It is really bizarre that Nencini latches on to, "it was a dispute over rent money," motive. It is bizarre because, as you say, the sole source for this is Rudy Guede, the guy whose fingerprints were found on Meredith's purse.

Why did Nencini not just stick with Prosecutor Crini's theory, that it was a dispute over pooh in the other toilet? What was wrong with Judge Massei who said that the motive, really, was all Rudy's, that Rudy needed no urging to be the sole initiator of the crime, one which (acc. to Meassei) Raffaele and Amanda made a last second "choice for evil" to support Rudy over their friend?

And what happened to the sex-game gone wrong? Why'd Nencini in carrying out the directives of the ISC to convict.... why'd he have to get creative on that: the motive?

Does he not know that Rudy's story also had it being Meredith who'd let him in and that they'd had consensual sex?

The whole thing is bizarre.

 

[Vibio]

It is far from trivial if the most direct route to jail was not taken.
Two conclusions can be made
1. They are very sure they have the culprits, so believe a trial will be a formality.

Perp walks or rides or whatever are always against someone who has not yet been convicted of a crime... not just against special snowflake Amanda Knox.

And if the idea was to put Knox on display she would have been walked... as the US justice system is so fond of doing....

http://nypost.com/2011/05/22/innocent-until-perp-walked/

 

[Desert Fox]

Vibio,

I didn't call it a perp walk, nor did I make any claims about pictures or videos. Please try to be accurate and please try to avoid putting words into other people's mouths.

I used the term "Perp Walk" as more or less a throwaway term. I don't know any simple word to use with the media circus when a defendant in named and displayed in whatever method.

I don't think anybody can argue that there was not a media circus with regards to this case. I would have likely defended Amanda and Raff in any case however because I defended the Norfolk Four and they were only minor celebrities.

 

[carbonjam72]

Well, of course you will. I can just imagine. **rolls eyes**

Yes, I did say "Knox was not the murder" but with the following words preceding it (that you omitted): "My own hunch, my own feeling
has always been that ..."

-----------------------------------------------

And BTW:

"At law, an accomplice has the same degree of guilt as the person he or she is assisting, is subject to prosecution for the same crime, and faces the same criminal penalties."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accomplice

Originally Posted by Vibio
Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

Originally Posted by Vibio
I can imagine a number of scenarios. can even imagine the scenario that Amanda imagines she imagined, in regards to her "involvement in Meredith's death" (her words) : that she was in another room while Kercher was being murdered.

Ok, this is actually very helpful. Wondering if you could answer a few questions.

1. Is your belief that Amanda and Raf are guilty of murder, in the sense of being either direct participants or even merely non-participating accomplices, regardless of where they were physically at the time of the assault, is your belief they are guilty of murder based on a hunch too, is is your belief in their guilt based on evidence?

2. Do you believe people can be properly convicted based on a judge's hunch, or does a conviction require evidence?

3. Are you aware of any evidence that in your view proves that Amanda and Raf ever left Raf's apartment that night (Nov 1, 2007)?

4. Can you imagine a scenario where Amanda and Raf never left Raf's apartment that night, however unlikely you may think it is? Is it at least possible?
(I know I saw the images of Amanda, Patrick and Raf being taken through the city with the lights flashing and horns blaring, it was like a carnival. Pretty sure I saw it in a doc, but it might take some effort to find.)