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Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend

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I don't believe the second bit in bold is true, LJ. This was something various legal commentators (including Grant) claimed after the first part of the judge's ruling, but that criticism seems to have fallen by the wayside since. In fact the judge specifically talks about "Reeva or any other person"; she doesn't limit 'intent' to Reeva at all.


I believe you're wrong though. It's handy to now be able to refer to a transcription of Masipa's oral judgement to illustrate this. Page 49 and 50 of that pdf (headed as page 3327 and 3328) contains the crucial passage that deals with dolus eventualis. It's not formatted in such a way as to enable an easy copy/paste into here, but in my view it's absolutely unequivocal in the way that Masipa deals with dolus eventualis: she states clearly that it only applies to "the deceased", and "reasons" that since the court finds that Pistorius truly believed "the deceased" to be in the bedroom at the time the shots were fired, he cannot therefore have had the intent to kill or seriously injure her. One can attach no other meaning to the words given on these pages. I grant that she then muddies the water by her ill-chosen words of "...the person behind the door, let alone the deceased", but the previous passages make it crystal clear (in my view) that she is misapplying the law in assessing intent purely against "the deceased", when in fact she should be assessing it against whomever Pistorius believed to be behind the door (and we know from his own defence that he claims to have believed there to be a human being behind the door, namely the mythical "intruder).

Incidentally, it's worth pointing out here that the indictment charged Pistorius with the murder of "a human being", with "namely, Reeva Steenkamp" being secondary. This was very deliberate on the part of the state, and is highly relevant in this discussion.


However as I've said before, the fact is that if the judge accepted Pistorius believed his life to be in danger (a factual finding rather than a legal one, and hardly unreasonable if the court accepted as a reasonable possibility that Pistorius believed an armed intruder to be in the toilet, as it did) the question of intent in relation to the intruder is moot, putative private defence being a defence to murder in those circumstances.

First bit in bold, I'd argue that the judge's discussion of the circumstances in which Pistorius shot and her acceptance that it was reasonably possible he believed there to be an armed intruder on the other side of the door are themselves evidence he believed his life to be in danger, simply because even a reasonable person in the position Pistorius was in at the moment when he shot would believe that. The difference is that person would have acted differently, not that they wouldn't have believed their life to be in imminent danger.

Also, when you mention the "use of proportionate force", that would mean proportionate force from Pistorius' subjective standpoint, I assume? In other words, proportionate force given he believed his life to be in danger, not proportionate force from the perspective of a reasonable person (because that would surely be culpable homicide?).

ETA: And one other thing worth mentioning is that the prosecution never challenged Pistorius' claim that he felt his life was under imminent threat from the intruder, because they always argued he knew it was Steenkamp. Therefore nothing had been put to the judge to challenge this belief in the first place; all she had to go on was his word that this was the case and the circumstances in which he believed himself to be, which the court had already accepted to be reasonably possible. On what grounds should she have believed beyond reasonable doubt that this wasn't true - what would constitute that proof, in your view?


But Masipa never even addressed (to the point of any sort of judgement/ruling) whether or not she believes Pistorius' claim that his life was in danger! She appears - from her orl judgement at least - to have made her entire judgement on murder vs culpable homicide on the narrower issue of intent. However, here it's very instructive to note that elsewhere in the judgement she seems to reject Pistorius' putative private defence of self-defence, since he testified on the stand to some sort of "automatic" pulling of the trigger.

Now, it may be that Masipa believes Pistorius to have genuinely been in fear of imminent mortal danger when he pulled the trigger, but she certainly hasn't communicated that belief yet. If she does hold that belief, then - as you say - it's a defence against the use of lethal force in self-defence, so the whole "intent" argument is moot. But the crucial factor is that this is not why she acquits Pistorius of murder in her oral judgement. Rather, she purely acquits him on the basis that he did not have the intent of killing or seriously injuring "the deceased" - i.e. Reeva Steenkamp - since the court rules that he genuinely thought that she was in the bedroom at the time.
 
I believe you're wrong though. It's handy to now be able to refer to a transcription of Masipa's oral judgement to illustrate this. Page 49 and 50 of that pdf (headed as page 3327 and 3328) contains the crucial passage that deals with dolus eventualis. It's not formatted in such a way as to enable an easy copy/paste into here, but in my view it's absolutely unequivocal in the way that Masipa deals with dolus eventualis: she states clearly that it only applies to "the deceased", and "reasons" that since the court finds that Pistorius truly believed "the deceased" to be in the bedroom at the time the shots were fired, he cannot therefore have had the intent to kill or seriously injure her. One can attach no other meaning to the words given on these pages. I grant that she then muddies the water by her ill-chosen words of "...the person behind the door, let alone the deceased", but the previous passages make it crystal clear (in my view) that she is misapplying the law in assessing intent purely against "the deceased", when in fact she should be assessing it against whomever Pistorius believed to be behind the door (and we know from his own defence that he claims to have believed there to be a human being behind the door, namely the mythical "intruder).

I agree that her reasoning explains why he couldn't have foreseen it was Reeva behind the door, but I think this has to be seen in the context of her previous finding: that his version that he believed it to be an intruder and that he believed his life was in danger was reasonably possible. As you say, it's useful to have the full text to refer to, and I noticed that immediately preceding the bit where she discusses whether he could've foreseen it was Reeva, she does specifically address whether or not Pistorius believed his life to be under threat (ugh, you're right that it's a pain to c&p):

In the present case, on his own version the accused suspected that an intruder had entered his house through the bathroom window. His version was that he genuinely, though erroneously, believed that his life and that of the deceased was in danger.

There is nothing in the evidence to suggest that this belief was not honestly entertained. I say this for the following reasons: The bathroom window was indeed open, so it was not his imagination at work when he thought he heard the window slide open. He armed himself with a loaded firearm and went to the direction of the noise. He heard a door slam shut. The door toilet was indeed shut when he fired four shots at it, after he heard a movement inside the toilet. On his version he was scared as he thought the intruder was coming out to attack him.

It's following this acceptance that it was reasonably possible both that Pistorius believed there was an intruder and that his own and Reeva's lives were in danger that she discusses whether he could have foreseen that "either the deceased or anyone else" would be killed by firing into the door. She then concludes with "It follows that the accused’s erroneous belief that his life was in danger excludes dolus."

Although I agree it's a little confusing, I think her discussion of dolus eventualis doesn't consider his intention to shoot at the intruder, because she's already accepted his claim of putative self-defence on that. Therefore she goes on to consider whether despite his belief that he was shooting at an intruder, he might have suspected that it could have been Reeva or anyone else (aside from the intruder). We'll see if this is clearer when the written ruling eventually comes out (I suspect it will be!).

Incidentally the whole concept of dolus eventualis is quite bizarre and fascinating - it's a two part test, where the accused not only has to foresee but also reconcile himself with the possibility he would kill. I read about a case the other day where the accused's dangerous driving history meant he was acquitted of murder (dolus eventualis) because the fact he'd driven dangerously before and got away with it meant he believed he was less likely to kill this time! Kind of nuts. Arguably, even if intent were considered in relation to an intruder, Pistorius might not meet that criteria given that he says he shot in a panic and without thinking. But as far as I can see, it's the putative self-defence option the judge is accepting rather than anything else.

Incidentally, it's worth pointing out here that the indictment charged Pistorius with the murder of "a human being", with "namely, Reeva Steenkamp" being secondary. This was very deliberate on the part of the state, and is highly relevant in this discussion.
Do you know if that would normally be written differently?

But Masipa never even addressed (to the point of any sort of judgement/ruling) whether or not she believes Pistorius' claim that his life was in danger! She appears - from her orl judgement at least - to have made her entire judgement on murder vs culpable homicide on the narrower issue of intent. However, here it's very instructive to note that elsewhere in the judgement she seems to reject Pistorius' putative private defence of self-defence, since he testified on the stand to some sort of "automatic" pulling of the trigger.

Now, it may be that Masipa believes Pistorius to have genuinely been in fear of imminent mortal danger when he pulled the trigger, but she certainly hasn't communicated that belief yet. If she does hold that belief, then - as you say - it's a defence against the use of lethal force in self-defence, so the whole "intent" argument is moot. But the crucial factor is that this is not why she acquits Pistorius of murder in her oral judgement. Rather, she purely acquits him on the basis that he did not have the intent of killing or seriously injuring "the deceased" - i.e. Reeva Steenkamp - since the court rules that he genuinely thought that she was in the bedroom at the time.
As above, she does consider whether his belief that his life was under threat was genuine. And really, once you accept he believed it was an intruder, that isn't a hard argument to make at all.

I also suspect that you yourself would accept that his belief that his life was in imminent danger is reasonably possible, once you also accept that he was standing in front a toilet door behind which he believed there to be an armed intruder, and that he heard a noise indicating that intruder was about to come out of the door. I think it's just the fact you don't believe his version in the first place that leads you (and many others) to question whether he really did think his life was in danger. And that, of course, is a completely different discussion!
 
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Skwinty - thanks for posting the transcript, most of which I have now read. It seems SA breaks things up and analyses facts like these differently from us. Anyhow, this is what I take issue with, starting on p.53:





Hmm, there is more than that but the forum software is having trouble loading it. You can read on from where I have highlighted the text. This part is where I disagree with the judge. Her idea is that a reasonable person would have called security. Utter nonsense! You might be dead by the time they showed up. She actually says it's OK to shoot if the intruder is hovering over the bed about to strike but really, this is judicial reasoning with no foundation whatever. It is clear that no expert's evidence was called by either side on how such a (perceived) threat should be dealt with. Her opinion only carries any weight because of its consequences for him.

And LJ, I don't think her reasoning is flawed, now I have read most of it. It seems they analyses things completely differently over there. For instance, a person acting in self defence here does have the requisite intent to kill or cause GBH but they also have a defence which trumps the charge. The South Africans conceptualise things differently - as though self defence negates intent. That seems to me to be wrong and liable to cause confusion. If you come at me with a knife and I shoot you through the heart, I intend to kill or seriously hurt you but I am not guilty of murder because I have a defence. The South Africans would claim I do not have the requisite intent. Weird.

What she is saying is that, given he was acting in the subjectively honest but unreasonable belief that his and Reeva's lives were in danger, he cannot have possessed the requisite intent for murder. Applying that analysis to an English case, he would go free as we don't have negligent homicide as part of our code. But in SA they do, which complicates the analysis both conceptually and otherwise.

And Skwinty, I still have found nothing about having to identify the threat first. If you can dig that out of the judgment I would appreciate it.
 
And LJ, I don't think her reasoning is flawed, now I have read most of it. It seems they analyses things completely differently over there. For instance, a person acting in self defence here does have the requisite intent to kill or cause GBH but they also have a defence which trumps the charge. The South Africans conceptualise things differently - as though self defence negates intent. That seems to me to be wrong and liable to cause confusion. If you come at me with a knife and I shoot you through the heart, I intend to kill or seriously hurt you but I am not guilty of murder because I have a defence. The South Africans would claim I do not have the requisite intent. Weird.

What she is saying is that, given he was acting in the subjectively honest but unreasonable belief that his and Reeva's lives were in danger, he cannot have possessed the requisite intent for murder. Applying that analysis to an English case, he would go free as we don't have negligent homicide as part of our code. But in SA they do, which complicates the analysis both conceptually and otherwise.[snip]

This is the part I was most confused about - how does self-defence relate to intent? I don't know if what makes that hard to understand is SA law or unclear reasoning by the judge (and from legal commentators, for that matter, none of whom have really addressed that).

I agree that she hasn't made an error: once you consider that "Reeva or anyone else" doesn't include the intruder, because she's already dealt with that issue, the logic makes sense. She's considering whether, despite his belief that there was an intruder, there was any way he could have foreseen that it would be anyone else and specifically Reeva behind the door. She concludes that there wasn't.

I think the key is that she frames the dolus eventualis discussion by first saying it was reasonably possible he thought there was an intruder and that his life was under threat, and concludes by stating that the belief his life was under threat excludes dolus eventualis.
 
This is the part I was most confused about - how does self-defence relate to intent? I don't know if what makes that hard to understand is SA law or unclear reasoning by the judge (and from legal commentators, for that matter, none of whom have really addressed that).

I agree that she hasn't made an error: once you consider that "Reeva or anyone else" doesn't include the intruder, because she's already dealt with that issue, the logic makes sense. She's considering whether, despite his belief that there was an intruder, there was any way he could have foreseen that it would be anyone else and specifically Reeva behind the door. She concludes that there wasn't.

I think the key is that she frames the dolus eventualis discussion by first saying it was reasonably possible he thought there was an intruder and that his life was under threat, and concludes by stating that the belief his life was under threat excludes dolus eventualis.
I think I agree although the concepts are unfamiliar so I may have it wrong. Check out this bit:

Masipa transcript p.46 said:
The current South African Law regarding criminal liability as set out in S v Mtshiza 1970 (3) SA 747A. On page 752 Holmes JA explains the legal position as follows, I leave out something:

“... nowadays criminal liability is not regarded as attaching to an act or a consequence unless it was attended by mens rea. Accordingly if A assaults B and in consequence B dies, A is not criminally responsible for his death unless:

a) He foresaw the possibility of resultant death, he had persisted in his deed, reckless, whether death ensued or not, or

b) He ought to have foreseen the reasonable possibility of resultant death.

In a) the mens rea is the type of intent known as dolus eventualis and the crime is murder. In b) the mens rea is culpa and the crime culpable homicide.”
Funny that foreseeability comes into it. We somehow manage without that over here. 'Intending' denotes wishing or wanting, not foreseeing. I shoot you. I want or wish for or seek to bring about a consequence. I intend that consequence. I intend the consequence whether acting in self defence or not.

I can see the idea behind the South African approach. Mens rea denotes some wrongful thought and a person who shoots in self defence does not have a wrongful thought so cannot have the requisite mens rea. The way we do it is to treat the mens rea (and the acts reuse) as being free of context: if I shoot you intending to kill or harm you I have all the law requires so far as wrongful intent is concerned but that is not the end of the matter, I may have one of the defences that trump the charge:

self defence
insanity
duress
necessity

and maybe others. In all those cases, except maybe insanity, there is the requisite intent but the law permits a defence on policy grounds. In SA, they split it up differently and introduce the defence into the analysis of intent.
 
LOL - nothing there, Skwint. Nothing in the judgment that remotely resembles the point you were making either.

Why would every point of law and evidence be in her judgment.:confused:

I think I will hop off this hamster wheel and resume lurking.
 
Why would every point of law and evidence be in her judgment.:confused:

I think I will hop off this hamster wheel and resume lurking.

Well, every relevant point should be. You claim that SA law imposes an obligation to identify the assailant, Oscar clearly did not do that and did not try to do it so, according to you, he should go down for what? Murder? Well, surely that ought to be addressed in the judgment since it's directly relevant.

I already know why it's not there though, because SA law cannot possibly be what you say it is. For a start, there would be interminable case law on the meaning of 'identify' (name and address, passport photo verified by a solicitor, production of at least two utility bills, social security number etc etc - what could it possibly mean?) not to mention all the situations in which it would be perfectly right and proper to blow the other guy' away without asking any questions at all, as the police are trained to do if circumstances require it.
 
I think I agree although the concepts are unfamiliar so I may have it wrong. Check out this bit:


Funny that foreseeability comes into it. We somehow manage without that over here. 'Intending' denotes wishing or wanting, not foreseeing. I shoot you. I want or wish for or seek to bring about a consequence. I intend that consequence. I intend the consequence whether acting in self defence or not.

I can see the idea behind the South African approach. Mens rea denotes some wrongful thought and a person who shoots in self defence does not have a wrongful thought so cannot have the requisite mens rea. The way we do it is to treat the mens rea (and the acts reuse) as being free of context: if I shoot you intending to kill or harm you I have all the law requires so far as wrongful intent is concerned but that is not the end of the matter, I may have one of the defences that trump the charge:

self defence
insanity
duress
necessity

and maybe others. In all those cases, except maybe insanity, there is the requisite intent but the law permits a defence on policy grounds. In SA, they split it up differently and introduce the defence into the analysis of intent.

Still slightly confused. :D

If I understand you right, you're saying that in the UK, someone who shot at what they thought was an intruder but who turned out to be an innocent person would still be considered to have the intent to kill the person, but putative self-defence (or whatever it's called in the UK) would be a defence against that?

Whereas in SA, the person in the same situation who successfully claimed putative self-defence would be considered not to have the intent to kill at all, hence why the judge doesn't consider that issue once she's stated she accepts the accused acted in putative self-defence.

FWIW this article seems to offer some support for that (I think?!):

In a case where the state has proven that an accused had shot and killed another person in his house in the absence of an attack on his life or property, it would be difficult to escape conviction for murder unless the accused is found to have acted in putative self-defence. Where an accused is found to have genuinely believed that his life was in danger and that he was using reasonable means to avert an attack on himself or his property, he may escape conviction for murder on the grounds that he lacked the requisite intention.

As intention is tested subjectively, the pivotal question would be what the actual state of mind of the accused was at the time when he killed the victim. If an accused genuinely but mistakenly believed that an attack was imminent or that his life was in danger, the court will find that he lacked the intention to be convicted of murder.
So once the judge decided Pistorius mistakenly believed an attack was imminent and/or that his life was in danger, she had no need to consider the issue of intention in relation to the phantom intruder? Therefore all references to intent re: dolus eventualis can relate only to either Reeva or some hypothetical other person, but not the intruder.
 
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Still slightly confused. :D

If I understand you right, you're saying that in the UK, someone who shot at what they thought was an intruder but who turned out to be an innocent person would still be considered to have the intent to kill the person, but putative self-defence (or whatever it's called in the UK) would be a defence against that?
Yes. We don't have putative self defence, though, because we don't need it, not having an offence of culpable homicide. I think they use it to distinguish real self defence from factually mistaken self defence. But I am not completely sure. Here, the rule is you are judged on the facts as you subjectively believed them to be (in all crimes except a narrow class we can forget about).

Whereas in SA, the person in the same situation who successfully claimed putative self-defence would be considered not to have the intent to kill at all, hence why the judge doesn't consider that issue once she's stated she accepts the accused acted in putative self-defence.
That is how I see it except I would replace the highlighted part with: not to have the requisite mens rea for the offence. There is an intent to kill but its not wrongful (so not rea).

FWIW this article seems to offer some support for that (I think?!):
In a case where the state has proven that an accused had shot and killed another person in his house in the absence of an attack on his life or property, it would be difficult to escape conviction for murder unless the accused is found to have acted in putative self-defence. Where an accused is found to have genuinely believed that his life was in danger and that he was using reasonable means to avert an attack on himself or his property, he may escape conviction for murder on the grounds that he lacked the requisite intention.

As intention is tested subjectively, the pivotal question would be what the actual state of mind of the accused was at the time when he killed the victim. If an accused genuinely but mistakenly believed that an attack was imminent or that his life was in danger, the court will find that he lacked the intention to be convicted of murder.


So once the judge decided Pistorius mistakenly believed an attack was imminent and/or that his life was in danger, she had no need to consider the issue of intention in relation to the phantom intruder? Therefore all references to intent re: dolus eventualis can relate only to either Reeva or some hypothetical other person, but not the intruder.
[/QUOTE]
The last bit seems confused (but may be correct!). It's simpler than that, I think. In SA, wrongful intent for murder incorporates an integral get-out clause that negates it - self defence, putative or real. There is intent but it's not wrongful (where we would say there is wrongful intent but that's not the end of the matter).

Thus, he made out his self defence claim but only the putative kind because he was not actually under any threat at all. So he is entitled to be acquitted of murder - of anybody - but SA still levels a charge of criminal carelessness at him which will stick (has stuck) if his actions in response to the threat were not reasonable, which is what the judge held.

The funny thing is that, on her analysis, he would be convicted of murder here because only reasonable and proportionate steps are permitted even if the accused wrongly but honestly believes in the supposedly dangerous state of affairs. It was not reasonable for him to go armed to the bathroom and fire when he had the alternative of calling security from the bedroom and staying put. In the same way, it was not reasonable for the farmer, Tony Martin, to fire at the traveller as he was running away from his home because he no longer posed any threat.
 
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Just harping on the judge's idea that he should have stayed in the bedroom and called security. What was he supposed to do if the intruder then came charging down the hallway shooting at him? Say, 'excuse me, can't you see I'm on the phone? Please have the goodness to wait until I have finished my call.'

The judge also thought there was nothing special about his disability and classified him as a fight (rather than a flight) person. Erm, excuse me? His options for flight were kind restricted by having no *********** legs. So he may have been a flight person forced into being a fight person by circumstances. Ever think of that, judge?
 
The judge also thought there was nothing special about his disability and classified him as a fight (rather than a flight) person. Erm, excuse me? His options for flight were kind restricted by having no *********** legs. So he may have been a flight person forced into being a fight person by circumstances. Ever think of that, judge?

Well, in that respect the judge was just agreeing with expert testimony (from Professor Wayne Derman) about Pistorius's character in general, not making a conclusion about him based on the specific events in question.
 
....
The judge also thought there was nothing special about his disability and classified him as a fight (rather than a flight) person. Erm, excuse me? His options for flight were kind restricted by having no *********** legs. So he may have been a flight person forced into being a fight person by circumstances. Ever think of that, judge?

Film of the reeactment shows Pistorius walking around quite capably on his stumps and even pointing his pistol while standing up. He was certainly capable of grabbing Reeva AND his gun and leaving his bedroom.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...e-enactment-video-aired-by-Australian-TV.html
 
In an interview with 20/20, a previous Pistorius girlfriend -- who slept in the same bed in the same house -- says she doesn't believe Pistorius' story. She says P. was controlling and intimidating, that he didn't keep the bedroom "pitch black" but left the curtains open, and that if he heard -- or thought he heard -- a noise, he would wake her and ask her about it. She also said that her family received condolences about her "death" because when her friends heard about Pistorius' dead girlfriend, they thought it must be her.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...ght-couldve/story?id=25428694&singlePage=true
 
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http://constitutionallyspeaking.co....ntion-to-kill-someone-behind-the-toilet-door/


"For me the puzzling part of the judgment is the reasoning employed by Judge Masipa to come to this conclusion. Amongst others, she found that all the evidence suggest that he was truly distressed about having killed Reeva Steenkamp. How could he subjectively have foreseen that he would kill her if after the fact he was so distressed?

But although this might show that he did not subjectively foresee that he would kill Reeva Steenkamp, it says nothing about subjectively foreseeing that he would kill who he had thought was an intruder hiding behind the door. Given all the evidence presented in court about Pistorius’s knowledge of guns and what the bullets he used would do to a person, it is unlikely in the extreme that Pistorius did not foresee that the person behind the door (who he might have thought was an intruder) would be killed.

I might be wrong or might have misheard, but to my mind the judge did not engage with this issue in sufficient detail to explain convincingly why she found that Pistorius did not have the dolus eventualis to kill an unknown person behind the toilet door."
 
I think I agree although the concepts are unfamiliar so I may have it wrong. Check out this bit:


Funny that foreseeability comes into it. We somehow manage without that over here. 'Intending' denotes wishing or wanting, not foreseeing. I shoot you. I want or wish for or seek to bring about a consequence. I intend that consequence. I intend the consequence whether acting in self defence or not.

I can see the idea behind the South African approach. Mens rea denotes some wrongful thought and a person who shoots in self defence does not have a wrongful thought so cannot have the requisite mens rea. The way we do it is to treat the mens rea (and the acts reuse) as being free of context: if I shoot you intending to kill or harm you I have all the law requires so far as wrongful intent is concerned but that is not the end of the matter, I may have one of the defences that trump the charge:

self defence
insanity
duress
necessity

and maybe others. In all those cases, except maybe insanity, there is the requisite intent but the law permits a defence on policy grounds. In SA, they split it up differently and introduce the defence into the analysis of intent.
.
I "foresee the possibility of impending death" every I get in my car and leave the driveway. But I have also "foreseen" ways to avoid the "impending death". Situational awareness for one, obeying the traffic laws, and a good seat-belt/harness, and a well-maintained car.
 
Just harping on the judge's idea that he should have stayed in the bedroom and called security. What was he supposed to do if the intruder then came charging down the hallway shooting at him? Say, 'excuse me, can't you see I'm on the phone? Please have the goodness to wait until I have finished my call.'

...
.
Shoot back!
He DID have that option!
And that would be legal.
 
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