Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend

[Ampulla of Vater]

It's sweden, didn't you know we all walk around naked all the time?

but no, I usually keep whatever status I have (pyjamas or nothing or somewhere in between)

Isn't it cold in Sweden? I guess you guys have some significant shrinkage factor going on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DoARSlv-HU

 

[icerat]

Isn't it cold in Sweden? I guess you guys have some significant shrinkage factor going on!

a bit off topic but one of my biggest surprises moving to Sweden from Australia was discovering that inside is often warmer than Australia. In Brisbane where I'm from if it's 4C outside, it's 4C inside. In Sweden if it's -20C outside, it's still 22C inside.

 

[Colin from France]

Even on here you can see how difficult it is if not impossible to choose between the two versions there's just not enough evidence one way or the other regardless of what our instincts tell us, maybe it's possible that the judge went through the same situation, she thrashed it out and coudn't decide either, is that the reason why she's taken the route she has, is OP going to get a big surprise and get the fifthteen years plus the gun charge ?

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Even on here you can see how difficult it is if not impossible to choose between the two versions there's just not enough evidence one way or the other regardless of what our instincts tell us, maybe it's possible that the judge went through the same situation, she thrashed it out and coudn't decide either, is that the reason why she's taken the route she has, is OP going to get a big surprise and get the fifthteen years plus the gun charge ?

Do you agree there is enough evidence for culpable homicide though?

 

[Samson]

Do you agree there is enough evidence for culpable homicide though?

Yes.
The question becomes one for policy makers.

IF his story is true, does society benefit with incarceration? The likelihood of him reoffending with guns plummets to zero, so a deterrent sentence is necessary. But will jailing him make people leave their guns in safety mode when threatened as a result? The Republic owns this problem just as the USA does with mass shootings.
Incidentally his family is very wealthy and Reeva's poor, and they certainly deserve money, but they are claiming a very reasonable 250k. I would describe them as ever dignified.

 

[newyorkguy]

Do you agree there is enough evidence for culpable homicide though?

I know you didn't ask me but I think there's enough evidence to justify the culpable homicide conviction. I say this based on another case in South Africa (Naidoo) in which the charge of culpable murder was defined:

[T]he perpetrator’s culpable failure to foresee the possibility of death...a failure to do what could and should have been done to prevent the occurrence of death, that is the rationale for the conviction of culpable homicide

.

This seems to describe what Oscar Pitorius did. Fired into a locked bathroom without really knowing who was in there or why there were in there and his failing to do "what could and should have been done to prevent the occurrence of death." Namely call police and then either leave the house temporarily or seek to ascertain who WAS in the bathroom BEFORE killing them.

Instead he chose to fire four times into a bathroom and THEN find out who they were. After he had killed them. Then he discovered he had killed his girlfriend and, or so he maintains, without intending to.

That seems to pretty much fit the definition of culpable murder or what New York courts call negligent manslaughter. Because there was another person in the apartment, he failed to take reasonable steps to protect them from being shot by accident; i.e. asking the person in the bathroom to identify themselves.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Yes.
The question becomes one for policy makers.

IF his story is true, does society benefit with incarceration? The likelihood of him reoffending with guns plummets to zero, so a deterrent sentence is necessary. But will jailing him make people leave their guns in safety mode when threatened as a result? The Republic owns this problem just as the USA does with mass shootings.
Incidentally his family is very wealthy and Reeva's poor, and they certainly deserve money, but they are claiming a very reasonable 250k. I would describe them as ever dignified.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Even if his story is true, he has still been proven to be a trigger-happy, easily-startled human. Sometimes incarceration is more of a punishment for bad behavior/judgment than a deterrent or societal concern.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I know you didn't ask me but I think there's enough evidence to justify the culpable homicide conviction. I say this based on another case in South Africa (Naidoo) in which the charge of culpable murder was defined:

.

This seems to describe what Oscar Pitorius did. Fired into a locked bathroom without really knowing who was in there or why there were in there and his failing to do "what could and should have been done to prevent the occurrence of death." Namely call police and then either leave the house temporarily or seek to ascertain who WAS in the bathroom BEFORE killing them.

Instead he chose to fire four times into a bathroom and THEN find out who they were. After he had killed them. Then he discovered he had killed his girlfriend and, or so he maintains, without intending to.

That seems to pretty much fit the definition of culpable murder or what New York courts call negligent manslaughter. Because there was another person in the apartment, he failed to take reasonable steps to protect them from being shot by accident; i.e. asking the person in the bathroom to identify themselves.

Yes, I agree. I do hope he gets 15 years though. I really do not feel any empathy or sympathy for him, and I did in the beginning. Him testifying for so many days revealed a rather unlikeable, self-serving twit.

 

[katy_did]

a bit off topic but one of my biggest surprises moving to Sweden from Australia was discovering that inside is often warmer than Australia. In Brisbane where I'm from if it's 4C outside, it's 4C inside. In Sweden if it's -20C outside, it's still 22C inside.

Found the same thing moving to the UK. In Melbourne we used to sit around the house in coats, scarves and gloves in winter; in the UK you'd get away with shorts and T-shirt if you wanted. Still feels a bit weird to me, kind of like you're cheating the elements.

I hear it's pretty warm in South Africa though. Now I think about it, surprised Pistorius didn't have air-conditioning.

 

[Samson]

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Even if his story is true, he has still been proven to be a trigger-happy, easily-startled human. Sometimes incarceration is more of a punishment for bad behavior/judgment than a deterrent or societal concern.

I made the statement with two assumptions, that he has the guns taken from him, and he will have learned the hard way. But since I have no interest in guns I may be missing that they are highly addictive.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I made the statement with two assumptions, that he has the guns taken from him, and he will have learned the hard way. But since I have no interest in guns I may be missing that they are highly addictive.

I don't think it matters whether or not you have an interest in guns. The testimony revealed Oscar has a bit of an obsession with them. That's what is concerning. But, if like you stated, they were to mandate no guns, that would be different. I'd still like to see him get 15 years though. He'd probably do less anyway. For one thing, I think it is necessary to not cause pushback from the verdict.

 

[newyorkguy]

I don't think it matters whether or not you have an interest in guns. The testimony revealed Oscar has a bit of an obsession with them. That's what is concerning. But, if like you stated, they were to mandate no guns, that would be different. I'd still like to see him get 15 years though. He'd probably do less anyway. For one thing, I think it is necessary to not cause pushback from the verdict.

I think he should have to pay a price for negligently killing someone. He may not ever act as recklessly again, his experience may well serve to deter others, he still needs to serve some prison time for killing Reeva Steenkamp. The sentence should provide some justice for the death of Reeva Steenkamp.

I think the sentence should be in the upper range of what the guidelines call for to reflect the reality that, it is NOT CLEAR that this was not a deliberate act. He didn't avoid conviction on second degree murder (or the SA equivalent) because the evidence showed he was not guilty of that offense. He was not convicted of second degree murder because the evidence was not adequate. I think the sentence should reflect that ambiguity.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Really that is an idiotic thing to say. Messrs Fairbairn and Sykes would like a word with you.

You mean two guys that apparently had to team up together to "invent" a knife?

 

[MontagK505]

Yes.
The question becomes one for policy makers.

IF his story is true, does society benefit with incarceration? The likelihood of him reoffending with guns plummets to zero, so a deterrent sentence is necessary. But will jailing him make people leave their guns in safety mode when threatened as a result? The Republic owns this problem just as the USA does with mass shootings.
Incidentally his family is very wealthy and Reeva's poor, and they certainly deserve money, but they are claiming a very reasonable 250k. I would describe them as ever dignified.

Giving him a light sentence would tend to increase contempt for the SA justice system. The issue isn't his re-offending, but the fact that the judge has found him guilty of culpable homicide, which I would imagine is a serious crime in SA.

 

[Octavo]

Just curious, how often do you actually hit a panic button, and how often does that result in the discovery of a real threat?

I've only ever hit the panic button accidentally, although there have been two occasions where I was ready with it in case the noise in the garden turned out to be robbers.

If Oscar is waving his cannon around her first instinct would be to get out of his line of fire.

We're still talking about his firearm here, right?

Burglars in South Africa can get into your house, steal your stuff and be out in minutes. It is folly to believe that a panic button will save your life in a intrusion situation.

People are killed in this country for as little as a cell phone. Be responsible for your own safety, just do it within the ambit of the law.

I am not saying that one shouldn't have security with armed response and a panic button, just don't place your trust in that alone.

Yes, the panic button is only really useful if you can ensure a barrier between yourself and the threat until armed response arrives (or when you need fire/ambulance services)

 

[Colin from France]

If we "accept" that he killed Reeva on purpose in a fit of rage based on jealousy, can that be considered a crime of passion ? If so woudn't the possible 15 years be somewhat equal to a sentence for this type of crime ?

 

[Camillus]

Fair point. Please don't tell them where to find me. But I note that both men derived much of their training and experience as police officers in Shanghai and later in World War II combat. What I meant was that the UK doesn't have anything like the American gun culture that would promote civilian firearms expertise. If I recall correctly, the UK Olympic shooting team was required at one time to practice abroad because firearms restrictions in the UK were so onerous.

It's actually not difficult to own a firearm in the UK. The significant restrictions are on handguns and you can't own high capacity rifles or shotguns but otherwise it's fairly simple to get a license. It was the pistol shooters who had to train overseas, the rifle team had no such problems.

However you are right in that ownership of guns in the UK for self-defence is practically non-existent.

 

[Samson]

Giving him a light sentence would tend to increase contempt for the SA justice system. The issue isn't his re-offending, but the fact that the judge has found him guilty of culpable homicide, which I would imagine is a serious crime in SA.

I realise I am soft on accidental crime, and accidents generally.
Medical, driving, sins of omission, assuming it is so. The intense suffering of the perpetrator atones, and if my progeny were killed in similar circumstance, and obviously it is necessary to be satisfied this is so, I would forgive and grieve communally.
I hate medical malpractice actions by families. I see it time after time. Yes they are well paid to deliver professional service, but that is how I see it. Maybe forgive but never forget.

 

[Colin from France]

I made the statement with two assumptions, that he has the guns taken from him, and he will have learned the hard way. But since I have no interest in guns I may be missing that they are highly addictive.

He would throw a tantrum if you did that !

 

[etcetera]

It's actually not difficult to own a firearm in the UK. The significant restrictions are on handguns and you can't own high capacity rifles or shotguns but otherwise it's fairly simple to get a license. It was the pistol shooters who had to train overseas, the rifle team had no such problems.

However you are right in that ownership of guns in the UK for self-defence is practically non-existent.

BIB A bit more than "significant restrictions", methinks! Private ownership of handguns was barred in the UK, (except for Northern Ireland for obvious reasons), consequent to the Dunblane school kid massacre at the end of the 90s of the type now sadly only too fashionable in the US. Also barred is applying for any firearm's license giving reasons of self-defence (again except in NI and for the same obvious reasons).

Hi and hope not to upset by chipping in. I'm a long term lurker newly posting so unaware if there are any unwritten rules about this.