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Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Agreed Machiavelli, TMB is not a confirmatory test. Tell us about the confirmatory test that was used
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Stefanoni said in 2008 that "several tests" were done on samples from the corridoor from spots where also footprints were found. She also said that those tests were negative. She also said (back in 2008, Oct. 4.) that basically this always happens on luminol prints even when it's blood.

How do you justify coming to a positive conclusion in the absence of any confirmatory test and a negative TMB test?

I recall now a post of 2013 on this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9582907#post9582907

I call the luminol footprint set a piece of circumstantial evidence.
I summarized again, a page ago, why I see significant information in the luminol footprint set, and why I conclude they are in blood. One of the points, just to say one, the fact that there are bare footprints with stunnignly identical features (isolated, bare feet, diluted substance, same sizes) that were found on the same crime scene and they were in actual diluted blood (and they are explained by belong to the same dynamic).

Quote from my linked post above:

Machiavelli said:
Yes, if this was the only piece of information, itself, it would be insufficient information. I mean, if it was a random otherwise meaningless stain.
But if the stain has the shape of human foot and if the distribution of the barefoot prints is not explained by a random normal activity, and if there are other identical footprints actually proven to be in diluted blood, which also have identical peculiarities (isolated, not part of a trail, diluted/washed by water, and possibly even produced by the same person), and one of the luminol stain yields DNA suspect+victim and another one corresponds to a washed up former print originally belonging to the Rudy Guede trail, and when you don't have any other plausible substance in the apartment, or even that you can think about, as plausible alternative ... If you happen to have these and other further pieces of information as we in fact have, well in this event the assessment should be "holistic", as the Supreme Court suggest.


acbytesla said:
Also, please tell all us laymen out here why most forensic techs (including Stefanoni) use TMB as a secondary presumptive test after Luminol? Are all these techs and forensic manuals wrong? (This is a serious question Mach...don't dodge it).

Personally, I frankly believe there may be a habit of always performing TMB test because the luminol test may be very difficult to document and record (what happens if you make it wrong?); I think the habit to do the TMB test too is because TMB is so quick, cheap and easy.
 
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1st highlight - Well that really is the question, isn't it? No good legitimate reason at all that I can see. I think that's where the outrage comes from.

2nd highlight - Yes. Here's an experiment. Take a plain white paper plate and sprinkle some ketchup on it. No press your thumb into a puddle of the ketchup. Now try to erase your thumb print. Now imagine trying to do that with footprints in blood at a bloody murder scene you just happen to innocently have stumbled upon. Now look in a mirror, and describe this scenario, out loud, without laughing.

3rd highlite - as you wish.
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If you're wearing gloves, you don't leave fingerprints to begin with, and as far as footprints are concerned, it's quite easy to obliterate the first set of ketchup footprints with a second set of ketchup footprints, if done soon after the first set are laid down. Go ahead and try it for yourself,

d

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ETA: I did the experiment and posted a photo on my website HERE. I couldn't find the darn ketchup, so I used hot sauce instead. I laid two set of tracks with my fingers, and then a fourth set over a third set. Which one is the set of finger tracks and which ones were the shoe (which is shown in the picture along with the glove) prints and which is the glove prints and which was laid first, second, third, and last?

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You missed something:


"This study evaluated the reliability of the luminol test for identifying bloodstains with samples contaminated by a reducing agent and compared its reliability with other reagents normally used in presumptive tests for bloodstains; the accuracy limits and safety characteristics of luminol were also reviewed."​

What reducing agent could have interfered with all of those stains in three separate locations?
 
All good points df, but what I'm saying about improbability is that it's not impossible for someone to kill someone without leaving evidence behind, but just because someone was there (to me anyway) doesn't prove he or she's the killer, nor would I convict someone of first degree (premeditated) murder on that alone. If you found the murder weapon on him or her and you could prove it, that would be different.

I guess I just have a different idea (than you) of what reasonable doubt means. For example, if someone confessed and then recanted, and since I know a lot about false confessions (and how possible they are), I would give the defendant a pass on the confession, especially one like Amanda's with no details about the murder what so ever.

My idea of reasonable doubt is different than yours, obviously, so you would not want me on a jury, if you were trying to convict someone of a crime, but you would definitely want me on your jury if you were ever charged with a crime that you didn't commit, which is probably why I've never been selected for a jury, but I have done mock juries and have been very successful in convincing others that my way of thinking was right.

The issue with me is if it is plausible that somebody else is responsible. I cannot say that it is really plausible.

I also agree with you on recanted confessions
 
You missed something:


"This study evaluated the reliability of the luminol test for identifying bloodstains with samples contaminated by a reducing agent and compared its reliability with other reagents normally used in presumptive tests for bloodstains; the accuracy limits and safety characteristics of luminol were also reviewed."​

What reducing agent could have interfered with all of those stains in three separate locations?

I would guess any sample that is not visible to the naked eye, but revealed by luminol, has been "contaminated" by a "reducing agent," be it a chemical cleanser or a sponge.
 
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Stefanoni said in 2008 that "several tests" were done on samples from the corridoor from spots where also footprints were found. She also said that those tests were negative. She also said (back in 2008, Oct. 4.) that basically this always happens on luminol prints even when it's blood.


I recall now a post of 2013 on this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9582907#post9582907

I call the luminol footprint set a piece of circumstantial evidence.
I summarized again, a page ago, why I see significant information in the luminol footprint set, and why I conclude they are in blood. One of the points, just to say one, the fact that there are bare footprints with stunnignly identical features (isolated, bare feet, diluted substance, same sizes) that were found on the same crime scene and they were in actual diluted blood (and they are explained by belong to the same dynamic).

Quote from my linked post above:
I'm flabbergasted why you would rely on Stefanoni expertise when in fact it is obvious that she has a clear natural bias as would any tech testifying for the prosecution.

While I agree with you that some of Luminol prints appear to be bare feet, I'm not sure that is the case with all of the prints. Never the less, I'm not sure whether they were made by bare feet has any bearing as to whether or not the substance was blood or not. Also, I'm not sure why it matters that the prints showed up with Luminol at a crime scene considering that a crime scene is about the only place you would apply Luminol. Can't you see that you are using circular logic to confirm your own conclusion?

First you seem to say a confirmatory test should be applied just not TMB. Even though TMB is commonly used as a secondary presumptive test to determine if confirmatory test is required. Then you are willing to contradict yourself because the Luminol prints showed up in a crime scene. Therefore the lack of confirmatory test is not required?

Don't you see that you are just "cherry picking" so you can come to a guilty verdict?
 
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You do not repeat my opinion, unless you paste it. Apparently what you do is you interpret my opinon (and others'), you select only something from it (a word, a theme, etc.) only a tiny bit of your interest with a scissor work, cutting away amounts of something else, further meanings and possible all the rest, then you change the bit or crook it (elaborate it with some inference of yours, add some word and meaning of yours etc.) and re-frame it (into some statement or slogan).

Machiavelli, calm down.

You can enlighten us all, yet you shoot the messenger. Good for you.
 
I would guess any sample that is not visible to the naked eye, but revealed by luminol, has been "contaminated" by a "reducing agent," be it a chemical cleanser or a sponge.

I think a "reducing agent" would just lower the power of the luminol reaction, since would share the catalyst to react with hydrogen peroxide in its place (it depend what would mean by reducing agent, reducing what; water can even be a reducing agent).
 
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Stefanoni said in 2008 that "several tests" were done on samples from the corridoor from spots where also footprints were found. She also said that those tests were negative. She also said (back in 2008, Oct. 4.) that basically this always happens on luminol prints even when it's blood.

If you're referring to what you just posted on the subject she doesn't say that at all. They're talking about the amorphous blob inside Filomena's room (not the corridor) and she never says anything was negative but that it was 'too risky' to do those tests because of the possibility of false negatives. If you think she's actually saying it always happens on luminol tests then you have either an outright lie or a breathtaking admission of incompetence. Here's the passage you posted:



"QUESTION - Here I wanted to ask about it if it was found to be blood stains, if it was blood?
ANSWER - Then it was not possible, it is presumably because the blood test is a test of the luminol practically orientation, a test is not specific for the substance in blood but of course also reacts with the substance in blood
Q. - Let's talk about floor room Romanelli then those spots, then analyzed those tracks were highlighted with luminol?
ANSWER - Yes, those tracks there, yes.
Q. - In what has been done so in a unique environment ...
/ REPLY - Those on the floor.
Q. - Let's talk about just inside the room Romanelli, eh, not on the floor?
ANSWER - No, no, I can look for a moment?
QUESTION - Yes, of course ..
ANSWER - I want to be precise but I think ... because I have to refer to the description of the tracks. So, yes, the 176 in the record that the inspection was named as L1.
QUESTION - Yes, highlighted by luminol technique, accurate, and then there is also 177.
ANSWER - Yes, 177, 180 and 183, are the only traces highlighted by Luminol and found in it which gave a result from the point of view of the genetic profile.
QUESTION - Ok! So then they gave result D.N.A. Meredith Kercher?
ANSWER - Yes, the 176.
QUESTION - Perfect! And for what concerns the verification if it were or less of blood?
ANSWER - You can not do it because the luminol, in fact, as I said before is a reactive chemical that reacts with various substances not only with blood, it reacts with some detergents day everyday ...
QUESTION - Yes, yes, we know, we have also seen in the observations of the consultants of Defense in connection with the ...
ANSWER - Yes. And it was, say, also highlighted by the tests carried out in our laboratories; that a determination can then track sampled in the laboratory, and highlighted the luminol, to determine whether or not the nature of blood, practically it is very risky because, being the trace of luminol by definition a track completely invisible to the naked eye so small, if it were a trace of blood would still be a blood trail that I would draw attention to the luminol - because the eye does not see it - so it's such an amount so small that I, despite being able to analyze, however, the track with a test that will show me whether or not the nature of blood, I would risk to get false negatives that is a test ...
QUESTION - I understand, I understand, I'm fine!
ANSWER - Ok, enough!
APPLICATION - The last question is in order to, if she had chaired and participated in the operations of the luminol to visit this track as it was interpreted in the floor of Filomena Romanelli's room, if you can say it, a track that laboratories where she lends his activities reported in shoe print, bare foot or something that can not be determined?
ANSWER - I can look at the inspection report because I do not remember by heart.
QUESTION - No, no, then we just need the content of the inspection report!"​


I recall now a post of 2013 on this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9582907#post9582907

I call the luminol footprint set a piece of circumstantial evidence.
I summarized again, a page ago, why I see significant information in the luminol footprint set, and why I conclude they are in blood. One of the points, just to say one, the fact that there are bare footprints with stunnignly identical features (isolated, bare feet, diluted substance, same sizes) that were found on the same crime scene and they were in actual diluted blood (and they are explained by belong to the same dynamic).

You have no idea whether all the prints were of a diluted substance, you're assuming your conclusion in defiance of the evidence. The bright glowing pictures they made of the luminol hits strongly suggests whatever substance caused the reaction was not diluted, and 'isolated bare feet of (roughly) the same size' isn't much of an identifier when you're using something that can literally get reactions from substances that are years old (and have even been painted over!) like luminol can.
 
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If you're wearing gloves, you don't leave fingerprints to begin with, and as far as footprints are concerned, it's quite easy to obliterate the first set of ketchup footprints with a second set of ketchup footprints, if done soon after the first set are laid down. Go ahead and try it for yourself,

d

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I don't believe this is possible. Would you consider trying to prove it, with ketchup on a paper plate, and posting the images here for review?

I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong, but it strikes me as impossible to "erase footprints" in blood, without leaving a tell tale smearing of the liquid around the footprints.

Can you "unprint" foot tracks in the snow?

Gloves may prevent finger prints, but they wouldn't prevent finger tracks, ie the depression of the gloved finger into the liquid medium its printing on.

I'm really surprised to be having this argument. Are you ok?
 
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I think a "reducing agent" would just lower the power of the luminol reaction, since would share the catalyst to react with hydrogen peroxide in its place (it depend what would mean by reducing agent, reducing what; water can even be a reducing agent).

In your opinion were the luminol reactions considered strong? I know they were not perfectly formed (as in perfect outlines of feet, etc.). Was there evidence of a cleaning action having been done?

And hello to all. It is funny how I come here and find the site has changed (I guess I missed all the excitement) but thankfully the discussion has remained the same.
 
I would guess any sample that is not visible to the naked eye, but revealed by luminol, has been "contaminated" by a "reducing agent," be it a chemical cleanser or a sponge.

Not if it were highly diluted blood in water, which is the only way most of these (outside the amorphous blob in Filomena's room) still could be blood.

They can't be cleaned up pure blood spots because they're still intact as recognizable shapes of feet as opposed to a cleaning pattern. When that blood or other material is cleaned up it gets spread out over where it is being wiped and the original shape of the print is destroyed. Think about it! :)
 
I'm flabbergasted why you would rely on Stefanoni expertise when in fact it is obvious that she has a clear natural bias as would any tech testifying for the prosecution.

While I agree with you that some of Luminol prints appear to be bare feet, I'm not sure that is the case with all of the prints. Never the less, I'm not sure whether they were made by bare feet has any bearing as to whether or not the substance was blood or not. Also, I'm not sure why it matters that the prints showed up with Luminol at a crime scene considering that a crime scene is about the only place you would apply Luminol. Can't you see that you are using circular logic to confirm your own conclusion?

First you seem to say a confirmatory test should be applied just not TMB. Even though TMB is commonly used as a secondary presumptive test to determine if confirmatory test is required. Then you are willing to contradict yourself because the Luminol prints showed up in a crime scene. Therefore the lack of confirmatory test is not required?

Don't you see that you are just "cherry picking" so you can come to a guilty verdict?

Frankly... I don't follow you. Really. I don't think I "rely" that much on Stefanoni's expertise, actually I think Stefanoni has really little to do with the footprint evidence. There are print analysis experts for that. And I can look at the footprints evidence myself a little. On the other hand I don't see why should I not trust Stefanoni as a witness: I utterly disagree with anyone who considers her a liar or biased. I see no evidence of that. You can see a prosecutor consultant as naturallly biased, but hardly "naturally a liar".

Then you say:
"Never the less, I'm not sure whether they were made by bare feet has any bearing as to whether or not the substance was blood or not. Also, I'm not sure why it matters that the prints showed up with Luminol at a crime scene considering that a crime scene is about the only place you would apply Luminol".

Unfortunately, I don't see much logic in that. Why it matters that the prints show up at a crime scene, since you only apply luminol on a crime scene? But because most crime scenes don't have bare feet showing up, even less they have isolated bare feet with such features (isolated, no trail); and because, most crime scenes don't have bare feet that show up in diluted blood (on a bathmat); and, really, most scenes don't have isolated bare feet showing up in diluted blood and isolated bare feet showing up in luminol at the same time;
Should be enough, but there is more; also most scenes don't have bare isolated prints in a diluted luminol-positive substance that belong to two different individuals; and if this was not enough, one of this print has size and shape similar to a print in diluted blood; it's not finihsed, also those prints happen to be all in an area of the house, along the path between the murder room and the suspect's room, explainable through just one dynamic, that would be two people washing themselves ,shuffling with the bathmat to the room and performing a rough cleaning.

And there is more: there are two more instances, two luminol stains also in the room where the putative staging was performed. Those stains yield a mixed DNA profile of victim + Knox. There is no reason for Meredith's DNA to be on the floor of Romanelli's room, and there is absolutely no reasons for Knox's DNA to be in Romanelli's room. Yet they are on the floor, mixed in two stains that are positive to luminol.
And in the the bath where the bare footprints are coming from, there is also blood of Knox, there is also blood of Meredith, and there are also blood stains with mixed DNA of both of them.

But it's me the one who is cherry picking with a confirmatory bias.
I should ignore all this because I don't have a blood confirmatory test? Would that be rational, in your view?
 
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Not if it were highly diluted blood in water, which is the only way most of these (outside the amorphous blob in Filomena's room) still could be blood.

They can't be cleaned up pure blood spots because they're still intact as recognizable shapes of feet as opposed to a cleaning pattern. When that blood or other material is cleaned up it gets spread out over where it is being wiped and the original shape of the print is destroyed. Think about it! :)

Maybe you should think about the fact that Halkides has already responded to my original post, clamied to have read the article, and didn't mention anything about "reducing agents."

My guess is it's not about what you're reacting to, and is actually about something else. Like whether the reactivity of luminol calls into question the necessity of further tests.

I would love to read the article, so if you have it, pass it along. Maybe Halkides will share it in its entirety.
 
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I don't believe this is possible. Would you consider trying to prove it, with ketchup on a paper plate, and posting the images here for review?

I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong, but it strikes me as impossible to "erase footprints" in blood, without leaving a tell tale smearing of the liquid around the footprints.

Can you "unprint" foot tracks in the snow?

Gloves may prevent finger prints, but they wouldn't prevent finger tracks, ie the depression of the gloved finger into the liquid medium its printing on.

I'm really surprised to be having this argument. Are you ok?
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I did and linked to a picture of it in my original post, but I'll link to it again HERE. Sorry, I don't have the best camera in the world.

Anyway, I couldn't find the darn ketchup, so I used hot sauce instead. I laid two set of tracks with my fingers, and then a fourth set over a third set. Which one is the set of finger tracks and which ones were the shoe (which is shown in the picture along with the glove) prints and which is the glove prints and which was laid first, second, third, and last?

Hmm, you maybe right about the smearing, but it could certainly help obliterate the first set, leaving it's own smear.

I'm originally from New England, and I do know you can't eliminate snowprints, but you can obliterate them when multiple people walk over the same area so it's hard to tell one track from the other, with the exception of the final set of tracks. The same thing is true of mud, which (in my opinion) is a lot closer to blood than snow is,

d

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P.S. Yeah, I know what you mean, but I consider it a debate more than an arguement...

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In your opinion were the luminol reactions considered strong? I know they were not perfectly formed (as in perfect outlines of feet, etc.). Was there evidence of a cleaning action having been done?

And hello to all. It is funny how I come here and find the site has changed (I guess I missed all the excitement) but thankfully the discussion has remained the same.

Why do you think I called it the 'Groundhogs Day Massacre?'

I love entendres.
 
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In your opinion were the luminol reactions considered strong? I know they were not perfectly formed (as in perfect outlines of feet, etc.). Was there evidence of a cleaning action having been done?

And hello to all. It is funny how I come here and find the site has changed (I guess I missed all the excitement) but thankfully the discussion has remained the same.

I don't think there is definitive proof that the luminol prints were cleaned up, but I believe they were. I don't believe they were so much diluted at the beginning. I think they were faint but maybe still visible, I think they looked about similar to the most diluted small footprint at the center of the bathmat. I think they were cleaned with water because there are marks of sweeping still visible in the luminol pictures.
But I think it was impossible to remove them completely, because blood substance can be dreadfully difficult to remove.
I believe there is evidence of a cleaning action in the small bathroom, cnsisting in the fact that the bathmat was completely soaked with water (they tried to wash it) and visible because of the inconsistence between the stain bathmat (it has stains all over half of it, and has at least two footprints) and the clean floor: I don't think it would be easy to get the bathmat splashed like that and get with soaked feet on it, while leaving the floor completely cleen. Moreover, there is a heel missing, and no trace of it.
There is also the further evidence of an attempt of cleanup: 1) three towels completely soaked with blood inside the murder room; I would call the use of a towel on a bloody crime scene a "cleanup", and 2) there are some semi-circular marks of sweeping the blood on the floor in Meredith's room; 3) there is one of the shoeprints, probably one of Rudy's trail, that was missing, not visible, that turned visible as latent print with luminol, and it yielded the mixed profile of Knox + Meredith.
 
Frankly... I don't follow you. Really. I don't think I "rely" that much on Stefanoni's expertise, actually I think Stefanoni has really little to do with the footprint evidence. There are print analysis experts for that. And I can look at the footprints evidence myself a little. On the other hand I don't see why should I not trust Stefanoni as a witness: I utterly disagree with anyone who considers her a liar or biased. I see no evidence of that. You can see a prosecutor consultant as naturallly biased, but hardly "naturally a liar".

Then you say:
"Never the less, I'm not sure whether they were made by bare feet has any bearing as to whether or not the substance was blood or not. Also, I'm not sure why it matters that the prints showed up with Luminol at a crime scene considering that a crime scene is about the only place you would apply Luminol".

Unfortunately, I don't see much logic in that. Why it matters that the prints show up at a crime scene, since you only apply luminol on a crime scene? But because most crime scenes don't have bare feet showing up, even less they have isolated bare feet with such features (isolated, no trail); and because, most crime scenes don't have bare feet that show up in diluted blood (on a bathmat); and, really, most scenes don't have isolated bare feet showing up in diluted blood and isolated bare feet showing up in luminol at the same time;
Should be enough, but there is more; also most scenes don't have bare isolated prints in a diluted luminol-positive substance that belong to two different individuals; and if this was not enough, one of this print has size and shape similar to a print in diluted blood; it's not finihsed, also those prints happen to be all in an area of the house, along the path between the murder room and the suspect's room, explainable through just one dynamic, that would be two people washing themselves ,shuffling with the bathmat to the room and performing a rough cleaning.

And there is more: there are two more instances, two luminol stains also in the room where the putative staging was performed. Those stains yield a mixed DNA profile of victim + Knox. There is no reason for Meredith's DNA to be on the floor of Romanelli's room, and there is absolutely no reasons for Knox's DNA to be in Romanelli's room. Yet they are on the floor, mixed in two stains that are positive to luminol.
And in the the bath where the bare footprints are coming from, there is also blood of Knox, there is also blood of Meredith, and there are also blood stains with mixed DNA of both of them.

But it's me the one who is cherry picking with a confirmatory bias.
I should ignore all this because I don't have a blood confirmatory test? Would that be rational, in your view?

Around and round you go with your logic.

The point is that Luminol in and of itself cannot tell you that it is blood. You seemingly agree that a confirmatory test is required but the simple fact that bare feet "appeared" to make these prints and it happened at a bloody crime scene, you throw that basic forensic expertise out the window. I would have no problem agreeing that these stains were blood if a confirmatory test proved that they were blood.

And you are 100 percent wrong that Knox's or Kercher's DNA shouldn't have been found in Filomena's room. They LIVED in the cottage, they are living in a soup of DNA from everyone that lived in the cottage. Their DNA is throughout the cottage, They wouldn't have to ever have gone in Filomena's room for their DNA to appear there as Filomena or a police officer could have dragged it into the room from the hallway. Don't forget that long before they even noticed Rudy's bloody footprints countless people walked on them dragging that biological material with them. Their DNA in their own home is a mere coincidence, one that you would expect to find anywhere and everywhere in the cottage. This is again selectively adding meaning to something that is meaningless.
 
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Maybe you should think about the fact that Halkides has already responded to my original post, clamied to have read the article, and didn't mention anything about "reducing agents."

His brevity on the subject may have been due to previous experiences with the interlocutor.

My guess is it's not about what you're reacting to, and is actually about something else. Like whether the reactivity of luminol calls into question the necessity of further tests.

That's just all kinds of stupid and defies even what Stefanoni testified on the subject. Luminol gets all sorts of false positives, she noted detergents in what Machiavelli posted yesterday that I just reposted.

I would love to read the article, so if you have it, pass it along. Maybe Halkides will share it in its entirety.

I no longer have free access to archives like that, cough up the cash if you want to read it.
 
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