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Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Note that there are issues with contamination and with the intercept level of the quantification going high (by up to a factor of about 16 - the quant. curves are log-linear).

The contamination levels are as large or perhaps larger than the so-called Meredith Kercher DNA allegedly detected on the knife blade.

The increases in intercept level seem to occur at strategic times to make it appear that there is more DNA in the samples than there would be in a properly calibrated test. It is unclear if this increase is due to machine malfunction or lab misconduct. However, in the first instance, the lab switched to another quantification method, the Qubit fluorometer, when this increase reached a high level. However, the Qubit does not give reliably accurate measurements for low levels of DNA concentration, since its linear calibration is determined by only 2 points.
 
Actually, our difference seems to me not much of philosophies, but in the assessment of a few things of merit.

A point that seems important to me, is that in reality a TMB negative test adds no information at all to the luminol test.

Luminol test is more specific than TMB, by far more sensitive, it is direct instead of requiring a dilution on swab (thus TMB causes even further dilution), while luminol and TMB react to the same array of false positives (exactly the same kind of substances).
Under any point of view the luminol test is better. It is much more difficult to perform, not good for items and more expensive.

Based on these (relatively recent) findings, I say it is wrong to expect that a TMB test would add information after a positive luminol test. I think no knowledge is gained.
That "most likely is not" is an absolutely false statement. TMB coming out positive or negative doesn't change the balance of probability.

Wow! So all those people all around the world using confirmatory tests to see whether luminol splodges really are blood are doing it totally wrong? Italy really is at the forefront of forensics.

There's just one little thing that is bugging me... why does Stefanoni do these tests at all then? I mean, in Machiavelli-land they add nothing whatsoever, so why in Machiavelli-land are forensic technicians packing this stuff in their bag when they go out to a crime scene?

I'm not saying you're wrong, totally and utterly wrong or that you are just plain lying your arse off, I'm just confused and hoping you can help me out.
 
A point that seems important to me, is that in reality a TMB negative test adds no information at all to the luminol test.

Luminol test is more specific than TMB, by far more sensitive, it is direct instead of requiring a dilution on swab (thus TMB causes even further dilution), while luminol and TMB react to the same array of false positives (exactly the same kind of substances).
Under any point of view the luminol test is better. It is much more difficult to perform, not good for items and more expensive.

Based on these (relatively recent) findings, I say it is wrong to expect that a TMB test would add information after a positive luminol test. I think no knowledge is gained.
That "most likely is not" is an absolutely false statement. TMB coming out positive or negative doesn't change the balance of probability.

With the sensitivity of TMB, you are writing garbage. If you are testing below the threshold of a few dozen cells, you are not really looking at anything. TMB is used as a presumptive and so is TMB. If you fail the TMB test, odds are extremely high that you have nothing.

Now, even if a presumed sample passes both a presumptive luminol and TMB, it still has to be confirmed as human blood. Every manual on basic forensics tells you that. This was done in the lab but now there is a test which can be done in the field known as Hematrace (and it was available in 2007.)

Besides, I am sure you have heard of the term umber. It is a mineral containing iron oxide and manganese oxide. It just happen to trigger a strong luminol reaction because of its iron oxide. Guess what umber is named after, the region of Umbia. Perugia just happens to be the capital of Umbria. Umber is in the soils so anybody with wet feet will likely leave luminol tracks just from that. As a result, in Perugia, luminol tracks are probably less valuable than they are elsewhere.
 
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Wow! So all those people all around the world using confirmatory tests to see whether luminol splodges really are blood are doing it totally wrong? Italy really is at the forefront of forensics.

There's just one little thing that is bugging me... why does Stefanoni do these tests at all then? I mean, in Machiavelli-land they add nothing whatsoever, so why in Machiavelli-land are forensic technicians packing this stuff in their bag when they go out to a crime scene?

I'm not saying you're wrong, totally and utterly wrong or that you are just plain lying your arse off, I'm just confused and hoping you can help me out.

He's lying his arse face off. Every time he posts on here he makes a complete fool of himself.

JUDGE – ok! And here there is a degree of sensitivity?

ANSWER – It is very sensitive, now I do not know how to say it to him, however, in common practice …

JUDGE – There also cites false positives of the series …

ANSWER – Yes, in the sense that it does not distinguish whether it is human or animal blood, for example.

JUDGE: However where the result is negative I’m given to understand that it’s almost certain that it is not [blood]?

ANSWER: Yes, it’s not blood, it is not, yes.
 
Mach's reasoning seems to go like this: Knox and Sollecito are guilty, therefore everything tending to show otherwise must be wrong. Absence of traces only means they cleaned them up. Luminol hits prove this. Negative TMB falsifying the luminol evidence therefore means the underlying forensic science is wrong or the blood was left in quantities below the detection level for TMB. Curatolo is completely reliable except where we need him to be wrong. All evidence may be assessed the same way: if it points to guilt it is correct or can be amended as necessary. The balance of guilter minds is disturbed.
 
Mach's reasoning seems to go like this: Knox and Sollecito are guilty, therefore everything tending to show otherwise must be wrong. Absence of traces only means they cleaned them up. Luminol hits prove this. Negative TMB falsifying the luminol evidence therefore means the underlying forensic science is wrong or the blood was left in quantities below the detection level for TMB. Curatolo is completely reliable except where we need him to be wrong. All evidence may be assessed the same way: if it points to guilt it is correct or can be amended as necessary. The balance of guilter minds is disturbed.

Make a bet that what I wrote about luminol and TMB, I will be able to verbatim post in the future against another arguing pro guilt
:jaw-dropp
 
He's lying his arse face off. Every time he posts on here he makes a complete fool of himself.

JUDGE – ok! And here there is a degree of sensitivity?

ANSWER – It is very sensitive, now I do not know how to say it to him, however, in common practice …

JUDGE – There also cites false positives of the series …

ANSWER – Yes, in the sense that it does not distinguish whether it is human or animal blood, for example.

JUDGE: However where the result is negative I’m given to understand that it’s almost certain that it is not [blood]?

ANSWER: Yes, it’s not blood, it is not, yes.

From: http://www.nfstc.org/pdi/Subject02/pdi_s02_m02_02_a.htm
(C) 2007 NFSTC Science Serving Justice®

Screening Tests
Benzidine


Blue color


++++


Carcinogen

Tetra methyl benzidine

Blue color


+++


Probable carcinogen

o-Tolidine


Dark green


+++


Probable carcinogen

Phenolphthalein or Kastle Meyer test


Pink color


++


Relatively safe

Leucomalachite green


Green color


++


Relatively safe

Luminol (5-amino-2,3-dihydro-1,4 phthalazinedione)

Fluorescence


+++++


Probable carcinogen

Most screening tests for blood depend on the peroxidase activity of hemoglobin. The most common tests depend on the oxidation of colorless reduced indicators, many of which are conjugated systems and are known or suspected carcinogens.

These tests are not specific for blood. Other biological materials, such as fruits, possess peroxidase activity, and oxidizing agents may be present on surfaces. Some laboratories have used two or more of the tests listed in the table and reported the second as confirming the first. However, since they are all presumptive tests, carrying out two or more tests does not substitute for or constitute a confirmatory test. {The second screening test eliminates the possibility of some false positives which can affect the first screening test. Modern confirmatory tests rely on antibody-antigen reactions. See below.}
-----
If a substance passes one screening test for blood but fails a second, independent - that is, different chemical - screening test for blood, it is NOT blood.-----

Confirmatory Tests

The method of choice today is the ABAcard® HemaTrace test strips manufactured by Abacus Diagnostics, Inc. Stain extract is applied to the bottom of the test strip, where any human hemoglobin present in the extract will combine with a monoclonal antihuman hemoglobin antibody. The antibody is labeled with a dye. Any antibody-antigen formed then migrates through an absorbent membrane to the test area of the strip. The test area has an immobilized polyclonal antihuman hemoglobin that will capture the Ag-Ab complex to form an Ab-Ag-Ab sandwich. The pink dye becomes visible as a band in the test region at concentrations of human hemoglobin above about 0.05 µg/ml. An internal control consisting of human hemoglobin antibody–dye conjugate cannot bind to the antibody in the test area but is captured by an antibody in the control area. A correctly functioning positive test will therefore show two pink bands, one in the test area and one in the control area. A correctly functioning negative test will show only one pink band, in the control area. If there is any problem with the test there will be no visible bands.

The ABAcard® test has been extensively validated and shown to be sensitive, specific and rapid.
 
We covered it in excruciating detail several threads ago. The conclusion was there was a print. Dan knows all about it, as with most things.

I won't commit to the print being left or right at this time. Charlie stated in Continuation Part 4 that this was a left print but I find in the 2009-02-28 testimony of Monica Napoleoni which appears to be his source the handedness is not mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in Massei, Micheli, Rudy's sentencing or any of the other documents that I have available.

The print is clearly visible on the edge of the pillowcase but there is no distinctive characteristic that would give it a right or left. To make this determination we would need the reference print of Rudy. We have a partial view of Rudy's right hand and that may be enough to include or exclude it but I haven't tried yet.
 
I'm not saying you're wrong, totally and utterly wrong or that you are just plain lying your arse off, I'm just confused and hoping you can help me out.


Hey, I'm liking this Machiavelli. His argument comes straight from my posts on the subject. He doesn't understand my post but at least he's showing that he is reading them.

Machiavelli got it right that Luminol and TMB detect the presence of blood in essentially the same way with the same basic chemistry only with a different indicator. What he is still missing is that because TMB uses a 2 step process, there is a whole class of substances that will give a false positive hit with Luminol but a distinct "inconclusive" result with TMB. Many household cleaners with oxidizing agents fall into this class. Also, because the TMB reaction takes place on a swab or strip instead of in situ as with Luminol, there is another class of cases where Luminol will return a positive result and TMB will return a negative. A really old stain that has become one with the floor tile falls into this second class.
 
From: http://www.nfstc.org/pdi/Subject04/pdi_s04_m04.htm

Contamination

Author: Debbie Figarelli

Debbie Figarelli serves as DNA Technical Leader at the National Forensic Science Technology Center. Debbie assists with the development of DNA training programs and participates in compliance audits of DNA laboratories.

Current methods used by forensic DNA laboratories are sensitive and capable of amplifying and detecting low quantities of DNA. With the ability to detect minute quantities of DNA, comes an increased chance of detecting contaminant DNA in both samples and controls. Contamination can happen during any step of the process and can result from a variety of substances, including plant material, bacteria, and human genomic DNA. There are occasions when the source of contamination cannot be determined and/or the incidences are sporadic in nature.

It is not always possible to prevent contamination; however, laboratories should ensure that procedures are in place to:

Minimize the risk of contamination
Detect contamination
Document and implement corrective measures for incidents of contamination

This module focuses on extraneous human genomic DNA deposited after the crime event (during the collection and/or analysis process).

The most common sources of extraneous DNA into the collection and analysis processes are: 01-04

Investigators and laboratory staff
Reagents and consumables
Sample cross contamination during analysis

Sample Cross-Contamination

Many laboratories process samples in batches to streamline analyses. One risk of batch analysis is the inadvertent cross-contamination of DNA from one sample to another sample that was processed concurrently. Most detected sample-to-sample sample contamination will be from samples with higher concentrations of DNA to those with lower concentration.

Reference and Evidentiary Sample Processing

One concern with contamination is that an individual may be falsely linked to a crime. Reference samples are generally good quality DNA samples and result in high quantities of extracted DNA. Many laboratories process samples in a way that isolates evidentiary samples from reference samples during the screening, extraction, and PCR stages. Therefore, the possibility of contaminating an evidentiary sample with reference DNA is avoided.

Detection

Contamination introduced in the laboratory analysis process may not be avoidable, making implementation of procedures to detect these incidences crucial. DNA profiles derived from evidentiary samples and reference samples are uploaded into CODIS and are used to associate individuals with a crime. It is imperative that laboratory procedures are in place to ensure the integrity of the data generated for these functions.

Most manufacturer's multiplexes demonstrate optimum efficiency when approximately 1ng of template DNA is analyzed for 28-30 amplification cycles.06 However, the lower limit of detection can be less than 250 pg. Most contamination events involve small quantities of DNA and therefore will be detected at lower threshold values. Laboratories establish reporting thresholds based on their validation studies. Because most contamination is below that threshold, it will not be reported; analysts should assess any allelic activity under the reporting threshold to determine if it could be from contamination.
Some additional detection processes include:

Assessment of controls
Review of batch profiles
Maintenance of unsourced contamination profiles
Establishment of reference databases

Assessment of Controls

As stated above, negative controls and reagent blanks can greatly assist in the detection of contamination. Positive controls and samples from known sources may also aid in the detection of contamination. Positive controls are single source samples of a known type; the detection of additional alleles may indicate contamination. Reference samples are expected to be from a single-source, and while the DNA profile may be unknown, results that indicate a mixture could be a sign of contamination.
 
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Actually, our difference seems to me not much of philosophies, but in the assessment of a few things of merit.

A point that seems important to me, is that in reality a TMB negative test adds no information at all to the luminol test.

Luminol test is more specific than TMB, by far more sensitive, it is direct instead of requiring a dilution on swab (thus TMB causes even further dilution), while luminol and TMB react to the same array of false positives (exactly the same kind of substances).
Under any point of view the luminol test is better. It is much more difficult to perform, not good for items and more expensive.

Based on these (relatively recent) findings, I say it is wrong to expect that a TMB test would add information after a positive luminol test. I think no knowledge is gained.
That "most likely is not" is an absolutely false statement. TMB coming out positive or negative doesn't change the balance of probability.



I don't know. Only Prof. Potenza used to come to assist to laboratory work, but I don't know if he came for the corridoor samples analysis.

Mach specific and sensitive have strict technical definitions. Luminol is more sensitive, it is not more specific. TMB is more specific, this is why its use is widely advocated following use of Luminol. There are different ways of doing the TMB test, haemastix can be directly applied to the stain. Since you can swab across a stain, the local concentration on your swab can be higher than on the substrate.

The advantage of Luminol is that it makes (more) visible blood stains allowing them to be imaged. The disadvantage is that it gives only a transient fluorescence. It can be sprayed over large areas, other stains can be sprayed e.g. the phenophthalein based spray used in the bathroom which gives a permanent result.

The sensitivity of TMB and Luminol are not very different, there is a small range of concentrations of blood that theoretically could give a positive Luminol and negative TMB test. It is very unlikely that all the stains that were Luminol positive and TMB negative coincidently fell in that concentration range, particularly given the strong Luminol response reported. If you look at dried diluted blood stains, they tend not to be even so you would have to hypothesise that every time the TMB swab was taken they missed the areas of concentration of blood.

If you do the two stage TMB test, you will detect a number of causes of false positive reactions to Luminol, as they will give an immediate (false) positive result prior to addition of the second reagent. So using two stage TMB can definitively identify some cases of false positive Luminol reactions. The problem is before you do the test, you do not know the result. This is a bit like the argument about testing the putative semen stain. Yes there are circumstances e.g. it being MK's boyfriend, where the result would have added nothing to the investigation. In other circumstances e.g. it being Sollecito's it would have been very useful. If the semen stain turned out to be Solecito's I would think that convincing evidence of guilt. The argument that a test might not be useful is an argument for doing no tests. The argument always has to be a priori, the rational for doing or not the test has to be made without knowledge of the result. What is worrying is that in some instances it seems that the Prosecution / Scientific police decide that a result is not useful, therefore they do not need to tell the defence the result. That a result is not useful from the prosecutorial view point does not mean it is not useful for the defence.

The TMB results, the putative semen sample, CCTV records, many of the STR typing results all seem to show a pattern of the prosecution / scientific police making a decision that some results are not useful and therefore no disclosing them to the defence or the courts.

Finally if further tests would have been useless why did Stefanoni do a series of further tests? She obviously thought they might be helpful, and where are the results of these tests, did it include a human specific blood test? Is this why she concluded that the blood stains down stairs were not human?
 
I won't commit to the print being left or right at this time. Charlie stated in Continuation Part 4 that this was a left print but I find in the 2009-02-28 testimony of Monica Napoleoni which appears to be his source the handedness is not mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in Massei, Micheli, Rudy's sentencing or any of the other documents that I have available.

The print is clearly visible on the edge of the pillowcase but there is no distinctive characteristic that would give it a right or left. To make this determination we would need the reference print of Rudy. We have a partial view of Rudy's right hand and that may be enough to include or exclude it but I haven't tried yet.

Thanks Dan. It's more likely to be the same hand (the right) for other reasons but I was hoping the print itself would tell us for sure.
 
Hey, I'm liking this Machiavelli. His argument comes straight from my posts on the subject. He doesn't understand my post but at least he's showing that he is reading them.

Machiavelli got it right that Luminol and TMB detect the presence of blood in essentially the same way with the same basic chemistry only with a different indicator. What he is still missing is that because TMB uses a 2 step process, there is a whole class of substances that will give a false positive hit with Luminol but a distinct "inconclusive" result with TMB. Many household cleaners with oxidizing agents fall into this class. Also, because the TMB reaction takes place on a swab or strip instead of in situ as with Luminol, there is another class of cases where Luminol will return a positive result and TMB will return a negative. A really old stain that has become one with the floor tile falls into this second class.

I guess what we need to see then are the results of the confirmatory tests that ...Stefanoni (says) .... she ..... didn't ...........do.
 
Thanks Dan. It's more likely to be the same hand (the right) for other reasons but I was hoping the print itself would tell us for sure.

Gee, wouldn't it have been a good idea if they had done a dna test on that bloody palm print? Cuz, like, it could have been the killer's dna? On the other hand, they found the killer's dna in their very first batch of testing and they still arrested three innocent people so what are you going to do--you can't fix stupid.
 
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I won't commit to the print being left or right at this time. Charlie stated in Continuation Part 4 that this was a left print but I find in the 2009-02-28 testimony of Monica Napoleoni which appears to be his source the handedness is not mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in Massei, Micheli, Rudy's sentencing or any of the other documents that I have available.

The print is clearly visible on the edge of the pillowcase but there is no distinctive characteristic that would give it a right or left. To make this determination we would need the reference print of Rudy. We have a partial view of Rudy's right hand and that may be enough to include or exclude it but I haven't tried yet.

If napoleoni said it was the left hand, I'm sure it was the right.
 
When you see the way they handled the jacket and Christmas-wrapped the mop it is entirely conceivable they would turn the pillow case inside out and get the wrong result.

Thats a little more nuanced than what I had in mind. I just meant that she's never right about anything, and she's full of crap. And a bad person.
 
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