Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[JREF2010]

Read Raffaele's book. Ooops, you cannot. It is effectively banned in the UK.

If this is true, its so odd....

they prevent the real persons version, but allow trashloids and garbage media to print anything they want. I find that really strange as a society/goverment.

 

[carbonjam72]

It's a tragedy for Raffaele, he's likely to go to prison for something he didn't do and people barely know his name - and there is nothing that he can say or do to defend himself, without his every utterance being twisted to make a story about Amanda. The Amanda character of the 'story' doesn't even bare any real resemblance to the real Amanda, but instead continues to be obsessed with the drug fuelled, sexually depraved, femme fatale - able to control any man with a wink and a flash of some side boob.

'Side boob'? You're incorrigible.

 

[carbonjam72]

If this is true, its so odd....

they prevent the real persons version, but allow trashloids and garbage media to print anything they want. I find that really strange as a society/goverment.

Supposedly liable laws protect the truth. In practice, it seems to be having the opposite effect in both Italy and the UK.

The cost, inconvenience, and danger of legal cases, (and in Italy the threat of criminal cases), seems to have a distorting effect on the societies and cultures.

The criminals run free, slandering to their hearts content, the innocent suffer.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

You intend this as snarky, aimed at "Amanda's supporters", yet in a roundhouse way, you've summarized Raffaele's position as well.
The way Raffaele phrases it is, "What's all this got to do with me?" Indeed, even the "separation" of the defences as seen in the differing appeals' documents reflects this.

Raffale (through Bongiorno in the appeal to Cassazione) says in effect: "Amanda is accused of not being at my apartment when she replies to Lumumba's SMS message. That's all well and good, and I know it's not true. But, even if it is - what's that got to do with me?"

It appears, then, that you can include Raffaele in your post above, that although he has served exactly the same number of days in prison for a crime he did not commit, that this is really about one person. This is so much about one person, that during Bongiorno's closing in Sept 2011, she mentioned Amanda as much as she mentioned her own client....

Read Raffaele's book. Ooops, you cannot. It is effectively banned in the UK.

In it you will find the real reason why, for instance, Raffaele did not testify at either of the trials, except for spontaneous statements. It's because nobody asked. In this forum we've been around this block dozens of times with Machiavelli. No one wanted to know his story.

What is the height of irony in your post, which betrays your opions on this case, is that once again something that was used against Amanda and Raffaele at trial and for 7 years on-line - ignoring Raffaele and obsessing about Amanda - is now blamed on their supporters!

Snarky. Sorry you are flat out wrong.

I fail to see how pointing out accurately that many posts here do not include Raffaele name for whatever reason is somehow my fault. I tend to use Raffaele and Amanda whenever I post although not exclusively, it’s not difficult

 

[Bill Williams]

Read Raffaele's book. Ooops, you cannot. It is effectively banned in the UK.

If this is true, its so odd....

they prevent the real persons version, but allow trashloids and garbage media to print anything they want. I find that really strange as a society/goverment.

Technically, it is a self-banning. It is not published in the U.K. to avoid inevitable lawsuits, because of the differing libel laws there.

Perhaps by Friday it can be published in Scotland!

 

[Bill Williams]

Snarky. Sorry you are flat out wrong.

I fail to see how pointing out accurately that many posts here do not include Raffaele name for whatever reason is somehow my fault. I tend to use Raffaele and Amanda whenever I post although not exclusively, it’s not difficult

I then ask you to point out a post of mine where I have not done exactly as you.

One thing I do agree with you, though. "I fail to see...."

 

[Dan O.]

A search of this forum where a post by CoulsdonUK included the name "Amanda" returned 275 results (The limit of the search) beginning in October 2011. The same search with the name "Raffaele" returned 275 results begining in September 2011. Pretty much an insignificant difference.

But how does this tally with CoulsdonUK's remeberence of the forgotten one? That search went all the way back to May 2010 and only found 258 posts. Yes, ColsdonUK remembers Meredith. Just not very much.

 

[Desert Fox]

A search of this forum where a post by CoulsdonUK included the name "Amanda" returned 275 results (The limit of the search) beginning in October 2011. The same search with the name "Raffaele" returned 275 results begining in September 2011. Pretty much an insignificant difference.

But how does this tally with CoulsdonUK's remeberence of the forgotten one? That search went all the way back to May 2010 and only found 258 posts. Yes, ColsdonUK remembers Meredith. Just not very much.

I will be blunt here. . . .I worry more about the living than mourn the dead.

 

[Grinder]

It is not so much arguing that it is hard and fast but giving an avenue which the Italian court system can do to get rid of a hot potato. This ISC seems to play their own game, for example how they excused pedophilia based on amorous intent.

You think the Italians will put all cases that ran over 6 yeras at risk for this one case? The ECHR have been complaining for years and years about the practice.

It is usually pro forma. But can you name another case of an American convicted on such suspect evidence? Can you name another case where the majority of Americans probably think that defendant innocent?

This is not just another run of the mill pro forma case. Therefore it may not likely be another pro forma extradition process.

The post was in response to someone saying extradition is a political act. I don't recall even one case that became publicly political, do you? As steted it is almost always pro forma.

Make a bet that if it was an Italian convicted or wanted for a crime in the US under similar circumstances, they would never extradite him or her.

Any takers?

Sure DF you must have an example. Please provide it.

Raffaele is a Southern Italian, which makes him an outsider in Perugia - although I think he's mainly collateral damage in the initial attempt to burn the witch.

Who do you think lit the match and when?

Grinder

I would not use the word sanguine. However, I do believe there will be a political decision taken by the State Department in reaction to an “apparent spontaneous groundswell of American public opinion orchestrated by a small group of unconnected individuals”. Raffaele will go to prison, Amanda will publicly state she will continue the fight for his freedom and to clear her name then quietly return to her life.

Will you accept the US jurisdiction or not? Please answer straightforwardly. Clearly only Amanda will be impacted by extradition directly so the discussion centers around her.

How would you suggest she organize her life after the US refuses extradition? Should she marry before Raf gets out (does using Raf count?)?

I am sure Raffaele’s name will be prominent for a page or so then quietly revert to normal service; it appears for many here this is all about one person.

Go to PMF or TJMK and see how much they concentrate on Amanda. Note how little they are concerned about the only person that definitely was in attendance when Meredith was murdered.

Yea I guess you could be right about my confusion, so whenever I just see Amanda’s name in a post I should read it as “Raffaele and Amanda” or “Amanda and Raffaele”, extraordinary!

If people here in Seattle or the US are more concerned about Amanda, so what?

This story has always been about Amanda. She was targeted because she was a pretty young girl. The first thing the police did when she was arrested, was take nude keepsake pictures of her vagina. Mignini, the police, the tabloids and media, the civil attorneys - they all exploited Amanda because of her youth, naiveté, beauty, and convenience.

You really believe this? When did they decide on this? Did they have a meeting? Who attended this meeting? Watch out or a certain poster will be asking you for copies of those pictures.

What's astounding to me, is that you don't blame Mignini for Meredith's death, by first failing to arrest and prosecute Rudy Guede for his burglaries in Perugia, and second for (Perugians) calling the Milan police and getting Rudy released and sent back to Perugia five days before he killed Meredith.

There you go again. Do you have cites for the "burglaries" and that the Perugians called Milan and not the other way around?

If in fact they had more than possession of stolen merchandise on him, do you have a idea what normal procedure would be in Italy?

Curatolo had a three year old heroin dealing charge and wasn't in jail. CT didn't even bother to tell the police he had identified his burglar, perhaps because he knew they never do anything about it. Or he didn't really do so.

I think of it kind of this way. Raff was convicted of the exact same crime as Amanda but assume that Amanda had met another young man, that young man would have been convicted in Raff's place.

No he wasn't.

If this is true, its so odd....

they prevent the real persons version, but allow trashloids and garbage media to print anything they want. I find that really strange as a society/goverment.

Proof that the other books are clearly viewed as fiction

Snarky. Sorry you are flat out wrong.

I fail to see how pointing out accurately that many posts here do not include Raffaele name for whatever reason is somehow my fault. I tend to use Raffaele and Amanda whenever I post although not exclusively, it’s not difficult

You don't see many issues related to this case that only fit one or the other? How should Amanda's potential extradition be central to Raf or even relkate to him?

When discussing his finances focussing on the proerty and should we mention Amanda?

 

[Desert Fox]

You think the Italians will put all cases that ran over 6 yeras at risk for this one case? The ECHR have been complaining for years and years about the practice.

In the case with the much older man and the twelve or thirteen year old, they put every case of pedophilia at risk. What is the difference here?

Sure DF you must have an example. Please provide it.

At best, the case against Amanda and Raff is questionable. What you are asking to provide a case where the evidence is questionable, which are reasonable rare, which involves extradition to the United States.

Here is a case where Italy refused extradition to the United States even though the state of Florida assured Italy that they would not seek the Death Penalty however.
[I did a Google search and filtered all dated to before 2005]

No he wasn't.

he was convicted of sexual assault and murder. She had an added stupid charge but the main charges were the same. My argument is that any boyfriend she had would very likely have been caught in the same net. Amanda always was the main target and he is collateral damage.

 

[Grinder]

In the case with the much older man and the twelve or thirteen year old, they put every case of pedophilia at risk. What is the difference here?

Please explain how it put all cases of pedophilia at risk. IIRC the ISC sent it back to the appeal level because of a technical aspect. The appeals hadn't considered something but they didn't exonerate him. The ISC that is.

At best, the case against Amanda and Raff is questionable. What you are asking to provide a case where the evidence is questionable, which are reasonable rare, which involves extradition to the United States.

Here is a case where Italy refused extradition to the United States even though the state of Florida assured Italy that they would not seek the Death Penalty however.
[I did a Google search and filtered all dated to before 2005]

Not at all relevant.

Three Italian judges were using a Miami courtroom on
Friday to hold an unusual transatlantic murder trial in a deal to keep an
Italian citizen accused of killing a U.S. tax collector from facing the death
penalty.

The trial, which began in Italy in October 1997 and is to end there next month,
was moved to Miami because the murder victim's widow was too ill to travel.

But the defendant, Pietro Venezia, remained in jail in Italy, which for four
years has refused to extradite him to the United States because Italy strongly
protests the use of the death penalty
​

You maintain bad prosecutions happen all the time. Give one bad prosecution where the Italians wouldn't extradite.

Give one non capital crime where the Italians wouldn't extradite.

he was convicted of sexual assault and murder. She had an added stupid charge but the main charges were the same. My argument is that any boyfriend she had would very likely have been caught in the same net. Amanda always was the main target and he is collateral damage.

Any boy friend that gave the interview to Kate Mansey, carried a knife to the police station, couldn't remember if they had sex etc. then sure maybe. Oh and being the alibi for the suspect.

The added stupid charge is one of the lynch-pins of the case and made the alibi a lie. I have argued that the "confession" needs to be undone by the defense by going after the police chief et al. but at the time of charging that hadn't been done.

As for her being the main target, exactly what does that mean and how did manifest? He was arrested the same night. Is it possible they thought both were involved, saw Raf as a smart ass but able to speak Italian and knew the system and therefore figured she would spill the beans (truth) and went after her2?

 

[Desert Fox]

The appeals hadn't considered something but they didn't exonerate him. The ISC that is.

The lower courts did not consider the amorous nature of the relationship between a sixty year old man and an eleven year old girl? They directed lower courts that they need to consider this.

This means that in effect every cases where there is pedophilia and there is an amorous nature, they have to be reconsidered. This does not effectively make every pedophilia case impossible to try?

At best, the case against Amanda and Raff is questionable. What you are asking to provide a case where the evidence is questionable, which are reasonable rare, which involves extradition to the United States.

Not at all relevant.

Actually it is very relevant because you have not considered the statistics.
Murder rate in Italy is 0.9 per 100,000 while in the U.S. it is 4.7 per 100,000.
The US Murder rate is heavily divided into racial groups and by sex.
You are going to likely get very few murders in the last 20 or so years by Italian visitors to the US. Of those, many will be stopped before they get out the country. A court case which the US requests extradition is likely to be an extra solid case as well.

The statistical is that likely there has not been a case of requested extradition by the US to Italy where the case is questionable at best.

Three Italian judges were using a Miami courtroom on
Friday to hold an unusual transatlantic murder trial in a deal to keep an
Italian citizen accused of killing a U.S. tax collector from facing the death
penalty.

The trial, which began in Italy in October 1997 and is to end there next month,
was moved to Miami because the murder victim's widow was too ill to travel.

But the defendant, Pietro Venezia, remained in jail in Italy, which for four
years has refused to extradite him to the United States because Italy strongly
protests the use of the death penalty
​

You maintain bad prosecutions happen all the time. Give one bad prosecution where the Italians wouldn't extradite.

Of murder cases, I argue that between five and ten percent of cases are wrongful convictions. When you are talking about an extremely small number of murders and the likely extra scrutiny, it has probably not come up.

On the actual case I quoted, the argument is that the Italian legal system was not satisfied with just promising that the death penalty would not be sought but that Florida would need to jump through hoops.

There have been also been multiple cases where US court awards one parent custody, an Italian parent runs to Italy to with the child, and the Italian Supreme Court states "screw you" to US courts. Look up Jeff Koons / Ilona Staller for example.

Any boy friend that gave the interview to Kate Mansey, carried a knife to the police station, couldn't remember if they had sex etc. then sure maybe. Oh and being the alibi for the suspect.

The added stupid charge is one of the lynch-pins of the case and made the alibi a lie. I have argued that the "confession" needs to be undone by the defense by going after the police chief et al. but at the time of charging that hadn't been done.

As for her being the main target, exactly what does that mean and how did manifest? He was arrested the same night. Is it possible they thought both were involved, saw Raf as a smart ass but able to speak Italian and knew the system and therefore figured she would spill the beans (truth) and went after her2?

I think others have already shown that your arguments about him not remember sex are off base. Arguing that again does not seem real honest. Otherwise, there is always something odd which can be used as "evidence" of guilt.

You and I also both know that accusations of misconduct by the Italian police are basically forbidden. Your lawyers are not going to go there because they don't want to be in jail.

Most of the character assassinations. Strike that. Instead, I would argue that all of the character assassinations have been against Amanda. If nothing else, that argues clearly that the case was always focused on her and not him. It is like the West Memphis Three case in that really the case was all about Damian and sweet deals were offered to his co-defendants to roll over on him.

 

[Grinder]

The lower courts did not consider the amorous nature of the relationship between a sixty year old man and an eleven year old girl? They directed lower courts that they need to consider this.

This means that in effect every cases where there is pedophilia and there is an amorous nature, they have to be reconsidered. This does not effectively make every pedophilia case impossible to try?

Not reconsider but consider. I think it is wrong but it doesn't mean every case of pedophilia is undone. It means nothing in relationship to the ISC saying that 6 years is the max, period.

Actually it is very relevant because you have not considered the statistics.
Murder rate in Italy is 0.9 per 100,000 while in the U.S. it is 4.7 per 100,000.
The US Murder rate is heavily divided into racial groups and by sex.
You are going to likely get very few murders in the last 20 or so years by Italian visitors to the US. Of those, many will be stopped before they get out the country. A court case which the US requests extradition is likely to be an extra solid case as well.

The statistical is that likely there has not been a case of requested extradition by the US to Italy where the case is questionable at best.

Should I go back and find where you said that the Italians had refused to extradite? The US asks for extradition on cases that haven't even been tried and there is no proof or need for them to be "extra solid". If a prosecutor or Grand Jury indites a person abroad extradition will be requested in most very case.

Make a bet that if it was an Italian convicted or wanted for a crime in the US under similar circumstances, they would never extradite him or her.

Any takers?

Yes, I'll take the bet.

Of murder cases, I argue that between five and ten percent of cases are wrongful convictions. When you are talking about an extremely small number of murders and the likely extra scrutiny, it has probably not come up.

Ah a vapor point you made then. You have nothing showing that the Italian wouldn't extradite in similar circumstances, right? I'm sure numerous posters here are looking as we type.

On the actual case I quoted, the argument is that the Italian legal system was not satisfied with just promising that the death penalty would not be sought but that Florida would need to jump through hoops.

There have been also been multiple cases where US court awards one parent custody, an Italian parent runs to Italy to with the child, and the Italian Supreme Court states "screw you" to US courts. Look up Jeff Koons / Ilona Staller for example.

Would you trust Florida? Anyway not an example that even begins to fit and child custody cases are the same world round.

I think others have already shown that your arguments about him not remember sex are off base. Arguing that again does not seem real honest. Otherwise, there is always something odd which can be used as "evidence" of guilt.

You and I also both know that accusations of misconduct by the Italian police are basically forbidden. Your lawyers are not going to go there because they don't want to be in jail.

Of course, I didn't say anything about misconduct. I said they needed to after the "confession" and what the police meant by buckle etc.

No one has shown that his not remembering sex is off-base. Both of the kids have stated that their conduct could have been better to say the least. Using people here as a neutral group is well...anyway equally as honest than using a guilty anywhere post to prove a point on Italian law.

There is no 6 year limit on a murder trial and that's not based on a vote by PMF posters.

Most of the character assassinations. Strike that. Instead, I would argue that all of the character assassinations have been against Amanda. If nothing else, that argues clearly that the case was always focused on her and not him. It is like the West Memphis Three case in that really the case was all about Damian and sweet deals were offered to his co-defendants to roll over on him.

Did you follow the West Memphis case in real time or are you basing the above on a movie and maybe a true crime novel?

I'd say Raf got a share but clearly Amanda made better press for many reasons.

What did the shirt Raf wore to court say? "Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurres to me What a long, strange trip it's been."

or maybe "The long and winding road that leads to your door
Will never disappear
I've seen that road before it always leads me here
Leads me to your door"

or maybe "You know that it would be untrue
You know that I would be a liar
If I was to say to you
Girl, we couldn't get much higher"

 

[Desert Fox]

Did I just read from you that you in effect will accept no second hand source no matter how well referenced? If so, it is absolutely useless to discuss any issue with you at all.

If this is not the case, you better clarify or I will suggest that every poster completely ignores anything you ever post.

 

[Grinder]

Did I just read from you that you in effect will accept no second hand source no matter how well referenced? If so, it is absolutely useless to discuss any issue with you at all.

If this is not the case, you better clarify or I will suggest that every poster completely ignores anything you ever post.

I don't know what a second hand source is but if you are referring to using a PI pro-Amanda web site for proof of the six year limit, no I don't accept that source when I have provided neutral sources that say differently.

 

[Desert Fox]

I don't know what a second hand source is but if you are referring to using a PI pro-Amanda web site for proof of the six year limit, no I don't accept that source when I have provided neutral sources that say differently.

What you in effect wrote is that you will accept no second hand source with regards to the West Memphis Three case being a witch hunt more or less directed at Damian Echols.

There are three issues we are discussion
1. Can a time limit be used as an excuse to dismiss charges without making the Italian legal system look like clowns
2. That Italy would likely refuse to extradite a defendant to the US under a similar situation.
3. That the case is about Amanda not really about Raff.
While there is always some overlap, they are different issues. You are confusing issues here.

 

[Grinder]

What you in effect wrote is that you will accept no second hand source with regards to the West Memphis Three case being a witch hunt more or less directed at Damian Echols.

Did you follow the case in real time? Simple question. No, I don't regard movies or true crime novels sources without backing. As I showed true crime books are regarded as part fiction and except for documentaries no movie is regarded as telling the gospel truth.

There are three issues we are discussion
1. Can a time limit be used as an excuse to dismiss charges without making the Italian legal system look like clowns

Well that's a bit off now isn't it. You started by saying that the statute of limitations had run out on this case. I pointed to sources that in fact there is no statute of limitations on murder in Italy. Then you said you shouldn't have used statute of limitations but rather length of trial. I provided an article covering a proposed change that would not have limited the length of a murder trial to six years. Then you backed the six limit with a quote from justice anywhere or some such site that didn't even say that there was a six year limit but rather that trials needed to be compoleted and six years was considered reasonable but not the limit - see the difference?

2. That Italy would likely refuse to extradite a defendant to the US under a similar situation.

Yes you made that assertion with absolutely nothing to back it up.

3. That the case is about Amanda not really about Raff.
While there is always some overlap, they are different issues. You are confusing issues here.

Obviously I don't think so about confusing issues. The media here in Seattle has definitely focused on Amanda. The british have done likewise. Certainly the press has had more interest in Amanda and most likely the police and ILE. That doesn't translate in a witch trial and they were out to get the pretty american girl.

 

[Desert Fox]

Did you follow the case in real time? Simple question. No, I don't regard movies or true crime novels sources without backing. As I showed true crime books are regarded as part fiction and except for documentaries no movie is regarded as telling the gospel truth.

By your position now, if they are convicted by a jury, they are guilty.

For example, the book "Devil's Knot" is written directly from interviews of participants and from court transcripts. It is not fictionalized (yes, the movie is) but a well referenced book on the events of the murders and the trials that followed.

You though, will not accept anything from it.

As well, you will accept nothing about the Norfolk Four from the "Wrong Guys" even though it is co-written by an expert in false confessions and otherwise has extensive source material and references.

What is there that anybody can discuss with you at all?

 

[Grinder]

By your position now, if they are convicted by a jury, they are guilty.

Now you're being ridiculous.

For example, the book "Devil's Knot" is written directly from interviews of participants and from court transcripts. It is not fictionalized (yes, the movie is) but a well referenced book on the events of the murders and the trials that followed.

It is not described as a true crime novel. It has sourcing and as such I would give it credibility unless shown inaccuracies. There is no such book on this case that I'm aware written by non involved parties.

You though, will not accept anything from it.

I believe if you review, I said if it was a true crime novel or a movie that wasn't a documentary I'd discount it.

As well, you will accept nothing about the Norfolk Four from the "Wrong Guys" even though it is co-written by an expert in false confessions and otherwise has extensive source material and references.

Show me where I said that.

 

[Desert Fox]

It is not described as a true crime novel. It has sourcing and as such I would give it credibility unless shown inaccuracies. There is no such book on this case that I'm aware written by non involved parties.

"Devil's Knot" is described as a True Crime book. I do not know how you are defining novel from book. If you accept Devil's Knot as at least being accurate in the broad sense, you will at least accept that the court case was mostly focused on Damian and others were almost brought along for the ride.

I will deal with the third argument in our list of three here.
My argument is that the case was far more focused on Amanda than Raff.
The thing is that in previous posts you pretty much already admitted that it was her odd activity that caused the focus on her.

I am pretty sure if Raff just lied and said that Amanda left for a short time, they would have happily let him off. You will of course disagree even though I think it is pretty clear.