Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[anglolawyer]

I know part 3 of that video got lost in transport. I didn't know that there was a part 4. Have you got links?

I have nothing that Methos can't find faster. Four hours may have been an exaggeration.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill the mattress was moved by the detectives after the CSI was supposed to be done. Nencini's mistake, if he in fact made it as you describe, has absolutely nothing to do with the second search and does nothing to shine light on the value of forensics found after the non-CSI search.

Grinder - I swear, you confuse me with someone else. But it is good to see the old Grinder back with the strawman arguments intact.

Nencini's mistake had nothing to do with the second search? You're kiiding, right? The bra-clasp is a result of the second search, and the missing mattress is testament to the activity in that room either as a result of the shut down of the CSI (only to be resumed again in mid-December) or unknown activity inbetween.

Regardless, it speaks of a non-secure room which makes Filomena's rummaging of her own room back on Nov 2 (pre-body discovery) look pedestrian.

I struggle with the point you're thrying to make here, so obviously at odds with the timeline. A missing mattress will roil a room just to move it. It will compromise a crime-scene for any meaningful DNA-forensics, when taken osmotically with all the other stuff found in different places on Dec 18..

While I don't accept the case against Raf, you misrepresent what the case against him is. You are purposely misrepresenting in order to deceive and we all know what that means.

No I'm not, and no we don't.

They say the footprint on the bathmat matches. They say he lied about staying in all night. They say he turned off his phones to avoid detection. They say that he called the police after the postals arrived. They say that his knife had Meredith's DNA on it.

Nencini even says, straight out of the blue, that Raffaele's DNA is on that knife. No one, not Mignini, Comodi, Crini, Massei, no one said that before Nencini pulled it out of thin air.

I don't believe the clasp is good evidence and state that so that no one here gets confused, but I don't believe that it was not possible to have discovered something on the 18th of value. No one has refuted that had they found Raf's semen or blood on the clasp or elsewhere it would have been great evidence. Same is true of anyone else like Koko or his buddy.

I struggle with the point you're making. The movement of the mattress alone, the finding of Meredith's track-jacket in the hamper demonstrates a corrupted crime-scene.

This is a strange place to find something nice to say about Stefanoni, just to take a poke at me.

 

[Desert Fox]

I don't believe the clasp is good evidence and state that so that no one here gets confused, but I don't believe that it was not possible to have discovered something on the 18th of value. No one has refuted that had they found Raf's semen or blood on the clasp or elsewhere it would have been great evidence. Same is true of anyone else like Koko or his buddy.

I struggle with the point you're making. The movement of the mattress alone, the finding of Meredith's track-jacket in the hamper demonstrates a corrupted crime-scene.

This is a strange place to find something nice to say about Stefanoni, just to take a poke at me.

I realize something else about Grinder's argument. . . .He is suggesting that the investigators are incompetent enough to miss a bra clasp covered in blood and/or semen the first time

 

[Dan O.]

I just create a bookmark http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281429&page=200. That automatically takes me to the last page in the thread. And then work backward from there. Usually I am only a page or two behind. Unless the page is larger than 200. I guess I could create a page =500. The thread never goes that high.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176868&page=627

 

[Methos]

I have nothing that Methos can't find faster. Four hours may have been an exaggeration.

Not for all the videos that are available
Nov 2, 2007: 19.44 min
Nov 3, 2007 pt.1: 20.14 min
Nov 3, 2007 pt.2: 22.44 min
Nov 16, 2007: 52.00 min
Dec 18, 2007 pt.1: 54.12 min
Dec 18, 2007 pt.2: 118.22 min

 

[acbytesla]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176868&page=627

They've been breaking it up ever since. But ok, you got me. page=999

 

[Grinder]

For all we know they are on the clasp - there are unidentified profiles after all. Anyway, I'm afraid I wouldn't consider it significant evidence, no. There's too much contamination and disruption in that crime scene for any DNA evidence collected in December to be compelling as far as I'm concerned. Wasn't the cottage broken into between the two collection dates? Plus the lab work seems incompetent. I don't think Rudy's DNA collected in December should be admissible either - they screwed up.

Please ecplain where the contamination could possibly have come from. While Novelli's demand to explain where Meredith's DNA could have come from the DNA of Koko or another wouldn't be explained in the same way.

There is a picture by Barbie that many believe indicates the cottage was entered but there is no evidence that the cottage was burgled and most think that the police entered it without recording the entrance.

Do you think that someone carried Rudi's DNA into the cottage and rubbed it on some of Meredith's stuff? They had all the evidence they needed on him as well as the Skype call and I believe he told the police in more than one country that he was there when she was murdered. He admitted dumping shoes in Germany.

If they found a hidden stash of someone's (e.g. Rudy's) clothes, or the knife, somewhere other than the cottage, that would be significant. But the cottage was completely trashed, clothes and shoes all over the place - bloody items mixed with non-bloody. Any amount of DNA transfer could have occurred, and who knows who the residents of that cottage came into contact with in the preceding months?

While LCN DNA is very easily transferred not so much with plain old DNA and if it was found in certain forms it would absolutely solid evidence.

The last remark would indicate no LCN DNA could ever be used. You would say that Koko would claim he had a beer at Le Chic and must have transferred DNA to the glass which Amanda picked up and brought home and put it on the towel which Meredith touched and then put on the clasp?

I think people here are overdoing the contamination angle. The residents of the house are different from people that had never been in the place and had Koko's DNA been found the first day the same theory of meeting a resident would apply.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder, you said upthread the bra clasp discovery was unrelated to the shoe ring thing. How do you know this? My understanding of the sequence is:

1 shoe ring discovery
2 Francesco and relative blab about it on phone
3 Cops pick that up
4 Cops 'find' clasp
5 Family goes public with shoe rings
6 Cops announce clasp result

The phone intercepts of the Sollecito's call must have included their discussing the shoe ring discovery. The visit was planned in advance.

I know this from reporting at the time and discussions over the last 7 years.

When did the police or the family discover the shoe box at Rudi's. When did Rudi admit he ditched the shoes in Germany?

Anyway I'm not giving up Mariner time to find the cites and if you and yours wish to believe that they found out the shoes didn't match until the day before and then set up the visit feel free.

 

[Grinder]

I realize something else about Grinder's argument. . . .He is suggesting that the investigators are incompetent enough to miss a bra clasp covered in blood and/or semen the first time

And you don't? As usual we have hyperbole as I didn't say "covered" with semen or blood.

Let's say that the bloody top recovered on the 18th had a small semen stain that matched Rudi, Raf or someone else why would the moving of the mattress or anything else contaminate in that way.

It is totally obvious that something of value could have been found on the 18th.

Yes I would believe that the PLE or ICSI could overlook big time evidence. As proof I give you the bra clasp and the bloody clothes.

 

[RWVBWL]

I found this long ago post from Fine a moment ago,
any chance that Diocletus can have a look at it?

"Charlie
This entry from your list of samples taken from Meredith's bedroom:

"Rep. 111: Gummy white substance on left wall of wardrobe .... No profile"

This appears to be chewing gum. But if chewing gum shouldn't it have revealed a DNA profile of the person---Meredith or an assailant---who had chewed the gum? Did the prosecution or defense ever incorporate this "gummy white substance" into a crime scenario?"
///


Reply from Charlie Wilkes:
"I'm not aware of any attention being paid to this, because it didn't yield a profile. It seems like it could have been a number of things, maybe some kind of adhesive or cosmetic."


Hey Diocletus, or anyone else:
What do you think?
Gum?
Cosmetics?
Adhesive?
Weird that apparently no attention was paid to this...
RW

I'm still curious of this possible gum found on the left side of Meredith's wardrobe that Fine mentioned years ago.

Wasn't Meredith found lying on the floor near the left side of her wardrobe? Sure she was.

Where was this possible chewing gum found?
Down near the ground, nearly level with her head?

If so,
why discard gum there?
Because you wanted to kiss and at knife point make out with a girl you were going to rape?

Or was this possible chewing gum found where a person,
(standing upright and going thru their own clothes),
would hide gum, near hand level or even higher,
if the taste had gone stale and they were getting rid of it and just did not discard it in the trash bin?

But,
but if that is gum,
and it was found near her body,
well might it have come from an assailant, as Fine wrote of years ago?
Just wonderin', again...
RW


PS-I do keep in mind that Miss Kercher had only lived in her bedroom for a coupla months, heck, that substance, if gum, could have a simple explanation and be from any # of people who mighta lived there before.

That same simple explanation could also account for unattributed DNA found in her bedroom after the cops lifted and removed her mattress, for obviously Meredith, renting a bedroom in a college town, slept on a bed that others too had slept on, right? Or did she buy a new mattress, bed sheets, and duvet too when she rented the bedroom from Filomena and Laura? Don't bed mattresses harbor plenty of shed DNA? How many people slept on that rented mattress? When was her bra clasp collected, after the bedroom mattress was removed? Hmmmm....


.

 

[Grinder]

Nencini's mistake had nothing to do with the second search? You're kiiding, right? The bra-clasp is a result of the second search, and the missing mattress is testament to the activity in that room either as a result of the shut down of the CSI (only to be resumed again in mid-December) or unknown activity inbetween.

Of course Nencini was talking about the clasp recovered in the second search but his mistake has nothing to do with the results being contaminated. He just made a mistake although I've yet seen the link to his words.

Regardless, it speaks of a non-secure room which makes Filomena's rummaging of her own room back on Nov 2 (pre-body discovery) look pedestrian.

What would you suggest the PP should have done when they were shown the break-in? Had the ICSI found Rudi's hair and blood on the broken window do you think F would have compromised that by looking to see what if anything was stolen

I struggle with the point you're thrying to make here, so obviously at odds with the timeline. A missing mattress will roil a room just to move it. It will compromise a crime-scene for any meaningful DNA-forensics, when taken osmotically with all the other stuff found in different places on Dec 18..

Quicquid. Obviously finding LCN DNA from residents of the house becomes of very little value after the tossing but not of no value under circumstances explained above.

No I'm not, and no we don't.

Yes you are. The bra clasp isn't the only evidence against Raf.

Nencini even says, straight out of the blue, that Raffaele's DNA is on that knife. No one, not Mignini, Comodi, Crini, Massei, no one said that before Nencini pulled it out of thin air.

And point is? Nencini, still haven't seen his own words, made a huge embarrassing mistake that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

I struggle with the point you're making. The movement of the mattress alone, the finding of Meredith's track-jacket in the hamper demonstrates a corrupted crime-scene.

This is a strange place to find something nice to say about Stefanoni, just to take a poke at me.

Please show me where I said something nice about Steffy.

 

[Methos]

IIRC it was stolen much later when the cottage was broken into and people lit candles and had some sort of rite. I think it was a Lutheran or Methodist rite

First came the rite:
La repubblica Feb 18, 2009: Meredith, incursione nella casa del delitto per terra coltelli e una candela, forse un rito
then the matress and the knives Knox had in the suitcase under her bed were stolen:
La repubblica Mar 21, 2009: Perugia, giallo nella casa del delitto Rubato il materasso e i coltelli di Meredith

 

[Desert Fox]

Yes you are. The bra clasp isn't the only evidence against Raf.

Refresh my memory. . . .What other evidence is there?

 

[JREF2010]

Please ecplain where the contamination could possibly have come from. While Novelli's demand to explain where Meredith's DNA could have come from the DNA of Koko or another wouldn't be explained in the same way.

There is a picture by Barbie that many believe indicates the cottage was entered but there is no evidence that the cottage was burgled and most think that the police entered it without recording the entrance.

Do you think that someone carried Rudi's DNA into the cottage and rubbed it on some of Meredith's stuff? They had all the evidence they needed on him as well as the Skype call and I believe he told the police in more than one country that he was there when she was murdered. He admitted dumping shoes in Germany.



While LCN DNA is very easily transferred not so much with plain old DNA and if it was found in certain forms it would absolutely solid evidence.

The last remark would indicate no LCN DNA could ever be used. You would say that Koko would claim he had a beer at Le Chic and must have transferred DNA to the glass which Amanda picked up and brought home and put it on the towel which Meredith touched and then put on the clasp?

I think people here are overdoing the contamination angle. The residents of the house are different from people that had never been in the place and had Koko's DNA been found the first day the same theory of meeting a resident would apply.

You either go with C&V or Stefonani, and if on a jury I'd been more open to the lab being contaminated. But the clasp was stepped on too and we've all seen enough pictures of the shoes standing in blood and out on the terrace and everywhere else.

In short a severely compromised crime scene by the forensic team, in addition to everyone else.

And as far as contamination, is it really needed, because if you study the mixed peaks and include peaks Setfonani ignored the profile could be anyone.

Re-apply the fake video skit of the bad acting and playing pass the clasp around, only leaves me thinking corruption.

Add to the fact it was shortly after them realizing they had nothing on Raffaele, when the shoe print became Rudys because the forensic team can t count circles on shoes either....they zoomed back to the cottage and miraculously found the bra clasp!

only a guiltard could believe Stefonani's work.

 

[Bill Williams]

Of course Nencini was talking about the clasp recovered in the second search but his mistake has nothing to do with the results being contaminated. He just made a mistake although I've yet seen the link to his words.

Seriously. Sometimes I think you're simply going for laughs.

Nencini's mistake had everything to do with the possibility of the clasp being contaminated. We've been through this 100 times. The whole reason is to say that the non-Raff, non-Meredith DNA found on the clasp is there by innocent means, not contamination... the first Y-haplotype (non-Raff) Nencini guesses is from Meredith's boyfriend, because Meredith had a normal sex-life for someone her age. Does Nencini prove this? No. He assumes it. There's no evidence at all WHO this non-Raff haplotype belongs to.... The other two Y-Haplotypes Nencini similarly guesses are from Meredith's "amica", again there by innocent means.... although Nencini doesn't explain why two women would be normally handling Meredith's bra.... even before considering that other screamingly obvious mistake Nencini made... or that Nencini is NOT relying on ANY forensics to make this stupid claim. He just asserts it without blushing.

.... all to explain away the defence claim of contamination.

His mistake had everything to do with the results being contaminated, which he was trying to explain away.

What would you suggest the PP should have done when they were shown the break-in? Had the ICSI found Rudi's hair and blood on the broken window do you think F would have compromised that by looking to see what if anything was stolen

Huh!? It was not said about Filomena that she was "looking". The word used was "rummaging".

John Follain, the one most friendly to the police, says on p. 70: "While Filomena was rummaging through her things....". On the page before, Filomena was said to have opened and closed all the drawers to double check what was missing (or not). Again on page 70, Follain relates that Filomena found : "bits of broken glass from the window were scattered both underneath and on top of the pile of her things on the floor."

This implies that she was picking things up, and perhaps not even using sterile tweezers to do it!

I am not suggesting that the PP should have done anything. What is of interest to the case is that NOTHING that the postal police said in court was actually true. No, they did NOT arrive before Raffaele called 112. No, they did NOT see glass only on top of things in Filomena's room.... because when Filomena rummaged around and started lifting things, lo and behold glass was underneath. How would Battistelli have known if there was no glass underneath unless he, too, rummaged rather than simply looked?

Battistelli said he'd not interfered in the murder room, namely that he did not track comtaminants into Merediths room - because he said he did not go in. This, despite other witnesses saying he actually did (did Battistelli then just lie?), and this leaves aside that it would have been the height of incompetence for Battistelli NOT to have gone in just to check under the blanket to see if the poor woman was still alive!!!!!

So what are you talking about?

Quicquid. Obviously finding LCN DNA from residents of the house becomes of very little value after the tossing but not of no value under circumstances explained above.

Huh?

Yes you are. The bra clasp isn't the only evidence against Raf.

And the other evidence is..........?

And point is? Nencini, still haven't seen his own words, made a huge embarrassing mistake that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

Please show me where I said something nice about Steffy.

You said that, "I don't believe that it was not possible to have discovered something on the 18th of value," which is perhaps the only possible way to say something nice about Stefanoni.

..... and Nencini's dumb words are about him discounting contamination, which is precisely the subject being discussed - the missing mattress on Deb 18 being the sure sign of a room now completely compromised forensicly.

 

[Grinder]

You either go with C&V or Stefonani, and if on a jury I'd been more open to the lab being contaminated. But the clasp was stepped on too and we've all seen enough pictures of the shoes standing in blood and out on the terrace and everywhere else.

I think you misunderstood the entire exchange. It was about finding someone else s DNA on the 18th such as Koko or another Albanian. No one is accepting Steffy's work currently discussing.

 

[Grinder]

Nencini's mistake had everything to do with the possibility of the clasp being contaminated.

His mistake as you claim is that he attributed male evdience to females. The mistake would be exactly the same if contamination wasn't an issue.

His mistake had everything to do with the results being contaminated, which he was trying to explain away.

quicquid

Huh!? It was not said about Filomena that she was "looking". The word used was "rummaging".

You think because Follain wrote it, it has extra value, funny. She was asked to LOOK and see what was missing and she did that. At any rate you have in the past tried to make her actions create a situation whereby the whole room was spoiled and you are just wrong. Had the missing hair or blood on the window been tested it would have been perfectly good evidence.

And the other evidence is..........?

Ask and answered. It is a pure lie to say there was no evidence against Raf except the clasp

You said that, "I don't believe that it was not possible to have discovered something on the 18th of value," which is perhaps the only possible way to say something nice about Stefanoni.

What a daft statement. Had they found a bit of semen on Meredith's top that would have been good evidence even on the 18th. It has nothing to do with Steffy or anybody. The discussion is about whether or not evidence of value could have been found on the 18th and it obviously could and it doesn't matter who was leading the discussion.

..... and Nencini's dumb words are about him discounting contamination, which is precisely the subject being discussed - the missing mattress on Deb 18 being the sure sign of a room now completely compromised forensicly.

perhaps glasses would be in order - the mattress wasn't missing only moved - and I repeat had certain things been found no matter what compromise had occurred they would still be good evidence. Would Koko's semen on Meredith's top have been of value? You love the absolute proclamations but you are wrong.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think you misunderstood the entire exchange. It was about finding someone else s DNA on the 18th such as Koko or another Albanian. No one is accepting Steffy's work currently discussing.

I did ask nice "What evidence do you see against Raff other than the contaminated bra clasp?" I cannot recall anything else.

 

[Bill Williams]

His mistake as you claim is that he attributed male evdience to females. The mistake would be exactly the same if contamination wasn't an issue.




quicquid



You think because Follain wrote it, it has extra value, funny. She was asked to LOOK and see what was missing and she did that. At any rate you have in the past tried to make her actions create a situation whereby the whole room was spoiled and you are just wrong. Had the missing hair or blood on the window been tested it would have been perfectly good evidence.



Ask and answered. It is a pure lie to say there was no evidence against Raf except the clasp



What a daft statement. Had they found a bit of semen on Meredith's top that would have been good evidence even on the 18th. It has nothing to do with Steffy or anybody. The discussion is about whether or not evidence of value could have been found on the 18th and it obviously could and it doesn't matter who was leading the discussion.



perhaps glasses would be in order - the mattress wasn't missing only moved - and I repeat had certain things been found no matter what compromise had occurred they would still be good evidence. Would Koko's semen on Meredith's top have been of value? You love the absolute proclamations but you are wrong.

There's obviously a fine point in all this that I am missing. It could be an important fine point, but from this chair it's just not there.

Good luck.

 

[Grinder]

I did ask nice "What evidence do you see against Raff other than the contaminated bra clasp?" I cannot recall anything else.

This isn't a list of evidence that I think is good but rather evidence used.

The bloody footprint on the bathmat.

The false alibi as per Curatolo.

The knife of Raf's found with Meredith's DNA on it.

Calling the Carabinier after the PP arrived. (Massei passed on this)

Saying he pricked Meredith with the knife.

Turning off his phone.

I'm sure there is more but the above should do.