'What about building 7'?

[Miragememories]

Old ground Glenn. I already accepted the possibility that Mr. Jennings arrived at the OEM after the 2nd attack.

I do not agree that the OEM was occupied until 9:45 am.

Old ground, current discussion. "arrived after the 2nd attack" doesn't cut the mustard as that includes 9:04 when he would have found it occupied.

There's ample evidence he arrived closer to 10 than 9, mostly that the order to evacuate the OEM didn't come until 9:30, it would have taken time to clear, and would have required a safety officer to confirm it was truly empty and lock up. 9:45 is a very reasonable estimate. Call it 9:40 if you wish, but then your 'preferred' timeline falls to pieces.

9:04? Now you are grabbing at numbers.

When Mr. Jennings arrived at the OEM, what he witnessed was evidence of a very hasty departure.

The staff that normally occupied the OEM should have been at their desks by 9 am.

Mr. Jennings found half eaten sandwiches and unfinished still-hot coffees, breakfasts that people would have arrived with, yet never finished.

This suggests to me that they left their posts well before 9:45 am.

You know what's truly scary?

Following an external link to the Jennings testimony I bumped into this.

It contains clear evidence, collated by you, that WTC7 was not Jennings' normal workplace, yet recently here it took days of argument before you conceded that fact, a fact you knew back in 2008.

I don't believe you have any interest whatsoever in establishing facts, or even discussing probabilities, through honest debate; you just feel that as long as you do debate then your beliefs will be protected somehow.

Given that you're clearly happy to say things that you really ought to know are untrue then the debate will be endless.

Often I have to go back and refresh my memory and on occasion I miss things.

It wasn't "days of argument" about that point. In one post on Sept.11, I mistakenly said; "He did not say that he was "directed" to the OEM at 7 WTC."

In two other recent posts, I said he was on his way to 7 WTC (true), and he was on his way to work (7 WTC), still true (the re-direct was work related).

So yes, I forgot that one point, and yes I corrected my error when this was brought to my attention.

But, I would hardly qualify my missing the fact that Mr. Jennings was on his way to work and re-directed to the OEM at 7 WTC as "truly scary", or that "days of argument" were spent before I made a correction on that point.

I made that error and corrected it on the same day, Sept.11, 2014.

Grasp at straws much?

At any rate, it either added or subtracted some travel time. We do not know how much or how little. Mr. Jennings said that traffic was "excellent" and one can only assume his normal arrival time at work would have been 9 am., with more urgency in this case because of the unfolding emergency situation.

If this is the best you can do for rebuttal, it is quite pathetic .

 

[Gamolon]

Interesting photo.

I see burned cars in the street yet no broken window on the 8th floor behind the Erik Freeland banner.



(Edit)
This is the incorrect floor. The window they broke out should be one more floor up, which is not shown. My mistake)

 

[Miragememories]

9:04? Now you are grabbing at numbers.

When Mr. Jennings arrived at the OEM, what he witnessed was evidence of a very hasty departure.

The staff that normally occupied the OEM should have been at their desks by 9 am.

Mr. Jennings found half eaten sandwiches and unfinished still-hot coffees, breakfasts that people would have arrived with, yet never finished. This suggests to me that they left their posts well before 9:45 am.

It suggests to me that like Jennings and Hess, others arrived later than 9 AM, coffee and breakfast in hand.

??
It was not Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess.

"Upon arriving into the OEM EOC,..we notice that..everybody was gone.

I saw coffee that was on the desk. Still. The smoke was still coming off the coffee.

I saw..I saw er half eaten sandwiches."

The people in the offices where I worked regularly arrived at 9 am or a bit earlier with coffees and breakfast foods.

It would seem highly unlikely that 45 minutes later, their sandwiches would be half-eaten and water vapour would still be rising from their unfinished coffees.

 

[jaydeehess]

??
It was not Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess.

​

The people in the offices where I worked regularly arrived at 9 am or a bit earlier with coffees and breakfast foods.

It would seem highly unlikely that 45 minutes later, their sandwiches would be half-eaten and water vapour would still be rising from their unfinished coffees.

Perhaps you misunderstand.
I am saying that in a timeline that has Jennings and Hess arriving well after 9AM, its also possible that like them, other people arrived later than 9AM, and that those people may well have done so coffee and breakfast in hand.
IOW J&H arrive at 9:45, 15-20 minutes after everyone has left. Others had arrived for instance, at 9:20 with a breakfast. Coffee for that matter may well have been brewed in the office, I know it is in my office.

The fact that these items are there cannot be said to indicate that J&H arrived shortly after 9AM.
What we do know is that the people in the OEM all went out via the same lobby that J&H entered and that J&H did not see the others. At the very best we have a cup of coffee poured just as they are ordered out. Even if they then run (not likely, why would they?) to the elevators, meet in the lobby and then exit, its at best 3-5 minutes. Now J&H enter, go up to the 23rd floor, back down to get a key, back up and into the OEM. Even if they are running (and again why would they?) its at best 10-15 minutes, for a total of around 15 minutes at the very very best. Pour yourself a coffee and let it sit for 15 minutes. Still steaming?. Mine isn't! Even my Tim's in a covered paper cup is barely hot enough to steam after 15 minutes. (and if this is bought coffee we must add in the time it took to get from vendor to OEM). In an insulated, covered cup it would be but would we now be expected to believe that J&H went about taking lids off coffee cups? So where does that steamy coffee reference come from? Possibly a desktop coffee machine IN THE OEM.
The sandwiches, this is not a normal leisurely day in which one arrives and takes the time to enjoy breakfast. There is an immediate task at hand, at least one tower is burning, people are evacuating WTC 1, fire crews are arriving and reporting, police and ambulance crews are doing the same. Then WTC 2 is seen to get hit and one knws that this already large operation is going to get at least twice as large. Getting a bite in is done when possible, or forgotten entirely as focus is elsewhere.

 

[jaydeehess]

Did some number crunching on visibility through WTC 7 and out the south windows. Gotta make some assumptions here. Let's say Jennings is six feet tall and that the top of the windows is 8 feet above floor level. We will also assume that the floor level of the 8th floor of WTC 7 is the same as that of the top (8th) floor of WTC 6.
WTC 7 is 140 feet wide from north to south
So we have a right triangle two feet high and 140 feet long. Angle is invtan(2/140). That's 0.82 degrees look angle. I invite, nay, implore, others to check my trig. If I made an error I want to know.

Now assume that the rooftop level of WTC 6 is no less than 4 feet higher than the level of the top of the WTC7 windows. (that would make the distance from WTC6, 8th floor to rooftop, 12 feet. ie. floor to ceiling plus thickness of the roof)
Even if the horz distance between south side of #7 and north side of #6 is an additional 140 feet, Jennings cannot see over WTC 6.

If #6 is closer, or if #6 has a thicker roof it makes it even more difficult. If Jennings moved significantly closer(ie. away from the window their rescuers expect them to be at), or if the south side windows rise more than 8 feet above the floor, or if WTC7's floor to floor rise is greater than that of WTC 6's, it makes it easier to see over WTC 6. I readily admit there are lots of unknowns.

I did find that WTC 6 was 93 feet tall, however it apparently sat on a higher foundation with the first floor being above street level, making it 105 feet above the street. WTC7 first floor was at street level.

Jennings could not bend down much and still have a view as the workstation partitions would have been in the way then. In my experience those partitions are about 5 feet high.

The floor plan for the AMEX office on the 8th floor (as shown in the NIST final report) indicates that J&H would have naturally taken a route from west stairs to NE corner around the boardroom and thus putting them alongside the north windows by the time they get east of the core.

I conclude that it is unlikely that a person at the north side of WTC 7 could see across the floor and through the south windows and be able to see anything past WTC 6.

 

[Miragememories]

I conclude that it is unlikely that a person at the north side of WTC 7 could see across the floor and through the south windows and be able to see anything past WTC 6.

And I would say you haven't done your homework.

There is both a wider street opening between the SE side of WTC 7 and the NE side of WTC 6, as well as a wide space between WTC 6 and WTC 5.

WTC 2 should be visible through WTC 7 southeast side windows (overlooking the pedestrian bridge), as the building layout above reveals.

Note the reflection of the WTC twin towers and the visible interiors of WTC7.

 

[DGM]

Um... I asked Mr. Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows. Once I broke out the windows,

Not for nothing but, these windows are double glazed. He would need to break two panes of glass to see out one window. FYI

 

[Animal]

And I would say you haven't done your homework.


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/WTC7SouthLayout2_zpscf502902.png[/qimg]

There is both a wider street opening between the SE side of WTC 7 and the NE side of WTC 6, as well as a wide space between WTC 6 and WTC 5.

WTC 2 should be visible through WTC 7 southeast side windows (overlooking the pedestrian bridge), as the building layout above reveals.


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/WTC7SECorner_zps8cf845b2.png[/qimg]


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/WTC7SouthSideTowersreflect-Comp1_zps03931c8e.png[/qimg]

Note the reflection of the WTC twin towers and the visible interiors of WTC7.

What part of unlikely can you not comprehend?

 

[Norseman]

From NIST_NCSTAR_1-9_Vol1_cs_for_public_comment.pdf

"The two men went back to the 8th floor, broke out two windows, and called for help."


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/WTC7-911_HighQualityPhotos2222-SC_zpsae0448dc.png[/qimg]
NE Corner broken window.


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/WTC7EastSideBrokenWindow_zpsee1c83f8.png[/qimg]
Note the 2nd broken window on the east side, same floor.

It goes without saying that Mr. Jennings could have seen WTC2 by looking out from the east side.

From inside WTC7, any window view on the south side would have revealed both WTC2 and WTC1.

Just because Mr. Jennings was trapped on the 8th floor does not mean he was trapped in that NE corner office.

The number of windows they broke to call for help is in my opinion a very minor detail in the over all picture. Nevertheless it caught my interest, so could not resist doing bit of research.

Regarding the Window on the east side on the 8th floor NIST agrees with you on page 180, that it was broken by Jennings and Hess.

In Figure 5–90, windows are visible on a portion of the east face up to the 20th floor. There is no indication of façade damage or, with one exception, broken window glass in the image. The only broken glass is the center window on the 8th floor, to the right of Column 36. This open window is also visible in Figure 5–22. Investigation interviews indicated that this window was broken out by people who were trapped on this floor when WTC 1 collapsed (Chapter 6). Video clips in the database show one of these people inside an open window (8-42A) on the eastern edge of the north face.

But NIST also writes on page 181 that they broke two windows on the north face:

Review of various images of the north face of WTC 7 revealed that the face appeared undamaged, with the exception of two locations on the 8th floor, where window glass was broken out prior to the time when fires began breaking windows on the face. A view of the undamaged lower nine floors at the northwest corner was shown in Figure 5–87. As noted above, window 8-42A was open on the northeast corner of the 8th floor. This window is visible in Figure 5–91. This cropped image is taken from the same photograph as Figure 5–12. The other open window observed on this side of the building was 8-47B. This open window is visible in Figure 5–30 above the left hand edge of the fire burning on the 7th floor. This window was also broken out by people trapped in the building after WTC 1 collapsed.

After looking at some high resolution photos of the window on the east side on the 8th floor, I doubt that it was completly broken through. It looks more like it is just the outer pane that is broken, with the inner pane reflecting the light from the sky differently than the outer pane. The difference probably due to the outer pane being tinted and the inner pane not being tinted. If the windows had been completely broken through I would expect the interior to look black like what we can see through the broken window on the north east corner, due the difference in contrast between the daylight on the outside and the dark interior.

The following photos is located on the NIST WTC repository at: http://wtcdata.nist.gov/.
Click on link to the repository and accept the copyright disclaimer before you click on the links below, then you will avoid an error message directing you to the above link. After opening the link just click on the photos to load a larger version.

First these photos taken by George Miller:
*North East Corner Broken Windows 1
*North East Corner Broken Windows 2
*East Face Broken Window

Then this photo taken by Shawn Hutchinson:
*East Face Broken Window

What could so have broken the outer pane? It could have been debris from WTC 1, or it could have been debris falling from the burning floors above the 8th floor. Note that the in last linked picture taken by George Miller, the louvers beneath the broken window on the east face looks undamaged. While in the picture taken by Shawn Hutchinson when the fire on floor 11 have progressed further north, there is a dent in the same louvres. In fact there is a video showing what looks like window panes falling down from the floors above.

 

[GlennB]

First these photos taken by George Miller:
*North East Corner Broken Windows 1
*North East Corner Broken Windows 2

Clearly show the window was not broken to the extent that someone could look out. It's still reflecting light.

 

[Miragememories]

??
It was not Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess.

"Upon arriving into the OEM EOC,..we notice that..everybody was gone.

I saw coffee that was on the desk. Still. The smoke was still coming off the coffee.

I saw..I saw er half eaten sandwiches."

The people in the offices where I worked regularly arrived at 9 am or a bit earlier with coffees and breakfast foods.

It would seem highly unlikely that 45 minutes later, their sandwiches would be half-eaten and water vapour would still be rising from their unfinished coffees.

I am saying that in a timeline that has Jennings and Hess arriving well after 9AM, its also possible that like them, other people arrived later than 9AM, and that those people may well have done so coffee and breakfast in hand.

IOW J&H arrive at 9:45, 15-20 minutes after everyone has left.

The fact that these items are there cannot be said to indicate that J&H arrived shortly after 9AM.

What we do know is that the people in the OEM all went out via the same lobby that J&H entered and that J&H did not see the others.

<snipped all the superfluous content>.

I certainly would not try and make a solid case just on the coffee and sandwiches.

According to the 9/11 Commission, OEM’s command center was evacuated at 9:30 a.m. due to reports of further unaccounted for planes.

OEM Commissioner, John Odermatt, top deputy to Richard Sheirer (the director of the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management (OEM), said that after the first plane hit, he left only two staffers at the WTC 7's OEM command center.

For all we know, this may have been a reference to his directives to Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess.

John Farmer, who headed the 9/11 Commission unit responsible for assessing the city response to the attacks, found it “strange that Sheirer, four OEM deputies, and a field responder went straight to the North Tower… rather than to the nearby emergency command center.”

Two journalists, Dan Collins and Wayne Barrett concluded that the "OEM was out of business from the outset"

Richard Sheirer stayed at 1 WTC until 9:30 am, at which time he joined Mayor Guiliani at a temporary command post on Barclay Street.

John Farmer from the 9/11 Commission later voiced a complaint about not being able to figure what Sheirer was doing as virtually the whole OEM chain of command were with him, and not at the OEM.

 

[Africanus]

The people in the offices where I worked regularly arrived at 9 am or a bit earlier with coffees and breakfast foods.

It would seem highly unlikely that 45 minutes later, their sandwiches would be half-eaten and water vapour would still be rising from their unfinished coffees.

I think, that this detail is of less importance. First we are not able to corroborate it, second it doesn't give any information when the EOC was evacuated.
Your argument would be valid, if the situation at that time was normal, but it wasn't. There was a plane that crashed into a skyscraper, which I suppose didn't happen in the offices you worked. After that event, the people in the EOC had to handle a chaotic emergency. I refer to the account of Richard Bylicki once more:

While in the EOC I assisted the Watch Command in handling an enormous influx of telephone calls, many from top City officials

I think, that you don't get the time to eat your sandwich under such circumstances.

Regarding the "smoking coffee": I think that this is completely irrelevant. Even in 2001 there was usually a coffee machine or a coffee dispenser in an office.

ETA:

OEM Commissioner, John Odermatt, top deputy to Richard Sheirer (the director of the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management (OEM), said that after the first plane hit, he left only two staffers at the WTC 7's OEM command center.

For all we know, this may have been a reference to his directives to Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess.

That's nonsense, neither Jennings nor Hess were part of the OEM staff. Jennings worked for the housing authority, Hess for Giuliani. I think, that one of those staffers was Richard Bylicki.

 

[jaydeehess]

And I would say you haven't done your homework.


[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/WTC7SouthLayout2_zpscf502902.png[/qimg]

There is both a wider street opening between the SE side of WTC 7 and the NE side of WTC 6, as well as a wide space between WTC 6 and WTC 5.[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/WTC7SECorner_zps8cf845b2.png[/qimg]
WTC 2 should be visible through WTC 7 southeast side windows (overlooking the pedestrian bridge), as the building layout above reveals.

How wide apart were the two buildings(6&7)? as for the gap to the east of #6, you are arguing that Jennings saw BOTH towers

[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/WTC7SouthSideTowersreflect-Comp1_zps03931c8e.png[/qimg]

Note the reflection of the WTC twin towers and the visible interiors of WTC7.

Yeah, so? That's a completely different trigonometry.

 

[Norseman]

I am not disputing the fact that at the time of their collapse, Mr. Jennings was in the 7 WTC, 8th floor NE office, and therefore did not observe the destruction of the WTC twin towers.

But, he was in a position to observe that they were standing after he arrived at the 8th floor earlier before 10 am.

He did observe the fleeing firefighters at two seperate times.

He did observe some of the post collapse results, i.e. burning vehicles and the destruction to the 7 WTC lobby.

In addition, when he went home a few hours later, the gaps in his observations were filled by the repetitive News coverage.

He was told the both WTC twin towers collapsed, at what time, and how it looked, including the massive dust cloud.

If he had not experienced the collapses from that 7 WTC corner office, he would have immediately realized something was extremely wrong in his recall.

He would have asked himself the obvious question; "Where were the engulfing clouds of WTC dust that were part of what drove the firefighters away?"

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31677&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1410734770[/qimg]

He would then have to conclude that he was halucinating when he looked and saw the WTC twin towers when he arrived at the 7 WTC 8th floor earlier.

But, Mr. Jennings never had that new realization because he did not see any contradiction to his original observations.

He obviously must have witnessed those engulfing clouds of dust each time the firefighters fled.

Years later he still was certain of his observations in spite of the efforts by others to convince him otherwise.

There is nothing wrong with the observations of Barry Jennings that day. But when he came home and tried to make sense of what he experienced he managed to get his time line wrong. And I find it plausible that the point where he got it wrong, was when he made the telephone call from inside the OEM/EMC and was told to leave WTC 7 immediately. He never states why he was told to leave. But both the NIST report and other sources state that the OEM/EMC was evacuated after the mistaken report about another plane coming in, shortly after 0930.

So it is quit likely that Jennings is told that there is another plane coming in. While they still are inside the OEM/EMC all the power goes out, as stated by Michel Hess in his interview on radio shortly after they got out of WTC 7. When Barry gets home he mixes this up with Flight 175 hitting WTC 2. If he thinks the collapse of WTC 2 is Flight 175 hitting WTC 2, then he got a problem fitting in the collapse of WTC 2 and WTC 1 in his narrative, because he only experience one violent event after they leave the OEM/EMC. So to get his narrative to make sense he mixes up the behavior of firefighters running around to rescue him with the collapse of WTC 2 and WTC 1. But that leaves him still with an unexplained event in his narrative, namely the collapse of WTC 1 when they got down to floor 6. Something that will confuse him for years to come.

It is also entirely possible that Jennings arrived at WTC 7 without noticing that both towers were burning, due to one tower and smoke hiding the view, especially coming in from the north west side. Or if he noticed both towers burning he could easily have thought that the fires were caused by the first aircraft he was told about on the phone on his way to work.

Had he been inside floor 8th when WTC 2 and WTC 1 collapsed he would certainly have described the engulfing clouds, the noise and vibrations in great detail, just like he described what he experienced inside the stair case. It is unlikely that he would have described firefighters running as he his only visual clue to the collapse of WTC 2 and WTC 1.

I think the following should shed some light on all the running back and forth by the firefighters described by Barry Jennings. First two accounts by two EMT partners in an ambulance that were forced to stop at the corner of Murray Street and West Broadway when WTC 1 collapsed. The dust cloud made it impossible for them see where they were driving. Then they proceeded on foot to the corner of Barclay Street and West Broadway at WTC 7, where they noticed persons trapped on the eight floor:

WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW EMT JEFFREY WARNER

And:
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
EMT NICOLE FERRELL

There were people screaming out
of one of these two buildings over here saying they
couldn't get out, and my partner took one straggler
fireman, the one that we had with us, and was trying to
break the door because the door obviously had shifted
or something. They couldn't get the door open.
Q. That was 7 World Trade Center?
A. I believe it was 7. Maybe it was 5. It was
at the back end of it because I do remember the
telephone company. So I think it was the back end of
7, I think right over here at that point, and they
couldn't get out. Then I had ran down the block and I
flagged a ladder company and they brought the ladder,
which they had like a vestibule that you couldn't like
really reach the people because the ladder wouldn't
reach. So they went and got other resources, they went
inside the building, and I told my partner that it
wasn't safe and that we need to go because everything
around us was like falling apart. So we got back in
the ambulance.

Notice that their ambulance were parked one block north of WTC 7. They would be moving away from Barry Jennings when they went back. I highly recommend reading both interviews. They worked together as partners in the same event, but note how they describes different details and aspects of the same story. For instance, while one is confused about their location the other is not. Something to keep in mind in relation to interviews with Barry Jennings. EMT Jefrrey Warner describes their failed effort on the inside of WTC 7 to reach the eight floor through an entrance from Barclay Street.

 

[jaydeehess]

[OEM Commissioner, John Odermatt, top deputy to Richard Sheirer (the director of the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management (OEM), said that after the first plane hit, he left only two staffers at the WTC 7's OEM command center.

For all we know, this may have been a reference to his directives to Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess.

Pretty ridiculous to assume that Odermatt was referring to two people who were not yet in the OEM at that time nor actually OEM employees. Sorry MM, that straw won't keep you from drowning at all, best try something else.

 

[DGM]

To think "truthers" don't think the fires in WTC 7 were bad.

 

[Norseman]

No Broken Window Before the Collapse of WTC 1

Shortly before WTC 1 collapsed the photographer Mark Roddenberry photographed the northeast corner of WTC 7. The images are located in the NIST WTC media repository at: http://wtcdata.nist.gov.

As mentioned earlier click on the above link and accept the copyright disclaimer, before clicking on the links to avoid an error message pointing to the disclaimer page. After opening the links click on the image to open a larger version.

*Northeast Corner
*Southeast Corner with WTC 1

Notice no broken windows on floor 8th and no burning vehicles at this stage. Also note that in the first picture you cannot tell if WTC 2 and WTC 1 are there or not due to the smoke. And in the last picture you cannot tell if WTC 2 are there or not, even though it has already collapsed. And the subsequent pictures taken after the collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2 from this angle, shows just smoke. So it is quiet reasonable that anyone entering the 8th floor not having seen the collapses would think that towers were still standing.

The images are actually a collage of images taken in quick succession. Mark Roddenberry turned his images into an exhibition that has been shown around in the states since. In this video Mark talkes about his experience that day and how he took the pictures:


At 8:15 he talkes about the last picture and how he was saved by WTC 7 when WTC 1 collapsed. The video is old, the first time I saw it was on Google Videos, before Google shut down that service after buying YouTube.

 

[Norseman]

I accept that he arrived at the 8th floor prior to the collapse of the WTC twin towers.

I am flexible on the timing of events prior to that.

You are embracing guesstimates as if they are computer time and date stamped.

When it comes to Mr. Jenning's time estimates, you crap all over them.

When other estimates are provided that allow you to contradict Mr. Jennings you gladly embrace them as if they were from God.

Eye witness testimony seems to be inviolate when you guys want it to be but only then.

People were not writing exact times in log books and in all the excitement and the need to look good, I expect the provided times, depending on who provided them, were guesses and/or embellishments.

The only times we can accept with certainty are when the planes attacked and when the WTC towers fell.

The fact is that had Jennings and Hess arrived at the 8th floor prior to the collapse of WTC 2 they could have taken the elevators down or walked down the stairs, whenever they wanted. When WTC 2 collapsed the power was lost and the elevators stalled, but they could still have walked down the stairs up to point of the collapse of WTC 1, that filled the stairs with so much smoke and dust that they were unusable until firefighters vented the stairs later on. This is described in the NIST report and in other sources.

In november 2001 Elevator World printed an account of how two resident Otis Elevator Co freed people from stalled elevators inside WTC 7 after WTC 2 collapsed (South Tower):

Thirty-nine elevators and eight escalators were running in 7 World Trade at the time of the attack. Flanagan and Klaum knew there would be entrapments. Both mechanics, with a combined 35 years of experience at Otis Elevator Co., were in the back of 7 World Trade, near an escalator between the third and fourth floor before the South Tower collapsed.

Suddenly, it became so dark it seemed like midnight in New York without street lights.

"I couldn't even see my hand in front of my face," Klaum said.

But there was work to be done immediately.

First there was the matter of a mid-rise elevator, Car #11, stuck near the lobby because of a power outage. Four people were inside, and they were understandably panicked.

"We're trained to talk to them and try to calm them down," Flanagan said. "I couldn't even see them from where I was. The car was in a blind hatch just above me, but I talked to them and told them I was going to get them out of there as soon as possible."

Flanagan went to the machine room to reset the car so that it could operate on emergency power.

"It started up and they got out. I never got to see them, but they got out OK," Flanagan added.

Now it was Klaum's turn to respond. Despite being a veteran of Vietnam, there was nothing in his experience that trained him for what was happening. However, he did know how to get people out of elevators.

A low-rise elevator, Car #5, was out, likely because it lost communication with its processor. The machine actually operated the way it was supposed to, safeguarding passengers by stopping when the electricity went out.

Klaum reset the processor, the car moved to the next landing, and the passengers were freed.

Source: Elevator World, scroll down to "New York Mechanics at Their Best During Tragedy"

Then we have the story of Mike Catalano and Jose Gregori who were maintenance engineers in WTC 7. After Flight 175 had hit WTC 2 Mike Catalano organized a floor by floor search with eight persons. Among them were Jose Gregori:

But getting away wasn’t that simple. Mike Catalano had called everyone to the 3rd floor lobby. Floor-by-floor evacuation was under way — soon a full
31
evacuation would be ordered — and Mike asked for volunteers, in teams of two, to go back up and check the floors, just in case anyone was left behind.
Joe partnered with George Hall, the cleaning superintendent. Not many people were still in the building, but as they climbed they did run into one high-ranking executive, who kidded them: “Joe, you’re going the wrong way!” It wasn’t much of a joke.
Floor by floor, they forced open locked doors, checked every office and cubicle, every bathroom, every pantry. Looking back, Joe is struck by how conscientious they were.
“We found some coffee machines that were still on, and we thought we’d better shut them off because we didn’t know when we would be coming back to the building. Little did we know that we would never return to 7 World Trade Center.”
They were searching the 28th floor, on the southeast side, when the building suddenly began to shake violently, and in the next instant it was engulfed in smoke and a sound “like being run down by bulldozers — noise like I’d never heard.” The south tower was collapsing, and projectiles of steel and masonry were being hurled into 7 WTC.
Mike was on the radio, calling everyone down. Joe and George made their way out of the building mostly by feel — the stairwells were dark and full of smoke. Finally, once outside, they paused with the other members of their crew. Vinnie Lanzetta had passed out, and an EMS technician had started him on oxygen. Joe was holding the oxygen bag when the floor beneath them started shaking. The north tower, only some 100 yards away, was coming down.

Source: Responding to Horror Operating Engineers in Action at the World Trade Center Disaster
Mike`s story starts on page 23 and Joe`s on page 30.

You should read both accounts carefully and note both their and their coworkers use of stairs on all levels, from top bottom of the building from the time Flight 11 hit WTC 1 until the collapse of WTC 1 later on. How you can shoehorn in Jennings getting trapped on floor 8th before the collapse of WTC 1 is beyond me. It is quiet obvious that Jennings put together a flawed timeline after he got home and tried to make sense of what he had experienced. The factual events described by Jennings while inside WTC 7 fits perfectly with the overall picture that day.

You will find more witness accounts on this page contradicting Jennings flawed timeline:
WTC 7 Witness Accounts

Had Jennings and Hess walked down from floor 23 shortly after Flight 175 hit WTC 2 as Jennings claim, they would certainly not have been alone in the stairs.

ETA
According to the NIST NCSTAR 1-9 Vol 1 and 2, page 311 and 312, mid-rise elevator #11 served Floors 22 through 28 from Floor 3. The OEM/EMC was on Floor 23.
Low-rise elevator #5 served Floors 3 through 13.

 

[jaydeehess]

Well, Norseman seems to have conclusively nailed down the error in Jennings' timeline.

 

[Miragememories]

Shortly before WTC 1 collapsed the photographer Mark Roddenberry photographed the northeast corner of WTC 7. The images are located in the NIST WTC media repository at: http://wtcdata.nist.gov.

As mentioned earlier click on the above link and accept the copyright disclaimer, before clicking on the links to avoid an error message pointing to the disclaimer page. After opening the links click on the image to open a larger version.

*Northeast Corner
*Southeast Corner with WTC 1

Notice no broken windows on floor 8th and no burning vehicles at this stage. Also note that in the first picture you cannot tell if WTC 2 and WTC 1 are there or not due to the smoke. And in the last picture you cannot tell if WTC 2 are there or not, even though it has already collapsed. And the subsequent pictures taken after the collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2 from this angle, shows just smoke. So it is quiet reasonable that anyone entering the 8th floor not having seen the collapses would think that towers were still standing.

Thank you Norseman for providing evidence and in a civil manner instead of the usual incredulous opining that others tend to provide.

Upon perusing the Mark Roddenberry images and listening to his video description of how he came to make these photographs, I have to agree that the NE corner window shows no appearance of having been broken prior to the collapse of 2 WTC.

For Mr. Jennings claim of seeing the WTC twin towers still standing to hold true, he must have made his observation prior to breaking the NE window.

But when he did break the NE office window, 1 WTC must have already fallen.

That would make sense of why Mr. Jennings said; "Once I broke out the windows, I could see..outside below me.

I saw er..police cars..on fire..buses on fire."

At this point I agree with this portion of your post;

There is nothing wrong with the observations of Barry Jennings that day.

But when he came home and tried to make sense of what he experienced he managed to get his time line wrong.

"See, I didn't know what was going on.

When they started running..the first tower was coming down.

I had no..I had no way of knowing that.

Then I saw them come back.

Now I saw them come back with more concern on their faces.

And then they ran away again.

The second tower fell.

So as they turned and ran the second time,

the guy said "don't worry we'll be back for you."

To make any sense, Mr. Jennings must have misinterpreted the activities below, which adds some agreement with what you reported from EMT Jeffrey Warner.

The question still remains as to why he made no obvious mention of what he experienced during the collapses from the 8th floor, unless in his blind situation of not knowing what was going on, the collapses were reflected in his comments about the darkness, the smoke, the heat, and the constant explosions.

The fact is that had Jennings and Hess arrived at the 8th floor prior to the collapse of WTC 2 they could have taken the elevators down or walked down the stairs, whenever they wanted.

When WTC 2 collapsed the power was lost and the elevators stalled, but they could still have walked down the stairs up to point of the collapse of WTC 1, that filled the stairs with so much smoke and dust that they were unusable until firefighters vented the stairs later on.

This is described in the NIST report and in other sources.

Given the circumstances it is not surprising that Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess would not wait for emergency power to re-activate the elevators.

Regarding the descent from the 23rd floor by Jose Gregori and George Hall, during which time 2WTC collapsed, presumably they both used the other stairwell, which by their own evidence was not obstructed by anything other than heavy smoke.

This does not put Mr. Jenning's claim about a broken stairwell in dispute unless it can be shown that it was the same one used by Gregori and Hall or you can clearly establish witness testimony for a descent on both stairwells at a time that overlapped with the Jennings and Hess attempted descent.

It was one of Mr. Jenning's rescuers that claimed BOTH stairwells were obstructed to the 8th floor.

It would appear that that rescuer must have been mistaken about the second stairwell though his description of its condition was oddly different (blown out) from that described by Gregori and Hall.

But 'only' smoke obstruction would account for how the firefighters eventually reached Jennings and Hess.