Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[CoolSceptic]

It is interesting to note in the Hellmig at al. paper these two results:

- t[lag] for females is on average smaller than for males
- t[lag] is correlated with age, and lower ages also have smaller dispersion.

The absolute maximum for a person of Meredith's age is actually about 120 min. And this is for t[lag] defined as the time of fastest emptying.

All this supports even more the gastric emptying argument.

I suggest everyone have a look at the plot in figure 3 of the paper so you can see just how well constrained t[lag] is for a person with Meredith's age.

I'm trying to read up a bit more about estimation of ToD from various papers and I'm interested in these claims, but like kwill a bit frustrated that they are behind a paywall. It will probably be a while before I am next in a library which will have free access to these papers.

Would it be possible to look up the size (or range of sizes) of meals, either grams or kcals, that were used in these studies?

TIA

 

[Samson]

I'm trying to read up a bit more about estimation of ToD from various papers and I'm interested in these claims, but like kwill a bit frustrated that they are behind a paywall. It will probably be a while before I am next in a library which will have free access to these papers.

Would it be possible to look up the size (or range of sizes) of meals, either grams or kcals, that were used in these studies?

TIA

This may be a helpful extract from this dissertation on preop considerations

In contrast, the gastric emptying curve for solids is linear20,21 (Fig. 2). Gastric emptying of solid food starts approximately 1 h after a meal. Within 2 h, approximately 50% of the solid food ingested is passed to the duodenum. The gastric emptying of solids is independent of the amount of food ingested but dependent on the caloric density of the meal.

Here is the link

http://www.scielo.org.co/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0120-33472007000400004

 

[Diocletus]

Her defence does not call it "coerced statement", they call it "elaborazione fantastica".

Yes, a statement elicited in contravention of the suspect's will. The probably call it that because you aren't allowed to mention coercion in Italy or you get charged with a another crime. You can bet that her ECtHR papers talk about coercion, though.

Remember that guy Hellmann. You know, the guy who affirmed the conviction for callunnia, which was later affirmed by the supreme court? Here's what that guy said:

[the interrogation of Knox was of] obsessive length. . . , carried out during [both] day and night, by more than one person, on a young and foreign girl who at the time did not speak Italian at all well, was unaware of her own rights, did not have the assistance of an attorney (which she should have been entitled to, being at this point suspected of very serious crimes), and was moreover being assisted by an interpreter who . . . did not limit herself to translating, but induced her to force herself to remember, explaining that she [Amanda] was confused in her memories . . .

Very nice of him to hold that Italy violated Knox's human rights. This makes the ECtHR's job so simple.

 

[Diocletus]

A complaint about an alleged beating is not collateral. It's essential, if you want an investigation to take place. Otherwise there is no case.

Wrong again. The defense raised is coercion. Here's what the ECtHR says about that:

where an accused asserted that he had been incited to commit an offence, the criminal courts must carry out a careful examination of the material in the file, since for the trial to be fair within the meaning of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention, all evidence obtained as a result of police entrapment must be excluded. This was especially true where the police operation had taken place without a sufficient legal framework or adequate safeguards.

See what happened there? The accused asserted as a defense that the police had coerced/incited the crime, just like Knox did. So, you see, no collateral complaint is necessary.

And, here's what the ECtHR is going to do:

it is essential that the Court examine the procedure whereby the plea of incitement was determined in each case in order to ensure that the rights of the defence were adequately protected, in particular the right to adversarial proceedings and to equality of arms (see Edwards and Lewis v. the United Kingdom [GC], nos. 39647/98 and 40461/98, §§ 46-48, ECHR 2004‑X). For more general principles concerning the problem of entrapment see Bannikova v. Russia (no. 18757/06, §§ 33-65, 4 November 2010).

The problem here, of course, is that the Italian authorities affirmatively refused to carry out any investigation after Knox stated in the Memoriale that the cops hit her, raised coercion/incitement as a defense, and testified to this effect at trial. Moreover, the Italian authorities charged her with yet another crime for even asserting the defense of coercion. That's a big problem.

You can read all about it in PARENIUC v. THE REPUBLIC OF MOLDOVA

 

[NancyS]

Yes, a statement elicited in contravention of the suspect's will.

Remember that guy Hellmann. You know, the guy who affirmed the conviction for callunnia, which was later affirmed by the supreme court? Here's what that guy said:

[the interrogation of Knox was of] obsessive length. . . , carried out during [both] day and night, by more than one person, on a young and foreign girl who at the time did not speak Italian at all well, was unaware of her own rights, did not have the assistance of an attorney (which she should have been entitled to, being at this point suspected of very serious crimes), and was moreover being assisted by an interpreter who . . . did not limit herself to translating, but induced her to force herself to remember, explaining that she [Amanda] was confused in her memories . . .

Very nice of him to hold that Italy violated Knox's human rights. This makes the ECtHR's job so simple.

And I just find it crazy that there are so many Internet pea-brains that argue she had no right to any of this stuff.

 

[Diocletus]

It may be useful to list the major claims or allegations Amanda Knox is likely to make in her case before the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), which is a court operating as part of the Council of Europe. The judgements of the ECHR are based on the European Convention of Human Rights (which is organized into a number of Articles) and the Court's case law. The ECHR is not an appeals court but a court devoted to protecting commonly accepted rights in the Council of Europe member states.

Likely allegations (my opinion only) against the Italian Republic:
1. Denial of (or failure to provide) a lawyer to a suspect on first interrogation
(violation of Article 6)
2. Denial of (failure to inform of) the right to remain silent under interrogation
(violation of Article 6)
3. Failure to provide a neutral and fair translator during interrogation
(violation of Article 6)
4. Conducting a coercive and abusive interrogation with the intent to overcome the suspect's will and induce the suspect to make false statements
(violation of Article 6)
5. Use of abusive treatment including but not limited to slapping the suspect, and conducting an obsessive night-time interrogation to induce the suspect to make false statements by means of inhuman or degrading treatment
(violation of Article 3)
6. Failure of the authorities to conduct an effective investigation of the allegations of abuse presented to them
(violation of Article 3)
7. Validity of any one of the above allegations indicate that the victim, Amanda Knox, did not receive a fair trial the result of which was the conviction for calunnia.
(Violation of Article 6)

If the ECHR judgement accepts the validity of any one of the above allegations, it will most likely state that the victim, Amanda Knox, did not receive a fair trial for the calunnia conviction and, at a minimum, order the Italian Republic to pay some "just satisfaction" to Ms. Knox and possibly suggest other measures, such as legal reforms, to be fulfilled by the Italian Republic at the direction of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe.

The ECHR publishes handbooks - guidance documents - available online which provide discussion of the Articles of the Convention and case law. Note that for Article 6, the appropriate guidance is for the "Criminal Limb".

Good stuff, Numbers. here are three issues that I have identified in relation to some of your points above:

• The Italian courts held that Knox was entitled to her Procedural Rights only after being declared a “suspect” by the attending magistrate. In contrast, the ECtHR disregards such formalities, and will conduct its own analysis to identify the point at which Knox was under reasonable suspicion and afford to her Procedural Rights from that point forward. See Pakshayev v. Russia (“Suspect” status under the ECHR is independent of domestic-law formalities concerning designation of “suspects”).

• The Italian courts applied a subject-matter exception to allow the use of statements taken in violation of Knox’s right to counsel to prove a crime (making a false statement) other than the crime (murder) for which Knox was suspected at the time of the Procedural Rights violation. In contrast, the ECHR completely excludes the use against a defendant of any statement elicited in violation of the defendant’s Procedural Rights, and recognizes no exception that would allow such statements to be used to prove “other crimes.” See Balitskiy v. Ukraine ¶ 39 (prohibiting and criticizing use, in connection with murder charges, of statements taken without counsel following arrest on separate administrative charges).

• The Italian courts used against Knox a statement that it determined she had made “voluntarily”, after her Procedural Rights had been violated. In contrast, the ECHR prohibits the use of even “voluntary” statements following the violation of a suspect’s Procedural Rights, unless there is clear evidence that there was a knowing and intentional waiver of such rights prior to the making of the statement. Omelchenko v. Ukraine ¶ 48-49 (nullifying written waivers of right to counsel, and excluding ensuing statements obtained from person in custody, because legal assistance was never provided).

 

[JREF2010]

The sleuths at TJMK have translated Amanda's December interrogation at Capanne. It includes this gem from Mignini who is setting out particulars of the case against her before the interrogation begins:

Mignini: Then there are, in the ambit of fingerprint tests that were done, the prints despite she lives, despite she lived in that house and she was the person who remained, who had moved around the inside of the house as [7] the last one there, up until… there was one trace only on a glass, only one print of hers. And this, this makes one think that there had been, that she had removed her other prints, because it isn’t, in the opinion of the Public Prosecutor’s Office, it’s not likely that she had, that there would be only one single print of hers from… although she lived in the house. Now then. It’s these ones. Then there are the findings they are basically these ones. Now then.

He actually says it out loud: I am a stupid moron who should never have been promoted higher than filing clerk. That is my translation. Machiavelli, as Mignini's representative on planet Earth, can you offer a defence for this cretin?

I just read and saw the Mcollum brothers release, 30yrs on Death row, and it all started with the same interrogation techniques described by Raffaele and Amanda.

Theres even a video of him describing in detail what they investigators did.

I could only imagine Monica Napoleoni and Rita Ficcara, investigating, and others screaming in the planned interrogation. Then to add complete evil, the cretin shows up..

Migninni is still overly invested in this case, its obvious it is not just another case to him but an obsession and probable book deal. Migninni liked the spotlight and offered up CNN interviews and other lower level public attention getting chances for him to talk about himself.

There's so many cases of the unfilmed, unrecorded interrogations causing the problem, yet it seems no one is making any changes about it?

Has anyone in Italy raised a doubt about Perugia's police and interrogation policys? Does anyone do anything?

Or will they just continue having secret coerced interrogations in the "dark", getting people to break and tell them what they wanted to hear....which is case closed so they can award themselves for great police work?

None of the Italian Judges have questioned the interrogation part of this case very well. Hellman at least looked deeper into the Knife and Bra Clasp, but not much on the Interrogation.

My son was interrogated by a bunch of pathetic slimeballs who call themselves public servants....the same interrogation they described as Amanda and Raffale and H. Mcollum.
Nothing was done about it around here either, no one pressed charges against the "system". Its like a "govt system that can go around a rape people in the public, rape them of freedom, rape them of fairness, rape them of decency....this is the police doing it.

the interrogators? they walk away without any revenge or punishment, nothing. Like cowards in police uniforms, bullys while in the pack.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I just read and saw the Mcollum brothers release, 30yrs on Death row, and it all started with the same interrogation techniques described by Raffaele and Amanda.

Theres even a video of him describing in detail what they investigators did.

I could only imagine Monica Napoleoni and Rita Ficcara, investigating, and others screaming in the planned interrogation. Then to add complete evil, the cretin shows up..

Migninni is still overly invested in this case, its obvious it is not just another case to him but an obsession and probable book deal. Migninni liked the spotlight and offered up CNN interviews and other lower level public attention getting chances for him to talk about himself.

There's so many cases of the unfilmed, unrecorded interrogations causing the problem, yet it seems no one is making any changes about it?

Has anyone in Italy raised a doubt about Perugia's police and interrogation policys? Does anyone do anything?

Or will they just continue having secret coerced interrogations in the "dark", getting people to break and tell them what they wanted to hear....which is case closed so they can award themselves for great police work?

None of the Italian Judges have questioned the interrogation part of this case very well. Hellman at least looked deeper into the Knife and Bra Clasp, but not much on the Interrogation.

My son was interrogated by a bunch of pathetic slimeballs who call themselves public servants....the same interrogation they described as Amanda and Raffale and H. Mcollum.
Nothing was done about it around here either, no one pressed charges against the "system". Its like a "govt system that can go around a rape people in the public, rape them of freedom, rape them of fairness, rape them of decency....this is the police doing it.

the interrogators? they walk away without any revenge or punishment, nothing. Like cowards in police uniforms, bullys while in the pack.

In the case of the Central Park Five and the Mcollum brothers, would you say their ethnic origin (African American) was the motivating factor behind the similarities of the case of something else?

 

[Desert Fox]

In the case of the Central Park Five and the Mcollum brothers, would you say their ethnic origin (African American) was the motivating factor behind the similarities of the case of something else?

How about the Norfolk Four or the West Memphis Three?

 

[carbonjam72]

Originally Posted by JREF2010
I just read and saw the Mcollum brothers release, 30yrs on Death row, and it all started with the same interrogation techniques described by Raffaele and Amanda.

Theres even a video of him describing in detail what they investigators did.

I could only imagine Monica Napoleoni and Rita Ficcara, investigating, and others screaming in the planned interrogation. Then to add complete evil, the cretin shows up..

Migninni is still overly invested in this case, its obvious it is not just another case to him but an obsession and probable book deal. Migninni liked the spotlight and offered up CNN interviews and other lower level public attention getting chances for him to talk about himself.

There's so many cases of the unfilmed, unrecorded interrogations causing the problem, yet it seems no one is making any changes about it?

Has anyone in Italy raised a doubt about Perugia's police and interrogation policys? Does anyone do anything?

Or will they just continue having secret coerced interrogations in the "dark", getting people to break and tell them what they wanted to hear....which is case closed so they can award themselves for great police work?

None of the Italian Judges have questioned the interrogation part of this case very well. Hellman at least looked deeper into the Knife and Bra Clasp, but not much on the Interrogation.

My son was interrogated by a bunch of pathetic slimeballs who call themselves public servants....the same interrogation they described as Amanda and Raffale and H. Mcollum.
Nothing was done about it around here either, no one pressed charges against the "system". Its like a "govt system that can go around a rape people in the public, rape them of freedom, rape them of fairness, rape them of decency....this is the police doing it.

the interrogators? they walk away without any revenge or punishment, nothing. Like cowards in police uniforms, bullys while in the pack.

In the case of the Central Park Five and the Mcollum brothers, would you say their ethnic origin (African American) was the motivating factor behind the similarities of the case of something else?

Does this mean Couldson, that you now agree Amanda and Raf were mistreated, and coerced into making false statements? That they in fact had nothing to do with Ms Kerchr's death?

Have you finally seen the light?

Or is this just your way of distracting attention away from factors which indicate Amanda and Raf are innocent, and were railroaded by the corrupt Italian police?

 

[Numbers]

Good stuff, Numbers. here are three issues that I have identified in relation to some of your points above:

• The Italian courts held that Knox was entitled to her Procedural Rights only after being declared a “suspect” by the attending magistrate. In contrast, the ECtHR disregards such formalities, and will conduct its own analysis to identify the point at which Knox was under reasonable suspicion and afford to her Procedural Rights from that point forward. See Pakshayev v. Russia (“Suspect” status under the ECHR is independent of domestic-law formalities concerning designation of “suspects”).

• The Italian courts applied a subject-matter exception to allow the use of statements taken in violation of Knox’s right to counsel to prove a crime (making a false statement) other than the crime (murder) for which Knox was suspected at the time of the Procedural Rights violation. In contrast, the ECHR completely excludes the use against a defendant of any statement elicited in violation of the defendant’s Procedural Rights, and recognizes no exception that would allow such statements to be used to prove “other crimes.” See Balitskiy v. Ukraine ¶ 39 (prohibiting and criticizing use, in connection with murder charges, of statements taken without counsel following arrest on separate administrative charges).

• The Italian courts used against Knox a statement that it determined she had made “voluntarily”, after her Procedural Rights had been violated. In contrast, the ECHR prohibits the use of even “voluntary” statements following the violation of a suspect’s Procedural Rights, unless there is clear evidence that there was a knowing and intentional waiver of such rights prior to the making of the statement. Omelchenko v. Ukraine ¶ 48-49 (nullifying written waivers of right to counsel, and excluding ensuing statements obtained from person in custody, because legal assistance was never provided).

I agree with your points.
There are other factors relating to the legality of the police actions under Italian and ECHR law that may be part of Amanda's application to ECHR.

For example:

Did the police get proper and timely judicial permission (warrants in the US) for their phone tapping?

Amanda was detained by the police on Nov. 5. Her formal arrest date was, IIRC, 3 or 4 days later. This delay may be a violation of Italian law, including Article 13 of the Italian Constitution. (Note that ECHR suspect's rights begin with detention by police, not the formal arrest.)

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Does this mean Couldson, that you now agree Amanda and Raf were mistreated, and coerced into making false statements? That they in fact had nothing to do with Ms Kerchr's death?

Have you finally seen the light?

Or is this just your way of distracting attention away from factors which indicate Amanda and Raf are innocent, and were railroaded by the corrupt Italian police?

My main observation would be there is an enormous difference between those who have been proven in court of law as wrongly convicted with the yet uncompleted judicial process in Italy.

Secondary observation would be that those from low economic, low educational background who also happen to be from an ethnic minority are far more likely to experience police brutality and wrongful conviction, than those from a middle class background. Athough not exclusive the former appears to be the norm with the latter the exception.

 

[Diocletus]

My main observation would be there is an enormous difference between those who have been proven in court of law as wrongly convicted with the yet uncompleted judicial process in Italy.

Sorry, but Italy's time ran out long ago. The length of the proceeding is in and of itself a kind of injustice.

 

[NancyS]

My main observation would be there is an enormous difference between those who have been proven in court of law as wrongly convicted with the yet uncompleted judicial process in Italy.

And what are these enormous differences? A wrongful conviction is a wrongful conviction

Secondary observation would be that those from low economic, low educational background who also happen to be from an ethnic minority are far more likely to experience police brutality and wrongful conviction, than those from a middle class background. Athough not exclusive the former appears to be the norm with the latter the exception.

Although Amanda would be a minority in Italy and didn't speak the language, which would make her similarly vulnerable - and there seems to have been a fair amount of bias due to her being a sexually active woman

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Sorry, but Italy's time ran out long ago. The length of the proceeding is in and of itself a kind of injustice.

At least Raffaele and Amanda haven’t been sitting on Death row for the past 30 years like the Mcollum brothers!

 

[CoulsdonUK]

And what are these enormous differences? A wrongful conviction is a wrongful conviction



Although Amanda would be a minority in Italy and didn't speak the language, which would make her similarly vulnerable - and there seems to have been a fair amount of bias due to her being a sexually active woman

One was proven in a Court of law, whilst the other has not completed the judicial process.

 

[MDDVS]

I'm trying to read up a bit more about estimation of ToD from various papers and I'm interested in these claims, but like kwill a bit frustrated that they are behind a paywall. It will probably be a while before I am next in a library which will have free access to these papers.

Would it be possible to look up the size (or range of sizes) of meals, either grams or kcals, that were used in these studies?

TIA

In this particular paper the test solid meals consisted of:

- 1 egg
- 50 mL of low-fat milk
- 50 g of brown bread
- 20 g of butter

The egg was mixed with the milk and scrambled and fried in a pan.

 

[NancyS]

One was proven in a Court of law, whilst the other has not completed the judicial process.

Is that a huge difference? One of the Italian courts of law did find that it was a proven miscarriage of justice. Does that make you even question whether this is a miscarriage of justice?

Ethically, a miscarriage of justice, is a miscarriage of justice - regardless of whether it has been proven in a Court of law

 

[NancyS]

At least Raffaele and Amanda haven’t been sitting on Death row for the past 30 years like the Mcollum brothers!

And should someone accused of something they didn't do, just be grateful that they're not on death row? I find this attitude just baffling

 

[MDDVS]

At least the Mcollum brothers didn't have to endure torture like the Abu Ghraib prisioners.

At least the Abu Ghraib prisioners didn't have to endure mass extermination in Auschwitz-Birkenau.