Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vibio]

Oh and by the way, the journalists you write about were with the now defunct "news of the world".

A reporter working for The Sun was arrested and taken to a south-west London police station on 4 November 2011.

In January 2012, two current and two former employees were arrested.

As of 18 January 2013, 22 Sun journalists had been arrested, including their crime reporter Anthony France.

On 28 January 2012, police arrested four current and former staff members of The Sun,as part of a probe in which journalists paid police officers for information...

The Sun staffers arrested were crime editor Mike Sullivan, head of news Chris Pharo, former deputy editor Fergus Shanahan, and former managing editor Graham Dudman, who since became a columnist and media writer.

On 11 February 2012, five senior journalists at The Sun were arrested, including the deputy editor, as part of Operation Elveden (the investigation into payments to UK public servants).


You were saying?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_(United_Kingdom)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Theoretically

Kauffer... I read the interview. I speak fluent Italian: no where does he says he believes she was anywhere other than the murder room.

Vibio,

Thanks for the admission that Mignini was just blowing smoke when he said, "Theoretically..." That he also wished to invoke police incompetence to explain the lack of Amanda's traces in Meredith's room is also remarkable. It shows that he thinks the lack needs to be explained, for one thing.

 

[Kauffer]

Journalists

A reporter working for The Sun was arrested and taken to a south-west London police station on 4 November 2011.

In January 2012, two current and two former employees were arrested.

As of 18 January 2013, 22 Sun journalists had been arrested, including their crime reporter Anthony France.

On 28 January 2012, police arrested four current and former staff members of The Sun,as part of a probe in which journalists paid police officers for information...

The Sun staffers arrested were crime editor Mike Sullivan, head of news Chris Pharo, former deputy editor Fergus Shanahan, and former managing editor Graham Dudman, who since became a columnist and media writer.

On 11 February 2012, five senior journalists at The Sun were arrested, including the deputy editor, as part of Operation Elveden (the investigation into payments to UK public servants).


You were saying?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_(United_Kingdom)

Actually there's no cite for the numbers. Some of those arrested were not journalists, some were former employees and some shared duties across different titles. This isn't a huge issue - Sun or News of the World - it's the same Murdoch group. All the arrests followed from an investigation into the News of the World's activities. Your point presumably was to throw manure at Bob Graham on the back of these arrests. There is no connection.

 

[Vibio]

Vibio,

Thanks for the admission that Mignini was just blowing smoke when he said, "Theoretically..." That he also wished to invoke police incompetence to explain the lack of Amanda's traces in Meredith's room is also remarkable. It shows that he thinks the lack needs to be explained, for one thing.

This is what "the professor" does:

I made no such admission, I do not believe Mignini was "blowing smoke" (i.e.: "to say things that are not true in order to make yourself or something you are involved with seem better than it is".) when he said what he did.

He also freely admits his own mistakes in the investigation and what he would have done differently.

 

[Vibio]

Actually there's no cite for the numbers. Some of those arrested were not journalists, some were former employees and some shared duties across different titles. This isn't a huge issue - Sun or News of the World - it's the same Murdoch group. All the arrests followed from an investigation into the News of the World's activities. Your point presumably was to throw manure at Bob Graham on the back of these arrests. There is no connection.

No matter how you want to twist it... all of the people listed journalists, editors...were working for the Sun when arrested or were former employees of the tabloid.

And 22 have so far been arrested.... but who cares anyway? The Sun's reputation precedes it.

Your point presumably was to throw manure at Bob Graham on the back if these arrests.

Enough manure has been dished out by the British Tabloid "The Sun" and it's reporters.

But even so... let me repeat: nowhere in the interview does Mignini say he believes Knox was not in the murder room at the time of the murder.


Did you read the interview?

 

[Kauffer]

No matter how you want to twist it... all of the people listed journalists, editors...were working for the Sun when arrested or were former employees of the tabloid.

And 22 have so far been arrested.... but who cares anyway? The Sun's reputation precedes it.



Enough manure has been dished out by the British Tabloid "The Sun" and it's reporters.

But even so... let me repeat: nowhere in the interview does Mignini say he believes Knox was not in the murder room at the time of the murder.


Did you read the interview?

I read it. What Mignini apparently said is contained within this - from the same source I quoted :

"Because the prosecutor, after nearly four years, admits that no trace of alleged murderer Amanda Knox was found at the crime scene. “Amanda might theoretically have instigated the murder while even staying in the other room,” Mignini told Graham on May 21 in a long special feature about the Perugia murder.

A crucial quotation, because it contradicts the substance of the indictment, which alleged that Amanda had a dual active role: masterminding the orgy that led to the murder and also holding Meredith firmly by the arm while Rudy and Raffaele slit her throat."

So, confronted by Graham pressing him on the fact there is no evidence of his defendant in Ms Kercher's room, he theorises that she was elsewhere at the apartment and never in the room. Graham's got him to realise with his spontaneous reaction that Ms Knox could not have been in Ms Kercher's room because of the lack of evidence.

If you have something in Italian that contradicts this, I'll read it.

But do please understand that Bob Graham has nothing to do with the Operation Elveden arrests.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Which is it?

This is what "the professor" does <SNIP>

I made no such admission nor do I believe Mignini was "blowing smoke" (i.e.: "to say things that are not true in order to make yourself or something you are involved with seem better than it is".

He also freely admits his own mistakes in the investigation and what he would have done differently.

Vibio,

Are you lying again, or is it just a matter of your poor reading comprehension that causes you to write such noxious nonsense? To blow smoke means "(also blow smoke up someone's ass or blow heat) To mislead; confuse; deceive : Anybody who tells you different's just blowing smoke up your *** (1940s+)..."

For Mignini to say that Amanda could theoretically have been directing Rudy and Raffaele to commit the crime is deflection when he did not present that scenario and does not believe it. You and Machiavelli are being equally as disingenuous. Why am I not surprised?

 

[Vibio]

From the Cambridge idioms dictionary:

"blow smoke (American): to say things that are not true in order to make yourself or something you are involved with seem better than it is"

Furthermore: I do not at all agree with you that what Mignini was saying was a deliberate deflection "when he did not present that scenario and does not believe it." It was just an aside of no consequence in an interview of dubious origins from a British Tabloid.

BTW: Note that this "interview" that the Knoxians give so much weight to, was not picked up or reported on by any important print newspaper. I wonder why?


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http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/blow+smoke

 

[Kauffer]

Back to...the lack of evidence in the room

From the Cambridge idioms dictionary:

"blow smoke (American): to say things that are not true in order to make yourself or something you are involved with seem better than it is"

Furthermore: I do not at all agree with you that what Mignini was saying was a deliberate deflection "when he did not present that scenario and does not believe it." It was just an aside of no consequence in an interview of dubious origins from a British Tabloid.

BTW: Note that this "interview" that the Knoxians give so much weight to, was not picked up or reported on by any important print newspaper. I wonder why?


---

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/blow+smoke

At some point, Vibio, you are going to have to confront the central thesis all the real skeptics advance - that it is impossible for two additional assailants to be tacked on to the murder when there is, in Ms Kercher's room, no physical evidence of them and when there is prolific evidence of one assailant only.

How on earth can you reconstruct a brutal stabbing murder with Ms Knox as the stabbing murderer when there is no trace of her in the room and no blood or other evidence on her clothes?

Tell me a story; convince me. I'm prepared to swap sides. Tell me how it can be done.

 

[sept79]

.
.
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How on earth can you reconstruct a brutal stabbing murder with Ms Knox as the stabbing murderer when there is no trace of her in the room and no blood or other evidence on her clothes?
Tell me a story; convince me. I'm prepared to swap sides. Tell me how it can be done.

I can hardly wait for vibio's scenario. I'm guessing levitation . . .

 

[Vibio]

Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

 

[Diocletus]

Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

Wow. Do you have any "hunches" about other stuff? Like whether the sun will come up tomorrow?

 

[Kauffer]

Where was Amanda?

Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

Good - But I can be a terrible cynic. So let me guess - you think she was in the room playing some kind of role. Is that right?

 

[Bill Williams]

At some point, Vibio, you are going to have to confront the central thesis all the real skeptics advance - that it is impossible for two additional assailants to be tacked on to the murder when there is, in Ms Kercher's room, no physical evidence of them and when there is prolific evidence of one assailant only.

How on earth can you reconstruct a brutal stabbing murder with Ms Knox as the stabbing murderer when there is no trace of her in the room and no blood or other evidence on her clothes?
Tell me a story; convince me. I'm prepared to swap sides. Tell me how it can be done.

Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

I, for one, would like to hear more about this. It sounds like you accept some tenets of innocentisti criticism about the investigation/prosecution, but obviously not all.

I'm with Kauffer, though. I am fully willing (and able) to be convinced that at some level Mignini/Comodi/Massei, or Crini/Nencini are right.

What do you need from the innocentisti here to feel comfortable expanding on this? I mean, things can get pretty "ad hominem" fairly quickly.

Whereas I feel I am fundamentally not "confirmation biased", it is obvious that I am fairly well entrenched in the innocentisti position. There are basic things that will be rough to let go of - things like how on earth Amanda and/or Raffaele can be seen meaningfully in the murder room, and why anything found outside the murder room is not simply a byproduct of normal day-to-day living of the place Knox lived in for weeks.

You may see that as being confirmation biased - nothing much I can do about that, though.

Fundamentally, I do not understand the Pro-guilt PR position. It makes no sense, and seems to be resistant to being put onto a timeline which accounts for the evidence.

It also requires the reversal of the burden of proof - as witnessed by Machiavelli's continual evaluation of evidence with the view that items "can be" associated with guilt, therefore it is up to innocentisti to prove that they are not indicators of guilt.

I don't want to type too much here - you can probably guess the hurdles you face in convincing someone like me. I at least want to be honest about it.

But every once in a while someone from the pro-guilt side makes what is to me a startling admission.... "My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer," and it would be nice, not to mention simply informative, to hear more.

 

[Bill Williams]

This is what "the professor" does and why frauds should be avoided:

I made no such admission nor do I believe Mignini was "blowing smoke" (i.e.: "to say things that are not true in order to make yourself or something you are involved with seem better than it is".

He also freely admits his own mistakes in the investigation and what he would have done differently.

Vibio,

Are you lying again, or is it just a matter of your poor reading comprehension that causes you to write such noxious nonsense? To blow smoke means "(also blow smoke up someone's ass or blow heat) To mislead; confuse; deceive : Anybody who tells you different's just blowing smoke up your *** (1940s+)..."

For Mignini to say that Amanda could theoretically have been directing Rudy and Raffaele to commit the crime is deflection when he did not present that scenario and does not believe it. You and Machiavelli are being equally as disingenuous. Why am I not surprised?

The only admission from Mignini of a mistake I can remember off hand, is his admission that it was a mistake to not allow the body temperature to be taken at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Desert Fox]

So there was this perp walk (or was it in police cars ?)...through the streets of Perugia... sort of a parade. I imagine there must be plenty of photos and videos of this event.

Perugians with their cellphones snapping, journalists out there with a great photo-op, the TV news programs filming away.

People lining the sidewalks, standing in doorways, looking down from windows up above the spectacle.

Well, lets see those photos and videos.

Thanks in advance.

You seem to try to understand things on purpose. . . .The "Perp Walk" is a figure of speech and can include such things as just flashing the pictures of the suspects on TV and saying "We got them."

 

[Desert Fox]

Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

I am assuming that you support her being exonerated then?

 

[Samson]

Me? My own hunch, my own feeling has always been that Knox was not the murderer.

Vibio,
I agree with you.
I like the idea that this discussion board is neutral, and that all arguments are considered equal. When I mention occasionally to people this case is interesting because there is unequivocal proof of innocence, I am met with scepticism that so many people could be so wrong for so long.

Now we have general agreement here.

Lead prosecutor Mignini explains lack of evidence by saying Knox may have directed the action from another room.
Principal guilt advocate Machiavelli says
"You don't need to present on the place of a murder in order to be guilty."
You are a fluent Italian speaker and translator and you say "that Knox was not the murderer".
Yet the most recent instance judge Nenci finds as judicial fact that Amanda made the killing blow.

You are all making this job of explaining easier, thank you.

I will use material from this board.

 

[Vibio]

You seem to try to understand things on purpose. . . .The "Perp Walk" is a figure of speech and can include such things as just flashing the pictures of the suspects on TV and saying "We got them."

Oh... I see. The problem is that I don't understand the term "perp walk"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perp_walk

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In the meantime I'm still hoping to see those pics and videos of Amanda's perp walk through the streets of Perugia. The one that "the professor" says "they detoured through the old city as if to show off their prisoners. I once referred to this spectacle as a parade."

Will someone please shows the pics...there must be lots of them. The videos?

Pretty please?

 

[Vibio]

Lead prosecutor Mignini explains lack of evidence by saying Knox may have directed the action from another room.

He does not "explains lack of evidence by saying Knox may have directed the action from another room.".