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Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Man oh man... the squirming and tortured explanations from the Cult of the Amandites....

Apologies, Vibio, my browser did not load your response to the meat of the issue at hand, so here it is again (below)....

It's just so that this thread doesn't end with four more ad hominems with no attempt at all to deal with something other than more inflated rhetoric ("tortured", "squirming", "cult", "Amandaites"....)

Otherwise lurkers to this thread might believe that all the pro-guilt lobby has to offer is inflated rhetoric.

Man oh man. If it were not for the pro-guilt lobby and their exaggerations....

It was a diary entry, not meant for anyone except for him. The man was being told that Meredith's DNA on the knife was iron clad.

Can we get copies of your diaries to see how you react to information you are told, where you have no idea the truth of the issue?

But there's no factoid from the pro-guilt lobby that is immune from exaggeration:

- detailed
- well thought-out
- humdinger
- lie​

It's just possible that these "excesses of rhetoric" are meant to cover that there really is not much evidence at all otherwise.
 
CoulsdonUK,

Your comment neatly sums up your own contributions to this thread, and your comment earlier today smacks of chutzpah: "You folks are all wasting your time. BTW please fill me in on anything that I should know about."

I have looked around but hadn’t found anything relating to the slander application and I know that you and others are close to the Knox family and as such may have more insight; whether you are wasting your time or not is not for me to decide or comment on.

Are you so concerned with the Kerchers' grief that the suffering of two innocent people means nothing to you?

At first they kept Raf in the case to get to Amanda. Now they're keeping Amanda in the case to get to Raf's inheritance.

It's a fine bunch of criminals they have in Italy, and its shocking the Kerchers would be unable to muster the decency to refrain from stealing money from innocent families.

Yes my support remains with the Kercher family and I still do not know any members of Meredith’s family. I am curious as to what the outcome will be of the 3rd level trial next spring and the status of the ECHR slander application.
 
I have looked around but hadn’t found anything relating to the slander application and I know that you and others are close to the Knox family and as such may have more insight; whether you are wasting your time or not is not for me to decide or comment on.



Yes my support remains with the Kercher family and I still do not know any members of Meredith’s family. I am curious as to what the outcome will be of the 3rd level trial next spring and the status of the ECHR slander application.

Here is some information that you may find helpful in understanding the future. I've bolded or highlighted some points I consider among the more important. From:

http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/execution/presentation/about_EN.asp

Execution of Judgments of the European Court of Human Rights

The Contracting parties undertake to abide by the final judgments of the European Court of Human Rights ("the Court") in the cases to which they are parties (Article 46, paragraph 1). The Convention entrusts the Committee of Ministers with the supervision of Court judgments (Article 46, paragraph 2), as well as the terms of the friendly settlements (see notably Article 39, paragraph 4, as amended following the entry into force of Protocol No. 14, on 1st June 2010).

Most judgments only declare the violations established, leaving to the States, under the supervision of the Committee of Ministers, to define the required execution measures. These measures depend on the circumstances of each case. In a certain number of recent judgments, in particular those concerned by the pilot judgment procedure, the Court has, however, started to make certain recommendations with respect to execution.

When exercising its supervisory function, the Committee of Ministers is assisted by the Department for the Execution of Judgments of the Court (established within the Directorate General of Human Rights and Legal Affairs).

The obligation to abide by the judgments encompasses two main elements. As far as the applicant’s individual situation is concerned, the main obligation is to ensure that measures are taken which achieve, as far as possible, restitutio in integrum for the applicant. Such measures include notably the effective payment of the just satisfaction allocated by the Court (including the payment of default interests in case of belated payment). When the consequences of a violation cannot be adequately erased by the just satisfaction awarded, the Committee of Ministers makes sure that the domestic authorities take the other specific individual measures in favour of the applicant which may be required. Such measures can, for example, consist in the granting of a residence permit, the reopening of a judicial procedure and/or the erasure of a conviction from the criminal records.
On a more general level, the obligation also includes the prevention of violations similar to those found by the Court. General measures which may be necessary include notably constitutional changes or legislative amendments, changes in the case-law of the national courts, as well as practical measures, such as the recruitment of judges or refurbishing obsolete prison facilities. The efficiency of domestic remedies is an important element of general measures and States are notably recommended by the Committee of Ministers to review, following Court judgments which point to structural or general deficiencies in national law or practice, the effectiveness of the existing remedies and, where necessary, set up effective ones, in order to avoid repetitive cases being brought before the Court.

In view of the direct effect frequently given to the Court's judgments by national courts and authorities in many countries, the mere publication and dissemination of the judgments, where necessary translated and with accompanying instructions/recommendations, is in many circumstances sufficient to achieve the changes in law and practice necessary to prevent new violations and ensure the effectiveness of domestic remedies.

As to the supervision procedure, it is based on "action plans" and "action reports" submitted, by the respondent State to the Committee of Ministers. "Action plans" and "action reports" can be consulted under "Additional information".

Since 2011, the Committee of Ministers supervises the execution process, and in particular the adoption and implementation of action plans, through a new twin track procedure: a standard one for most cases and an enhanced procedure for cases requiring urgent individual measures or revealing important structural problems (notably pilot judgments). Enhanced supervision is also applied to inter-state cases. Where necessary, the Committee may intervene to support the execution process, notably through decisions and interim resolutions with suggestions and recommendations. In addition, states can, in the context of their examination of the necessary execution measures request support from the Department for the Execution of Judgments of the Court (advise, legal expertises, round tables and other targeted cooperation activities). Important support in this latter respect is given by the Human Rights Trust Fund.

Following the entry into force of Protocol No. 14, on 1st June 2010, the Committee can refer a case to the Court, if it considers that the execution of the judgment is hindered by a problem of interpretation of the judgment, or if it considers that the respondent state is refusing to abide by the judgment (Article 46, paragraphs 3 and 4).

Where the Committee of Ministers considers that all execution measures required have been adopted, it closes its examination of the case by adopting a final resolution (awaiting the adoption of such a resolution, cases are listed under a special appendix to the agenda).

Details on the supervision of the execution of Court judgments by the Committee of Ministers can also be found in the annual reports presenting, inter alia thematic overviews of the main cases in which developments have intervened in the course of the year and statistical data on the execution of Court judgments.

Information on the inter-governmental work engaged in order to guarantee the long term efficiency of the ECHR system, including efforts to accelerate the execution process and make it more efficient can be found on: http://www.coe.int/T/E/Human_rights/cddh/
 
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For the developmentally disabled, perhaps...

I believe most lurkers to this thread are by now convinced of Knox's guilt.

Only to the extent that such lurkers may be bona fide idiots, without two properly functioning brain cells to rub together.
 
Here is some information that you may find helpful in understanding the future. I've bolded or highlighted some points I consider among the more important. From:

http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/execution/presentation/about_EN.asp

Execution of Judgments of the European Court of Human Rights

The Contracting parties undertake to abide by the final judgments of the European Court of Human Rights ("the Court") in the cases to which they are parties (Article 46, paragraph 1). The Convention entrusts the Committee of Ministers with the supervision of Court judgments (Article 46, paragraph 2), as well as the terms of the friendly settlements (see notably Article 39, paragraph 4, as amended following the entry into force of Protocol No. 14, on 1st June 2010).

Most judgments only declare the violations established, leaving to the States, under the supervision of the Committee of Ministers, to define the required execution measures. These measures depend on the circumstances of each case. In a certain number of recent judgments, in particular those concerned by the pilot judgment procedure, the Court has, however, started to make certain recommendations with respect to execution.

When exercising its supervisory function, the Committee of Ministers is assisted by the Department for the Execution of Judgments of the Court (established within the Directorate General of Human Rights and Legal Affairs).

The obligation to abide by the judgments encompasses two main elements. As far as the applicant’s individual situation is concerned, the main obligation is to ensure that measures are taken which achieve, as far as possible, restitutio in integrum for the applicant. Such measures include notably the effective payment of the just satisfaction allocated by the Court (including the payment of default interests in case of belated payment). When the consequences of a violation cannot be adequately erased by the just satisfaction awarded, the Committee of Ministers makes sure that the domestic authorities take the other specific individual measures in favour of the applicant which may be required. Such measures can, for example, consist in the granting of a residence permit, the reopening of a judicial procedure and/or the erasure of a conviction from the criminal records.
On a more general level, the obligation also includes the prevention of violations similar to those found by the Court. General measures which may be necessary include notably constitutional changes or legislative amendments, changes in the case-law of the national courts, as well as practical measures, such as the recruitment of judges or refurbishing obsolete prison facilities. The efficiency of domestic remedies is an important element of general measures and States are notably recommended by the Committee of Ministers to review, following Court judgments which point to structural or general deficiencies in national law or practice, the effectiveness of the existing remedies and, where necessary, set up effective ones, in order to avoid repetitive cases being brought before the Court.

In view of the direct effect frequently given to the Court's judgments by national courts and authorities in many countries, the mere publication and dissemination of the judgments, where necessary translated and with accompanying instructions/recommendations, is in many circumstances sufficient to achieve the changes in law and practice necessary to prevent new violations and ensure the effectiveness of domestic remedies.

As to the supervision procedure, it is based on "action plans" and "action reports" submitted, by the respondent State to the Committee of Ministers. "Action plans" and "action reports" can be consulted under "Additional information".

Since 2011, the Committee of Ministers supervises the execution process, and in particular the adoption and implementation of action plans, through a new twin track procedure: a standard one for most cases and an enhanced procedure for cases requiring urgent individual measures or revealing important structural problems (notably pilot judgments). Enhanced supervision is also applied to inter-state cases. Where necessary, the Committee may intervene to support the execution process, notably through decisions and interim resolutions with suggestions and recommendations. In addition, states can, in the context of their examination of the necessary execution measures request support from the Department for the Execution of Judgments of the Court (advise, legal expertises, round tables and other targeted cooperation activities). Important support in this latter respect is given by the Human Rights Trust Fund.

Following the entry into force of Protocol No. 14, on 1st June 2010, the Committee can refer a case to the Court, if it considers that the execution of the judgment is hindered by a problem of interpretation of the judgment, or if it considers that the respondent state is refusing to abide by the judgment (Article 46, paragraphs 3 and 4).

Where the Committee of Ministers considers that all execution measures required have been adopted, it closes its examination of the case by adopting a final resolution (awaiting the adoption of such a resolution, cases are listed under a special appendix to the agenda).

Details on the supervision of the execution of Court judgments by the Committee of Ministers can also be found in the annual reports presenting, inter alia thematic overviews of the main cases in which developments have intervened in the course of the year and statistical data on the execution of Court judgments.

Information on the inter-governmental work engaged in order to guarantee the long term efficiency of the ECHR system, including efforts to accelerate the execution process and make it more efficient can be found on: http://www.coe.int/T/E/Human_rights/cddh/
Numbers

Thank you for your post and links that you have provided. However, my difficulty remains a lack of knowledge as to the legal basis of the slander application, I understand why it remains confidential but without knowing the legal arguments in the ECHR application the links have no context.
 
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This false allegation disqualifies you. Stefanoni was assistent professor for 8 years before working for the Polizia Scientifica.

(Shrug). Okay. I'm disqualified. Now can you explain to this disqualified person how someone who didn't even have a Ph.D. had mastered LCN DNA analysis to such a degree that she never had one single contamination event, despite working in a laboratory which was not equipped with safeguards against contamination suitable to the task, while experienced professionals with Ph.D.s and years of experience using the best equipment in the world still get contamination sometimes?

I mean, I'm also kind of suspicious that what you call "assistent professor" is what I'd call a "lab assistant". However it's a distraction. Let's not get distracted.
 
I have looked around but hadn’t found anything relating to the slander application and I know that you and others are close to the Knox family and as such may have more insight; whether you are wasting your time or not is not for me to decide or comment on.



Yes my support remains with the Kercher family and I still do not know any members of Meredith’s family. I am curious as to what the outcome will be of the 3rd level trial next spring and the status of the ECHR slander application.

To provide some specifics as follow-up to my previous general-information response to this post, I see two possibilities:

1. If the admissibility decision on Amanda Knox's application on her calunnia conviction is published after the CSC appeal is finalized. There are several possibilities regarding what the CSC verdict will be. However, with a positive admissibility decision, the Italian judiciary will either move to strike the calunnia conviction immediately or wait until after the ECtHR finds Italy in violation of one or more of Ms. Knox's rights.

2. If the admissibility decision comes before the CSC appeal is heard, it is quite possible that the CSC will choose to quash the Nencini verdict to avoid additional ECHR violations by Italy. And of course, the calunnia conviction will be striken either immediately or after ECtHR finds Italy in violation of the ECHR.
 
par for the course from Follain

My issue is that I never read that Meredeth's DNA was found on cleaning rags?
Desert Fox,

IIRC Follain said DNA was found on a sponge. However, I have never seen this claim substantiated in any way shape or form, which is about what one would expect from Follain.
 
I believe most lurkers to this thread are by now convinced of Knox's guilt.

That very well could be.

I wish one of them, though, would put together a timeline of the crime which explains the evidence. The best kept secret of most on this side of the fence is that if a convincing timeline could be put together, we'd be on your side!

It has to explain why a crime could be committed leaving the forensic footprint of only one of three people charged..... that sort of thing.

I am sure that both you and lurkers know the drill from this point....
 
(Shrug). Okay. I'm disqualified. Now can you explain to this disqualified person how someone who didn't even have a Ph.D. had mastered LCN DNA analysis to such a degree that she never had one single contamination event, despite working in a laboratory which was not equipped with safeguards against contamination suitable to the task, while experienced professionals with Ph.D.s and years of experience using the best equipment in the world still get contamination sometimes?

I mean, I'm also kind of suspicious that what you call "assistent professor" is what I'd call a "lab assistant". However it's a distraction. Let's not get distracted.


Stefanoni is a highly qualified scientist training under highly respected scientists. We are told. CV nowhere to be found. Surely thay must have laid a foundation for her testimony in court as to her "expert" status. I wonder if that is anything more than the title of her position. Machiavelli has made statements about her work as a professor or something. Nothing more than that, that I am aware of. I hold onto the contrast of her supposed high qualifications, and her actions to destroy the bra clasp as evidence. Machiavelli's response to my query about that was that it was a matter of "context". It just wasn't important, or they were going to destroy it anyway. Although they did store it for some mLogical reason.
 
To provide some specifics as follow-up to my previous general-information response to this post, I see two possibilities:

1. If the admissibility decision on Amanda Knox's application on her calunnia conviction is published after the CSC appeal is finalized. There are several possibilities regarding what the CSC verdict will be. However, with a positive admissibility decision, the Italian judiciary will either move to strike the calunnia conviction immediately or wait until after the ECtHR finds Italy in violation of one or more of Ms. Knox's rights.

2. If the admissibility decision comes before the CSC appeal is heard, it is quite possible that the CSC will choose to quash the Nencini verdict to avoid additional ECHR violations by Italy. And of course, the calunnia conviction will be striken either immediately or after ECtHR finds Italy in violation of the ECHR.
I recall AmyStrange posted a link in the previous thread of actual ECHR cases up to and beyond the schedule date of the 3rd level trial and unsurprisingly there is not a posted date, my conclusion is because it has not been processed yet if and when it is we would at least then know what is the legal arguments.
 
Numbers

Thank you for your post and links that you have provided. However, my difficulty remains a lack of knowledge as to the legal basis of the slander application, I understand why it remains confidential but without knowing the legal arguments in the ECHR application the links have no context.

While I have no idea what the actual application states, it is common knowledge that Ms. Knox was denied a lawyer and a fair interpreter, and was not informed of her right to remain silent, while in police custody and interrogated. The ECHR case-law that applies includes Salduz v Turkey, 36391/02. These are violations of the right to a fair trial, ECHR Article 6. Failure of the Italian authorities with respect to these rights have a fatal effect on the fairness of the subsequent trial (paraphrasing ECtHR case-law). These are also violations of Italian law and the Italian Constitution.

She also has claimed that her false statements were coerced, including through abusive police actions such as slapping; she has apparently submitted that at each court stage. It appears that the Italian authorities have not conducted an effective investigation of these claims. Thus Italy may also be in violation of Article 3, which has two parts:
Substantive (committing acts of torture or inhuman and degrading treatment) or Procedural (failing to effectively investigate claims of such acts). Again, any such coercion would be a violation of Italian law.

ETA: On a somewhat different track, I believe that the Kercher family's rights were violated by the Italian authorities, in two ways. First, when they allowed Rudy Guede to go free after he was arrested in Milan after breaking into a children's nursey. This could be a violation of ECHR Article 2, right to life; the Italian authorities let an armed burglar loose without any safeguards. This would be especially heinous if indeed Guede was, as some have suggested, a police informant. Second, the long-drawn out trials of of AK and RS, conducted in a way that makes these trials unfair and invalid under Italian law and the Convention, no doubt have placed the Kerchers under emotional stress. It could be argued that this constitutes a violation of Article 3 by Italy against the Kerchers.
 
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A tale of two Stefanonis

(Shrug). Okay. I'm disqualified. Now can you explain to this disqualified person how someone who didn't even have a Ph.D. had mastered LCN DNA analysis to such a degree that she never had one single contamination event, despite working in a laboratory which was not equipped with safeguards against contamination suitable to the task, while experienced professionals with Ph.D.s and years of experience using the best equipment in the world still get contamination sometimes?

I mean, I'm also kind of suspicious that what you call "assistent professor" is what I'd call a "lab assistant". However it's a distraction. Let's not get distracted.
Kevin_Lowe,

There is a Patrizia Stefanoni who is or was affiliated with the University of Naples. "A Novel Hyperekplexia-causing Mutation in the Pre-transmembrane Segment 1 of the Human Glycine Receptor α1 Subunit Reduces Membrane Expression and Impairs Gating by Agonists" a 2004 paper in the Journal of Biological Chemistry lists her as a coauthor. This is probably not the same Patrizia Stefanoni who works in DNA profiling, based on the fact that the work is in a somewhat different area. Even if it wre the same Stefanoni, a coauthorship on a paper would not make her an assistant professor. Whether this is an honest mistake on Machiavelli's part or not is not something on which I care to comment at this time.
ETA
The Patrizia Stefanoni on this paper is listed as being in the Department of Child Neuropsychiatry. I also found that the paper "Organization and Nucleotide Sequence of the Cluster of Five Histone Genes in the Polichaete Worm Chaetopterus variopedatus: First Record of a H1 Histone Gene in the Phylum Annelida" lists a Patrizia Stefanoni as a coauthor. Journal of Molecular Evolution (1998).
 
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For the lurkers out there, the majority of whom believe in the guilt of Amanda Knox and of Raffaele Sollecito....

The challenge is to put together a time-line of the crime which supports that guilt. Incredibly, two Italian courts have convicted the pair, with no reasonable timeline attached.

The timeline would need to look something like at this link:

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/timeline-november-1/

Good luck. It would be good if lurkers would give this a look and see what happens to beliefs....
 
I wasn't referring to manufacturing evidence but rather the breaking of the law some of them did unrelated to this case. For instance, wasn't someone convicted of some kind of abuse of office - - for obtaining confidential information for their own benefit in a divorce case or custody battle or something? A few of them have had instances of less-than-stellar behavior outside of this case. That's what I was referring to.

Napoleoni, Squarta, Zugarini and Gubbiotti have been put under investigation for abuse of office with the charge of having performed unauthorized investigation, that is investigation for personal purposes. I point out that nobody has been convicted, not even indicted yet. The abusive investigation appears to be related to some intent of collecting sensitive information about a psychologist with relation to a child custody battle. The "child" was actually a teenager who happened to have a terrible relationship with his father.

A prosecutor requested the suspension of Napoleoni and Zugarini, while the Investigation Judge suspended only her friend Zugarini but said there was not serious evidence about Napoleoni. However, Napoleoni was moved to another function.Evidence of involvements of Gubbiotti and Squarta appeared as marginal, they were not sanctioned as far as I recall, I don't know if they are still suspected of something. Now, while I'm not in a position of drawing conclusions about who among them is guilty of something, what I think is this case seems obviously unrelated with a conspiracy theory scenario. You can't buld a conspiracy theory based on evidence of personal family raws. Napoleoni may have a motive to commit a crime clearly related to her sphere of personal interest, and her friends might cover up for her, as it happens for everyone. But a conspiracy to frame an innocent would require some other solid motive with some actual personal interest into play, a much stronger organization, a wider partecipation, technical capabilities, and once put in play this conspiracy would employ a consistent logic: manufactured evidence would be mae of gross and crushing pieces.
As for having a "less then stellar" records, I want to recall that multiple members of the Sollecito family were investigated too, and were found to be plotting with politicians and other subjects not exactly ina a nice way.
 
Stefanoni is a highly qualified scientist training under highly respected scientists. We are told. CV nowhere to be found. Surely thay must have laid a foundation for her testimony in court as to her "expert" status. I wonder if that is anything more than the title of her position. Machiavelli has made statements about her work as a professor or something. Nothing more than that, that I am aware of. I hold onto the contrast of her supposed high qualifications, and her actions to destroy the bra clasp as evidence. Machiavelli's response to my query about that was that it was a matter of "context". It just wasn't important, or they were going to destroy it anyway. Although they did store it for some mLogical reason.

They stored it because, I assume, they didn't have an order to destroy it outright.
To confer with Stefanoni and ask for her CV, her e-mail is easilly available, putting her name with dot before the domain "interno.it"
 
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I believe most lurkers to this thread are by now convinced of Knox's guilt.

This statement, if intended seriously, is indeed remarkable.

I believe that most people that read this forum are intelligent and logical, and not as you portray them.
 
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