[Pseudo] Intellectual Racism

[The Atheist]

Bill is one of those people who believes the US is a meritocracy and that everyone can just put a dollar in the bank for every dollar they make (this is not true). He won't admit that those who are born poor are very likely to stay poor.

Exactly.

It's racist alright.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty transparent.

I have to admit, I couldn't have done better than that if I'd been trolling a sock-puppet.

 

[The Atheist]

The Atheist. Are you a minority yourself? That is what I got from your other thread.

and, To Roger Ramjets:

Are you Maori?

Interesting focus you have on what group person A belongs to.

Am I a minority? Of what?

 

[Caper]

Interesting focus you have on what group person A belongs to.

Am I a minority? Of what?

I am not trying to focus on that at all. It's strictly out of my own curiosity. I'd find it kind of neat if I was debating with an actual Maori.

 

[Dissolution]

Alright, just to humor the OP, let's take a look at US murder statistics for 2011 by the race of the offender:

White: 4,729
Black: 5,486
Other: 256
Unknown: 4077

So you have blacks, who make up about 13% of the population, committing (at least) 37.7% of the crimes. This is assuming that blacks committed none of the murders where the race of the offender is unknown.

I chose murder because it is certainly the one crime that police pursue with reasonably equal vigor without regard to race.

Do you really want to blame that on white racists? And consider that blacks mostly kill other blacks (as whites kill mostly other whites), so if the intent is to get back at white racism they're doing an awfully poor job of it.

I'd be interested to see how income factors into this equation.
This never seems to be included in the statistics though, unfortunately.

 

[bit_pattern]

I'd find it kind of neat if I was debating with an actual Maori.

Lol, really? You should hang out at a bar in Brisbane. I'm sure you'd get the chance soon enough!

 

[Caper]

Lol, really? You should hang out at a bar in Brisbane. I'm sure you'd get the chance soon enough!

Would it be fun? Are they nice people?

 

[Brainster]

Did you miss the bit about "their forebears"?

Call me on making assumptions, but I'm prepared to bet that those white racists of today are the descendants of the past racists who owned slaves, denied blacks the vote, etc ad nauseum.

Those are the people behind the history which has resulted in the negative outcomes.

Their descendants are now enabling the continuation of racism by misusing correlation and causation.

Okay, so white racists are responsible for blacks killing blacks by what?

 

[bit_pattern]

Would it be fun? Are they nice people?

Is any group of people "nice"? They're people. They exist on a broad spectrum of personality traits

 

[ThunderChunky]

It's racist alright. You can tell that by his frequent use of a racial label. His basic argument is that Maoris have poor health not due to European influence, but simply because they are ignorant and 'lack willpower'. IOW they are somehow inherently inferior to Whites.

But plenty of other kiwis also patronize those crap fast food outlets. To suggest that only Maoris have health issues due to inherent weakness while ignoring the fact that many 'Whites' have a similar problem is clearly racist.

But our racist friend goes even further than that, suggesting that Maoris are actually intent on hurting themselves despite the generous 'help' Europeans supposedly gave them...

Getting them hooked on starchy foods was a 'great gift'? I guess that makes up for introducing them to booze and tobacco, infecting them with fatal diseases and stealing their land - not!

And they are still doing it. It's all very well to say that just throwing money at Maoris won't change their eating habits, but we are all getting mixed messages about what we should eat. Nutritionists tell us that we should avoid 'junk' food, but everywhere else we are constantly being goaded to consume, consume, consume! The problem is not race based but cultural, and right now it is American culture that is doing the damage.

Beat that strawman!! Get him! Get him!

 

[pharphis]

Bill is one of those people who believes the US is a meritocracy and that everyone can just put a dollar in the bank for every dollar they make (this is not true). He won't admit that those who are born poor are very likely to stay poor.

ha, rereading this I realized that I made a mistake. I meant to say a dime for every dollar BUT this typo is actually more realistic when talking about the people who simply invest and make money off of their money

 

[turingtest]

Alright, just to humor the OP, let's take a look at US murder statistics for 2011 by the race of the offender:

White: 4,729
Black: 5,486
Other: 256
Unknown: 4077

So you have blacks, who make up about 13% of the population, committing (at least) 37.7% of the crimes. This is assuming that blacks committed none of the murders where the race of the offender is unknown.

I chose murder because it is certainly the one crime that police pursue with reasonably equal vigor without regard to race.

Do you really want to blame that on white racists? And consider that blacks mostly kill other blacks (as whites kill mostly other whites), so if the intent is to get back at white racism they're doing an awfully poor job of it.

What do you want to blame these numbers on? Do you think this says something about black people? Does this mean, to you, that they are x-number-of-times more likely to be murderers than white people?

 

[Ammonitida]

I'd be interested to see how income factors into this equation.
This never seems to be included in the statistics though, unfortunately.

Age demographic and population density factors in as well. Blacks are a younger population and are more likely to live in urban environments, which have higher population density. Both factors are associated with increased rates of crime.

 

[Ammonitida]

What do you want to blame these numbers on? Do you think this says something about black people? Does this mean, to you, that they are x-number-of-times more likely to be murderers than white people?

Age, poverty, (edit: and job discrimination in some places, like New York City for example), and population density. Not genetics.

But it amuses me that so many self-proclaimed "anti-racist" types love to counter such statistics with equally suspicious claims about whites being greatly disproportionately represented among US "serial killers" "mass shooters", and "child rapists". You see it all the time on supposedly progressive blogs like "Gawker" and "dailykos". Even when presented with evidence to the contrary, they refuse to let go of these beliefs, and will start going on about racist conspiracies trying to cover up these "facts". I've seen it so many times. Even if these claims were "facts", what is the reason? Because white people are "genetically" more evil or something?

 

[The Atheist]

Beat that strawman!! Get him! Get him!

Is it still a strawman if he's talking about an actual person who really did say those things?

I must've missed that update.

(The quotes he attributed are actual quotes, not imaginary positions)

 

[The Atheist]

I am not trying to focus on that at all. It's strictly out of my own curiosity. I'd find it kind of neat if I was debating with an actual Maori.

Would it be fun? Are they nice people?

What a strange question - are they nice people?

Are some people nicer than others? How about those Scandinavians, eh? They rate nowhere for violence, are really nice, clean, well-educated people. They have beautiful countries, friendly people...

and Anders Breivik.

As with every other person on the planet, each individual is different. The only generic thing I can really throw you for Maori is respect. They respect their culture, which always appeals to me as a good trait since I come from a culture whose entire history is based on beating the living crap out of every other species in the universe.

Kind of like the Krikkiters, in a stunning second reference to H2G2 this morning!

I am not personally a Maori, and in an interesting point, along with other Polynesian and south-west Pacific people, it's about the only blood I can almost guarantee I don't have.

 

[Lithrael]

Even if these claims were "facts", what is the reason? Because white people are "genetically" more evil or something?

It does sound like simple defensiveness and a schoolyard-level 'well you are even WORSE' tactic. I am under the impression that they're largely correct, though, and wouldn't mind a link to a discussion of the statistics. As for a reason, that might be what some of the people making the claim are implying but I would guess it's socioeconomic, once you've controlled for raw population numbers. For example, you can't hide 10 bodies under your house if you don't have a house. You might not be as bizarrely angry about your life not going well if you don't have the impression that people like you are supposed to be able to make it in your town. (That is, for many people, if they feel systematically oppressed, then at least failure is a shared experience. But if they feel like they are the only one getting the raw deal then they feel the world has singled them out for poor treatment and feel alienated and angry.)

I'm just flapping my jaws on this one though so please don't take these thoughts too seriously.

 

[bpesta22]

Me neither, but calling them a violent race is.



No argument there.

To me the issue is clear-cut. Children are not born religious, or criminals, so if one group is failing, they would usually be considered the victims.

Blaming the victim is the heartbeat of intellectual racism because it ignores the obvious point that something causes the problem and it probably isn't genetic.

I'd just say that-- within races-- the variance in religiosity and criminality is non-trivially due to genes.

 

[The Atheist]

Okay, so white racists are responsible for blacks killing blacks by what?

Do you really want to keep on this track?

Do you disbelieve that genocide, racism, murder, rape and colonialisation of black and brown people by white men had no lasting effect on the conquered people?

Do you disbelieve that every single one of your forebears being uprooted from their home and enslaved, then many of whom were tortured, raped or maimed by white owners for over ten generations might not leave some scars that persist as festering sores for a century or more?

You seem to want to deny that white treatment of other people over a thousand years has left no lasting issues, so please offer an alternative, because the numbers are a disgrace.

But not just for black people.

You think black on black crime is caused by ................

(please fill in the blanks)

A
But it amuses me that so many self-proclaimed "anti-racist" types love to counter such statistics with equally suspicious claims about whites being greatly disproportionately represented among US "serial killers" "mass shooters", and "child rapists".

Are you sure that isn't being done in a satirical way?

I do use it myself, strictly as parody, to prove that white men are crooks.

We've recently had a long list of white bankers and financiers jailed for fraud. Every single one of them was white. Bernie Madoff? (Oh god, a Jew, even worse!) Not one brown face among the whole lot.

The point is to show that statistics are easy to use dishonestly.

 

[jimbob]

To me, this is possibly the worst kind of all, as it disguises itself under a veneer of respectability by quoting statistics.

An example would be black Americans incarceration and violence rates, using the criminal data to come to a conclusion that black Americans are a bad people who will not drag themselves out of the ghetto.
At least the Stormfront-style racist is quite open - he just wants nothing to do with people who are not white and considers them second-class, barely human animals. "Anthropoid" is the pejorative of choice of many, indicating that people of non-white colour are not quite human.

Good targets for intellectual racists include Native Americans, Hispanic and black Americans, New Zealand Maori and Australian Aboriginals.

There is no doubt each of those groups is hugely over-represented in negative criminal, health and social outcomes, yet the intellectual racist will never ask why that should be, merely content with sweeping those groups under the mat as "bad/weak/lazy people".
I believe there are a myriad of reasons why those people have such negative life outcomes, and much of it is the fault of those white racists and their forebears. Having destroyed their cultures through violence and introduced disease, white people left those groups to pick up their own pieces. And they have largely failed.

Germany and Japan were both given massive assistance after WWII which enabled them to recover, but when have we ever invested more than lip service in trying to raise the bar of the people oppressed for centuries in many cases?

Continuing the bigotry by quoting statistics without searching for the reasons behind the problem is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Alright, just to humor the OP, let's take a look at US murder statistics for 2011 by the race of the offender:

White: 4,729
Black: 5,486
Other: 256
Unknown: 4077

So you have blacks, who make up about 13% of the population, committing (at least) 37.7% of the crimes. This is assuming that blacks committed none of the murders where the race of the offender is unknown.
I chose murder because it is certainly the one crime that police pursue with reasonably equal vigor without regard to race.

Do you really want to blame that on white racists? And consider that blacks mostly kill other blacks (as whites kill mostly other whites), so if the intent is to get back at white racism they're doing an awfully poor job of it.

The highlighted bits:

Missing the point of the OP entirely. Possibly making the point of the OP.

 

[Caper]

What a strange question - are they nice people?

Are some people nicer than others?

Of course they are.

How about those Scandinavians, eh? They rate nowhere for violence, are really nice, clean, well-educated people. They have beautiful countries, friendly people...
and Anders Breivik.

Was there supposed to be a point there?

As with every other person on the planet, each individual is different. The only generic thing I can really throw you for Maori is respect. They respect their culture, which always appeals to me as a good trait since I come from a culture whose entire history is based on beating the living crap out of every other species in the universe.

There you go.. they are respectful.

I come from a culture whose entire history is based on beating the living crap out of every other species in the universe.

That's a pretty impressive record.

I am not personally a Maori, and in an interesting point, along with other Polynesian and south-west Pacific people, it's about the only blood I can almost guarantee I don't have.

Ok. That's all I was wondering.