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Michael Brown Shooting

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jhunter1163 said:
Agreed. I once suffered a compound fracture of my ankle; it didn't start to really hurt until they got me to the ER, a good 15 minutes later. I knew I was hurt badly, though; I remember sitting on the ground, looking at my foot pointing backwards, and thinking "That doesn't look good." Didn't hurt though, at least not just then.
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Yours is the second example in this thread using "compound fracture" for explaining "it was worse than I thought at the time".

I think you both mean "multiple fracture" (I've had a couple of those myself).

:)
 
quadraginta said:
That's kinda the point of a trial, isn't it? To decide whether or not they committed a crime?
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No. It's to examine the evidence the government used to assert a person has committed a crime and give the accused an opportunity to present evidence to be considered.
 
Cylinder said:
No. It's to examine the evidence the government used to assert a person has committed a crime and give the accused an opportunity to present evidence to be considered.
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A trial is where the state endeavors to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant committed the crime/s they are charged with.

The accused does not have to present any evidence to the contrary, but sometimes it helps...
 
theprestige said:
[ . . . ]When I read that someone hired the most famous ME, my conclusion is that they're not looking for quality forensic medicine, they're looking for quality forensic PR. Why not hire the best ME? For that matter, why not just hire any competent ME? For that matter, what was wrong with the competence of the ME that did the first autopsy?
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At the end of the day what I want to know is where the first shot was fired.

The autopsy as reported, shows mr Brown was NOT shot in the back.
Are we agreed on this?
 
Jim_MDP said:
Yours is the second example in this thread using "compound fracture" for explaining "it was worse than I thought at the time".

I think you both mean "multiple fracture" (I've had a couple of those myself).

:)
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No, I mean "compound fracture" in the medical sense, i.e. bone showing. Ripped the point of my ankle right off the bone, and the broken edge broke the skin. I also tore all the ligaments in my ankle, too. Six months in a walking boot, and it still hurts me on cold mornings almost 30 years later.
 
jhunter1163 said:
Agreed. I once suffered a compound fracture of my ankle; it didn't start to really hurt until they got me to the ER, a good 15 minutes later. I knew I was hurt badly, though; I remember sitting on the ground, looking at my foot pointing backwards, and thinking "That doesn't look good." Didn't hurt though, at least not just then.
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I broke my finger (Boutonniere's fracture) last year. I didn't go to the doctor for a day but eventually the fact my finger looked obviously wrong sunk in and I went.

It may not take much macho, or hyped on adrenalin to ignore pain or a deformed finger. I'm pretty sure a "backward foot" wasn't something anyone would ignore. It affects the serious function of walking/standing.

If that "something wrong" involved your eye, or your vision, it's a lot more worrisome than 'pain'. An officer who was "severely beaten" including the claim of a punch to the face that resulted in an orbital fracture is not going to stand around unaffected just because of adrenalin or macho.

The eye swelling alone would cause a person to put an ice pack to one's face. A severely beaten officer would be attended to by the EMTs or medics whether he wanted to be treated or not. The other officers at the scene would make him because that's what cops do when they see a "severely beaten face" on a coworker.

I can predict the progression of certain thread comments now: the fracture will be a lie (it just is, get over it), so forumites will fall back on the 'severely beaten' claim. Evidence of a single hit to the face will look to them like Zimmerman's little head cuts were evidence of life threatening repeated head bashing. Then that will switch to, it doesn't matter how serious the injury wasn't, it only matters that Wilson thought the injury was severe.:rolleyes:


With a blowout fracture you'll see a red sclera fairly early, and/or, an eye that doesn't move right. You look up, and the affected eye doesn't move. Your vision is double. Like the backward foot, fear of damage to vision is not ignored. Even if Wilson ignored it, the people around him wouldn't.


http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforum/atlas/photos/BlowoutFx1.jpg
http://www.oculist.net/downaton502/prof/ebook/duanes/pages/v5/ch087/005f.html
http://www.eyesurgeryinberkshire.co.uk/d_trauma/p7hg_img_1/fullsize/nn1_fs_fs.jpg
http://nashvillelidsurgery.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/blowout-fracture-page-before-300x225.jpg
 
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pakeha said:
At the end of the day what I want to know is where the first shot was fired.

The autopsy as reported, shows mr Brown was NOT shot in the back.
Are we agreed on this?
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No; the bullet that caused the graze wound may or may not have been fired from behind (the evidence is inconclusive on this point). We can agree, though, that the fatal shots were fired from the front, as were three of the four arm shots.
 
jhunter1163 said:
No, I mean "compound fracture" in the medical sense, i.e. bone showing. Ripped the point of my ankle right off the bone, and the broken edge broke the skin. I also tore all the ligaments in my ankle, too. Six months in a walking boot, and it still hurts me on cold mornings almost 30 years later.
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Quite right. I was hesitant about including yours as you described immediately going to the ER as opposed to the other post which fell in line with the other examples in this thread ala... "it was a couple days before I realized how bad it was." Not something I would believe with an actual compound fracture. :p
 
tsig said:
The hilited statements are attempts to justify the shooting all from the first page.
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I was responding to newyorkguy, who said,

newyorkguy said:
I understand the relentless snark from the people who are arguing this was a justifiable shooting and have been doing so since almost the first day.

Even the police haven't said it was justifiable. They haven't said anything one way or the other. A couple of eyewitnesses, plus Brown's companion, came forward to say the shooting looked bad, the shooting looked excessive. Yet no one on the 'other' side, the official side, has said yet that the shooting was justified. All they've said is, they're investigating it.
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With the exception of distracted1's post (more on that in a moment), all your cites are arguing that the shooting might have been justifiable. This is very different from nyg's claim that people were arguing "this was justifiable".

And distracted1's argument is supported by the police giving a justification for the shooting, which flatly contradicts nyg's argument that the police have offered no such justification.

Finally, it seems like none of the posts you cited have much "relentless snark" at all, just sober speculations about what might have happened.

Contra nyg, I think a good understanding of the "relentless snark" that has emerged in this thread must take into account the willful rejection by some, of any speculation that deviates from the Narrative of Saint Anthony.
 
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theprestige,
Thank you for a concise clarification to the rebuttal of newyorkguy's comments.

The broad brush, with the exaggeration bristles ten to be whipped out, the more these thousand plus post threads evolve..

Now if we could just have a new thread in Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology , about the intricacies & ( delayed ) manifestations of physical trauma...


Does Ginger ever post in that forum?
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
. A severely beaten officer would be attended to by the EMTs or medics whether he wanted to be treated or not. The other officers at the scene would make him because that's what cops do when they see a "severely beaten face" on a coworker.
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'Severely beaten' is a relative and inexact description, from what I've read he took a shot to the face which caused swelling. Whether it was an 'orbital blowout fracture' or not isn't very important in my opinion, I figure we'll find out soon enough who was right between the 'Gateway Pundit' and 'Little Green Footballs' site, a blogosphere war I could care less about.

However according to what's been posted to this thread, he was attended to by the EMTs and quickly removed from the scene.
 
Jim_MDP said:
Quite right. I was hesitant about including yours as you described immediately going to the ER as opposed to the other post which fell in line with the other examples in this thread ala... "it was a couple days before I realized how bad it was." Not something I would believe with an actual compound fracture. :p
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Oh yes. I wasn't so high on adrenalin that I didn't know I was seriously injured. But to get back to the topic, obviously Wilson wasn't incapacitated by the fracture, if there was one. And, regardless of the degree of incapacity, once Brown attacked Wilson he was guilty of assaulting a police officer, which is a felony in Missouri. I seem to recall someone posting above that in Missouri, it is legal to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
A severely beaten officer would be attended to by the EMTs or medics whether he wanted to be treated or not. The other officers at the scene would make him because that's what cops do when they see a "severely beaten face" on a coworker.
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This is just Expectation Lego, the game where you have a big pile of bricks, and you pick and choose the ones you want to construct your edifice.

SG's edifice combines the expectation that FPD is so dysfunctional and incompetent as to both enable Wilson's de facto racist homicide and to badly botch their public response to the incident, with the expectation that FPD is so functional and competent as to provide prompt and proper care for Wilson's injuries.

To be honest, I think that what we've seen of the FPD's behavior over the past couple of weeks goes a long way towards undermining any expectation that Wilson's injuries would have been treated the way SG says they should have been treated. Therefore, we cannot deduce, or even infer, anything from the quality of care Wilson received on-site. If SG thinks we can, she's wrong.
 
theprestige said:
I was responding to newyorkguy, who said,



With the exception of distracted1's post (more on that in a moment), all your cites are arguing that the shooting might have been justifiable. This is very different from nyg's claim that people were arguing "this was justifiable".

And distracted1's argument is supported by the police giving a justification for the shooting, which flatly contradicts nyg's argument that the police have offered no such justification.

Finally, it seems like none of the posts you cited have much "relentless snark" at all, just sober speculations about what might have happened.

Contra nyg, I think a good understanding of the "relentless snark" that has emerged in this thread must take into account the willful rejection by some, of any speculation that deviates from the Narrative of Saint Anthony.
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Saying the shooting might have been justifiable, is not arguing that the shooting is justifiable?


Really?
 
Wilson would have been attended to almost immediately by the EMTs that arrived at 12:04.
That's less than 5 minutes after Brown was shot.

Wilson was probably on the way to the hospital pretty quickly after the shooting.
 
jhunter1163 said:
No; the bullet that caused the graze wound may or may not have been fired from behind (the evidence is inconclusive on this point).
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The likelihood of this seems remote at best. If that grazing shot occurred while Brown was facing away form Wilson, it means that Wilson was aiming slightly to his right. If Brown then turned around after that grazing shot, Brown's right side is now on Wilson's left. That means Wilson would suddenly switch to aiming slightly to his left in order to get all/most of the bullets into Brown's right side.
 
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tsig said:
Saying the shooting might have been justifiable, is not arguing that the shooting is justifiable?


Really?
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Really. There is a difference in both the wording and meaning.

For example, arguing that there might have been a second shooter in Dallas is not equivalent to arguing there was a second shooter.
 
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tsig said:
Saying the shooting might have been justifiable, is not arguing that the shooting is justifiable?


Really?
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Yes, really. The one constructs a thought experiment which results in justification, the other asserts something about what actually happened. It's the difference between "might have been" and "is."

Michael Brown is dead. Jesus might have wanted it that way.
 
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