Michael Brown shooting II

[TheL8Elvis]

A complete post from two days ago:

Considering the gun holds 11 bullets and 1 was fired at the car, that post is very clearly claiming that "there was no shooting from behind". Quite specifically "all 10 shots while brown faced wilson".
<snip>

The issues FPD weapon is a Sig Sauer P229, .40 cal, which holds 12+1

Which is, of course, not the same as 11.

And, we don't even (afaik) have confirmation that was the weapon used.

As I have previously stated, there may have been as many as 3 shots fired before the sequence heard on the audio recording.

And some of those may have been fired at brown at his back as he was fleeing.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

<snip>
And yet the previous poster does not once call Fudbucker a liar like they do to Unabogie. And yet they do it to Unabogie when the main claim Unabogie is discussing is clearly not a lie, and even the # part, the side issue is clearly not a lie because it is obviously an educated guess gotten from the audio!

The logical conclusion, very strongly supported by posts from last year, is that obfuscation is being used on posters that make posts that are favorable to one side one.

No, just using rational thinking to posit alternative scenarios against misdirected posts which claim to have "devastated" and "demolished" any possibility that wilson was actually defending himself.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Which is not the same as WAS NOT hit from behind.

As for your scenario, invisible pixies could have done it. Prove that scenario is inconsistent with the evidence.

Your scenario is inconsistent with 4 eye witnesses. Let's start there.

Sure, let's start there. Be specific. Here are 5 witnesses. What is it they say that is inconsistent with my scenario, but matched Unabogies?

No one has confirmed Brown was running AWAY from Wilson during those six shots.

Go read the witness statements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown#Accounts

Who confirms it ?
Dorian Johnson:
ollowing the initial gunshot, Johnson said Brown was able to free himself, at which point the two fled. According to Johnson, Wilson exited the vehicle, after which he fired a second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, according to Johnson, Brown turned around with his hands in the air and said, "I don't have a gun. Stop shooting!" Wilson then shot Brown several more times, killing him

No, that doesn't confirm it.

James McKnight
James McKnight said he witnessed the shooting and that Brown held his hands in the air just after he turned to face Wilson. "I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him. The officer was about six or seven feet away from him," McKnight said

No, that doesn't confirm it.

Michael Brady
he did not hear a gunshot or see what caused them to run. He also said that he saw Wilson get out of the patrol car and "start walking briskly while firing on Brown as he fled."[55]


No, that doesn't confirm it. But at least it does claim wilson shot at brown as he fled. Then again, the FPD claimed that as well.

Piaget Crenshaw
Piaget Crenshaw said that, from her vantage point, it appeared that Wilson and Brown were arm wrestling before the former shot Brown from inside his vehicle. Wilson then chased Brown for about 20 feet before shooting him again. Crenshaw stated, "I saw the police chase him ... down the street and shoot him down."[79] She added that when Brown then raised his arms, the officer shot him two more times, killing him.[80]

No, that doesn't confirm it.

Tiffany Mitchell
After the shot, the kid just breaks away. The cop follows him, kept shooting, the kid's body jerked as if he was hit. After his body jerked he turns around, puts his hands up, and the cop continues to walk up on him and continues to shoot until he goes all the way down," she said.[83]

No, that doesn't confirm it. But at least it does claim wilson shot at brown as he fled. Then again, the FPD claimed that as well.

So 2 out of 5 witnesses claim Wilson shot at brown from behind, but nothing on the number of shots.

And of course, the "fantasy scenario" is that wilson shot brown at the car, got out of the car, shot at him, chased him, and then brown stopped and faced wilson, then wilson shot him.

Which witness above make that impossible ?

 

[Aber]

No, just using rational thinking to posit alternative scenarios against misdirected posts which claim to have "devastated" and "demolished" any possibility that wilson was actually defending himself.

So are you claiming that no shots were fired at Brown when he was fleeing?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The arm graze wound could have come from behind.

Of course, that would mean that all the unlike all the rest of the shots where wilson pulled left, he would have had to have pulled right for that specific shot.

Or brown was doing a pirouette.

Or, it didn't come from behind. And the fact that it's a graze simply makes it difficult to determine from which direction the shot came. So baden hedged his bets.

Occams razor, anyone ?

Also, let's not forget:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...016ef8-26f4-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html
The autopsy by St. Louis County chief medical examiner Mary Case, released to state prosecutors late Friday, found that Brown, 18, had six gunshot wounds to the head and chest and was shot from the front

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So are you claiming that no shots were fired at Brown when he was fleeing?

No, I am not.

He was shot at at least once at the car. Perhaps 2 more times as he was fleeing. (shot at, not hit. he may have been hit either at the car or by one of these shots, but I explained above why I think a hit from behind is less likely)

Police agree wilson shot at brown while he was fleeing.

I'm simply putting forth that that brown could have been facing wilson for all 10 of the shots heard in the recording.

Some posters are putting forth the scenario where, from the recording, the first 6 shots are wilson firing at brown as he is running away, then the 3 second pause is brown stopping, turning and surrendering, and the last 4 shots are basically wilson executing him.

I am positing a scenario where :

• there was a shot at the car
• brown fleeing and wilson chasing and shooting at him 1 or 2 more times
• brown stops, turns to face wilson, and possibly says something or taunts him, as "josie" claims
• Brown comes towards wilson. Wilson fires 6 times.
• Brown stops. Perhaps starts to raise his hands. Then moves forward, maybe becuase he had just been shot and was falling down.
• Wilson reacts to brown moving towards him by firing the last 4 rounds in his gun. The last of which hit brown while he is falling.

I have no idea what actually happened. This is all made up. But it fits the recording, the claimed story by "josie" and fits pretty well with the witness statements.

It's relatively simple, believable, and fits what we know. And it may be completely wrong. But until we know how many shots were fired, until we hear wilsons actual claims, etc.,...

 

[This is The End]

Of course, that would mean that all the unlike all the rest of the shots where wilson pulled left, he would have had to have pulled right for that specific shot.

That logic only follows if this were TV land. You have zero idea how all the misses placed. You are applying the Texas Sharpshooters fallacy to your conclusions.

 

[This is The End]

I have no idea what actually happened. This is all made up.

Exactly.

 

[steve s]

So the claim is he was shot from behind?

Still trolling. What part of "could have" don't you understand?

Steve S

 

[Giz]

No, you have that wrong. You made the claim he was NOT shot from behind.

So you'll be providing proof he WAS NOT shot from behind, then ?

While it could have come from either front or back, it is likely it was made from his front. The reason being that shots made by a right handed shooter under time pressure or stress are most likely to be pulled to the left (because their finger is applying some torque rather than going straight back). The shooters left is to the targets right (when the target is facing them). All the other shots to Brown's body were pulled to the same side/ direction of center mass. .. it would be odd if the shot to the arm was different.

 

[steve s]

It does disprove the accounts. Johnson said Brown was shot "in the back". He wasn't shot in the back.

Tiffany Mitchell said that "the kid's body jerked as if he was hit from behind." She never said he was shot in the back, just from behind. If one of the arm wounds was inflicted from behind (which Dr. Baden has already said is possible), that could have made Brown's body jerk, causing witnesses to think he'd been hit in the back.

Steve S

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Or he might have jerked at the sound of the gunshot..

 

[Unabogie]

Or he might have jerked at the sound of the gunshot..

Which to any observer would look like the person was shot (See: every movie ever made for examples)

So if you're right, and he jerked at the sound of the shot, why does this completely discredit the witnesses as so many people have claimed?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The arm graze wound could have come from behind.

Still trolling. What part of "could have" don't you understand?

Steve S

Unabogie and others are not just saying saying "could have". By # of bullets fired and # of times hit, they are saying "did".

I'll just leave this here.

While it could have come from either front or back, it is likely it was made from his front. The reason being that shots made by a right handed shooter under time pressure or stress are most likely to be pulled to the left (because their finger is applying some torque rather than going straight back). The shooters left is to the targets right (when the target is facing them). All the other shots to Brown's body were pulled to the same side/ direction of center mass. .. it would be odd if the shot to the arm was different.

 

[Fudbucker]

No, the record shows that no disciplinary action was taken against Wilson, not that there no complaints.

Department policy was that complaints were not included in the officer's file.

The policy was changed in 2010.

 

[Fudbucker]

No, I am not.

He was shot at at least once at the car. Perhaps 2 more times as he was fleeing. (shot at, not hit. he may have been hit either at the car or by one of these shots, but I explained above why I think a hit from behind is less likely)

Police agree wilson shot at brown while he was fleeing.

I'm simply putting forth that that brown could have been facing wilson for all 10 of the shots heard in the recording.

Some posters are putting forth the scenario where, from the recording, the first 6 shots are wilson firing at brown as he is running away, then the 3 second pause is brown stopping, turning and surrendering, and the last 4 shots are basically wilson executing him.

I am positing a scenario where :

• there was a shot at the car
• brown fleeing and wilson chasing and shooting at him 1 or 2 more times
• brown stops, turns to face wilson, and possibly says something or taunts him, as "josie" claims
• Brown comes towards wilson. Wilson fires 6 times.
• Brown stops. Perhaps starts to raise his hands. Then moves forward, maybe becuase he had just been shot and was falling down.
• Wilson reacts to brown moving towards him by firing the last 4 rounds in his gun. The last of which hit brown while he is falling.

I have no idea what actually happened. This is all made up. But it fits the recording, the claimed story by "josie" and fits pretty well with the witness statements.

It's relatively simple, believable, and fits what we know. And it may be completely wrong. But until we know how many shots were fired, until we hear wilsons actual claims, etc.,...

Source for this?

"The first clear details from authorities came during a news briefing with St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar on Sunday, Aug. 10, the day after Brown was killed. (The county police took over the investigation from the Ferguson police the day of the shooting.)

Belmar briefly described “a physical confrontation” between Wilson and Brown. Wilson was in his car when he encountered Brown and a friend who were walking on the street, Belmar said. (Belmar did not elaborate on the nature of the encounter.) Brown “allegedly pushed” Wilson back into the car and “physically assaulted” Wilson, Belmar said. Following this, it appeared there was a struggle over Wilson’s gun, which was fired once inside the car, Belmar said. (Police have confirmed that Wilson was the only person to fire the gun and that Brown was unarmed.) Wilson got out of the car and shot and killed Brown, Belmar said.

The overall scene spanned 35 feet, Belmar said. And while he did not say how many times Brown was shot, it was “more than a few, he said. The next day, Belmar told reporters that Brown “was struck several times by gunfire,” but did not provide any additional details. Wilson has told people that he opened fire because he feared for his life after Brown charged at him."

If what I bolded were true, why isn't the Post including it in it's article "Here is Everything Police and Witnesses Said Happened"?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-said-happened-when-michael-brown-was-killed/

 

[Fudbucker]

So are you claiming that no shots were fired at Brown when he was fleeing?

Are you claiming there were?

 

[Unabogie]

Are you claiming there were?

That there were is, again, undisputed. We know, from witnesses and the police alike, that shots were fired as Brown ran away. Unless you're assuming Brown ran backwards, then what's the beef here?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Police agree wilson shot at brown while he was fleeing.

Source for this?
<snip>
If what I bolded were true, why isn't the Post including it in it's article "Here is Everything Police and Witnesses Said Happened"?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-said-happened-when-michael-brown-was-killed/

I can't say why the post didn't include it.

The information I have seen is from the times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/u...er-as-holder-schedules-visit.html?ref=us&_r=2
However, law enforcement officials say witnesses and forensic analysis have shown that Officer Wilson did sustain an injury during the struggle in the car.

As Officer Wilson got out of his car, the men were running away. The officer fired his weapon but did not hit anyone, according to law enforcement officials

 

[sgtbaker]

This isn't a case cracking question, just something I am curious about. In Johnson's account, Brown was shot once during the confrontation in the car. I know he said that he was shot and saw blood from the shot in the car, in the interview on the street. I believe he said it on the second television interview as well but I am not sure. Is it possible that the graze occurred in the car which accounts for the discrepancy in grouping of wounds? I would imagine it is more difficult to determine distance with a graze, especially without the clothing to test for GSR. Is that possible?