Democracy protests in Hong Kong

[Puppycow]

It will be interesting to see how this develops.

Seems to be about how Beijing hand-picks candidates which the people may then vote for. Of course, that's not any kind of real democracy. Not much better than "democracy" in Iran, where the eligible candidates are pre-approved by some body of clerics and the Supreme Leader retains all real power in any case.

Hong Kong leader tells pro-democracy protesters to stop campaign 'immediately' after demonstrators set deadline

Hong Kong's chief executive urged pro-democracy protesters to stop their campaign "immediately" Tuesday after demonstrators gave the Chinese government a Wednesday deadline to meet their demands for political reforms.

Leung Chun-ying said that Beijing would not reverse its earlier decision to hand-pick eligible candidates to lead the former British colony, which only became part of China in 1997.

"I don’t believe that the continued use of illegal activities will compel the Chinese government to reverse the…ruling by the National People’s Congress Standing Committee," said Leung, who also rejected calls from the protesters to step down, saying "Any personnel change before the implementation of universal suffrage is achieved would only allow Hong Kong to continue to pick its leader under the Election Committee model."

 

[McHrozni]

I doubt China will allow any substantial concessions. It may get ideas into people's heads all over China. They will prefer repression, although I doubt it will be anywhere near Tianmen, 1989.

McHrozni

 

[manofthesea]

I think they have it a lot better than some current democratic societies. In Egypt (one of our top allies, at least in the mideast) they labeled protesters as terrorists and handed out death sentences. Then elected an army general president.
I was in Hong Kong 30 plus years ago and was amazed at their prosperity.
Anthony Bourdain has a new episode of his show that shows that Shanghai is much nicer than NYC.
They got it pretty good.

 

[McHrozni]

I think they have it a lot better than some current democratic societies. In Egypt (one of our top allies, at least in the mideast) they labeled protesters as terrorists and handed out death sentences. Then elected an army general president.
I was in Hong Kong 30 plus years ago and was amazed at their prosperity.
Anthony Bourdain has a new episode of his show that shows that Shanghai is much nicer than NYC.
They got it pretty good.

I wouldn't put Egypt as "democratic". They're flirting with democracy, nothing more.

You're mistaking economic prosperity and democracy though. One can, and often does, exist without the other. South Korea was an undemocratic fascist state until late 1980s or so. It became quite prosperous during that period. Eventually any regime with a prosperous population will have to choose between opening up and democratizing or sacrificing economic prosperity for the sake of maintaining power - and China appears to be approaching that threshold. Unfortunately most opt for the second option, to sacrifice prosperity for the sake of preserving power. It remains to be seen how China will choose.

McHrozni

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I think they have it a lot better than some current democratic societies. In Egypt (one of our top allies, at least in the mideast) they labeled protesters as terrorists and handed out death sentences. Then elected an army general president.
I was in Hong Kong 30 plus years ago and was amazed at their prosperity.
Anthony Bourdain has a new episode of his show that shows that Shanghai is much nicer than NYC.
They got it pretty good.

"Hong Kong 30 plus years ago" was a British Colony. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[angrysoba]

"Hong Kong 30 plus years ago" was a British Colony.

Ah, the good old days, when it was ruled by a democracy!

 

[Belgian thought]

Ah, the good old days, when it was ruled by a democracy!

Yes, and given the vote just as we were leaving

 

[dudalb]

I wouldn't put Egypt as "democratic". They're flirting with democracy, nothing more.

You're mistaking economic prosperity and democracy though. One can, and often does, exist without the other. South Korea was an undemocratic fascist state until late 1980s or so. It became quite prosperous during that period. Eventually any regime with a prosperous population will have to choose between opening up and democratizing or sacrificing economic prosperity for the sake of maintaining power - and China appears to be approaching that threshold. Unfortunately most opt for the second option, to sacrifice prosperity for the sake of preserving power. It remains to be seen how China will choose.

McHrozni

What happens is that when people get proseprous, they seem naturally to want more inidvidual freedom.
China is going to face the same problems the Soviet Union faced. CHina will take longer to get theri because they have handled their economy much better (the Chinese Govnerment has embraced a market economy in a way the Soviets never really did) but eventually they will face a massive demand for more freedom and democracy. The Hong Kong protests might be the first soundings.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

What happens is that when people get proseprous, they seem naturally to want more inidvidual freedom.
China is going to face the same problems the Soviet Union faced. CHina will take longer to get theri because they have handled their economy much better (the Chinese Govnerment has embraced a market economy in a way the Soviets never really did) but eventually they will face a massive demand for more freedom and democracy. The Hong Kong protests might be the first soundings.

How soon we forget: Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989^WP

 

[McHrozni]

What happens is that when people get proseprous, they seem naturally to want more inidvidual freedom.
China is going to face the same problems the Soviet Union faced. CHina will take longer to get theri because they have handled their economy much better (the Chinese Govnerment has embraced a market economy in a way the Soviets never really did) but eventually they will face a massive demand for more freedom and democracy. The Hong Kong protests might be the first soundings.

Well, first in 25 years maybe, although I suspect there were smaller calls all along. All "kindly" suppressed and those responsible "reeducated", of course. But yes, as people get more prosperous, they will want more than mere basic wealth.

McHrozni

 

[Beerina]

I wouldn't put Egypt as "democratic". They're flirting with democracy, nothing more.

You're mistaking economic prosperity and democracy though. One can, and often does, exist without the other. South Korea was an undemocratic fascist state until late 1980s or so. It became quite prosperous during that period. Eventually any regime with a prosperous population will have to choose between opening up and democratizing or sacrificing economic prosperity for the sake of maintaining power - and China appears to be approaching that threshold. Unfortunately most opt for the second option, to sacrifice prosperity for the sake of preserving power. It remains to be seen how China will choose.

McHrozni

I don't know this is necessarily the case. There are more freedoms than just freedom of speech, and voting. The power of an economy is tied to economic freedoms, and has little to do with freedom of speech.

I sometimes joke (though not so much anymore) that what good is freedom of speech if every other freedom is prescribed in detail by busybodies in government?

Heck, one way to keep China down would be to encourage freedom of speech, and that thence to voting, with attendant massive overspending and over-regulation, hoping they leap America-as-economic-pinnacle and quantum tunnel directly to Europe-on-the-decline.

 

[McHrozni]

I don't know this is necessarily the case. There are more freedoms than just freedom of speech, and voting. The power of an economy is tied to economic freedoms, and has little to do with freedom of speech.

Redress of grievances, right to a just and speedy trial, protection against unreasonable search and seizure, protection from abuse of authority and possibly others are all necessary if the above - especially voting - are to be of any value whatsoever.
Economic freedom to a sufficient extent is necessary for a democracy to function, but it is not enough by itself.

Heck, one way to keep China down would be to encourage freedom of speech, and that thence to voting, with attendant massive overspending and over-regulation, hoping they leap America-as-economic-pinnacle and quantum tunnel directly to Europe-on-the-decline.

With their levels of corruption, I really don't see a slow change to democracy. It will either be quick and sudden (like it is hopefully happening in Ukraine now), or it won't happen at all. Too many powerful people stand to loose too much to gain too little.

McHrozni

 

[TheRealnz]

I heard a lot of the protestors are funded by the US NGO called the National Democratic Institute.
One of the heads even meets with US representatives in the US embassy weekly.

I have a sad feeling these kids who rightfully want freedom and self rule are being used as pawns by the US (much like the Arab spring and the Orange Revolution) to spread discourse in China and to seek to destablize it.

 

[LSSBB]

I heard a lot of the protestors are funded by the US NGO called the National Democratic Institute.
One of the heads even meets with US representatives in the US embassy weekly.

I have a sad feeling these kids who rightfully want freedom and self rule are being used as pawns by the US (much like the Arab spring and the Orange Revolution) to spread discourse in China and to seek to destablize it.

I highly doubt the U. S. is seeking to destabilize it's second largest trading partner.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I heard a lot of the protestors are funded by the US NGO called the National Democratic Institute.
One of the heads even meets with US representatives in the US embassy weekly.

I have a sad feeling these kids who rightfully want freedom and self rule are being used as pawns by the US (much like the Arab spring and the Orange Revolution) to spread discourse in China and to seek to destablize it.

If the USA were really that clever, it would rule the World.

 

[Puppycow]

I heard a lot of the protestors are funded by the US NGO called the National Democratic Institute.
One of the heads even meets with US representatives in the US embassy weekly.

I have a sad feeling these kids who rightfully want freedom and self rule are being used as pawns by the US (much like the Arab spring and the Orange Revolution) to spread discourse in China and to seek to destablize it.

What's wrong with spreading discourse?

More on the protesters:

The World’s Politest Protesters

The protest movement that has sprung to life in Hong Kong now represents the most serious challenge to Beijing’s authority since the Tiananmen protests of 1989. Beijing is obviously worried: Earlier this week it banned the photo-sharing site Instagram and ramped up censorship on the popular Chinese social media site Sina Weibo to unprecedented levels.

But while the threat to Beijing’s power is real, the danger isn’t evident on Hong Kong streets: Rather than presenting scenes of smashed shops or violent confrontations with the police—the sort of images we have grown accustomed to in Cairo, Ukraine, and other sites of popular protests against oppressive regimes—the photos from central Hong Kong show smiling students sitting around doing their homework, passing out donations of food, and meticulously picking up litter—even sorting out the recyclables. What, then, is different about these Hong Kong demonstrators? And how might their almost exaggerated politeness help them against the notoriously severe Chinese Communist Party?

The answers to these questions can be found in the appropriately titled “Manual of Disobedience.” Published online several days before the Occupy Central campaign was set to begin, the document (written in Chinese and English) is part how-to guide and part philosophical mission statement. It details the movement’s tactics, the rules for nonviolent protest, the legal codes that may be violated, and the exact procedure to follow should someone be arrested. It also implores protesters to “avoid physical confrontation, but also to avoid developing hatred in [their] heart,” and explains that the protests must be a model of the values that they are striving to see in their society, namely “equality, tolerance, love, and care.” The protesters understand that these values will not only help win over sympathizers, but lay bare the illegitimacy of the regime if it moves against them with excessive force. These aren’t youthful idealists; these are savvy political operators who understand the secrets of successful nonviolent resistance.

Here's a profile of the 17-year-old student leader, Joshua Wong:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/01/joshua-wong-teenager-public-face-hong-kong-protests

Chinese state media have attacked Scholarism as extremists and a pro-Beijing Hong Kong-based paper claimed that “US forces” had worked to cultivate Wong as a “political superstar” – accusations Wong has dismissed.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

The Manual of Disobedience mentioned above:
http://oclphkenglish.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/manual-of-disobedience/

 

[Puppycow]

The Manual of Disobedience mentioned above:
http://oclphkenglish.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/manual-of-disobedience/

Interesting document. I think they are approaching this the right way. I don't know if it will work or not, but I'm rooting for them.

 

[3point14]

Hong Kong has possibly the classiest protestors in the world, from what I can tell.

 

[dudalb]

I heard a lot of the protestors are funded by the US NGO called the National Democratic Institute.
One of the heads even meets with US representatives in the US embassy weekly.

I have a sad feeling these kids who rightfully want freedom and self rule are being used as pawns by the US (much like the Arab spring and the Orange Revolution) to spread discourse in China and to seek to destablize it.

Take it to Conspiracy Theories, guy.