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How/why did monotheism evolve?

[ . . . ]The later mixture of Christianity, or Judaism, into the Roman cultures is vastly different in evolution as in such we are now looking at something more akin to the 1960's America ingesting Indian and Asian religions into their own forms as opposed to looking at how the comparative relation between Samaria and Judah in relation to effectively differing takes of the same religion. [ . . . ]

Thanks for your input, JaysonR. As always, very interesting to read.
When can we actually date Mediterranean mono-theistic movements?

Wiki tells us
The oldest writings of Judaism that survive directly date from the Hellenistic period. This includes Hebrew and Aramaic papyri with biblical fragments such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Greek documents such as the Septuagint. Scholars contend that the development of a strict monotheism was the result of cultural diffusion between Persians and Hebrews, or as a result of the contact of Israelite and Greek cultures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism

Can the monotheistic movements be considered independently of their interaction with the Hellenistic world?

I come late to this, of course and it's a new idea to me that Judaic monotheism can only be dated to the 8th century.
 
Hey there Pakeha,

Always glad to be of help. :)

Alright, so you dig into really good queries, as usual!
So let's just dive in.
When can we actually date Mediterranean mono-theistic movements?
As was humorously outlined earlier, the evident "first" goes to Egypt around the 1400-1300 BCE range with Amenhotep IV Akhenaten.

Some consider Marduk of Babylon to be the "first", but I would hazard this assignment as it does not appear that any direct and overt interest was made to remove other deities from worship, or any lowering of tolerance, but instead an escalating of Marduk's position in the pantheon ranks ending in Marduk taking the leading role by around 1500-1300 BCE ranges; though possibly somewhat earlier around 1700 BCE ranges - it's a bit difficult to discern.

However, Marduk's relation is more akin to El's relation to the Canaanite pantheon, or Zeus's relation to the Greek pantheon for folks not familiar with the Canaanite pantheon.

Aten's position, under Akhenaten, is like El or Zeus, but then he takes it a step further and removes monetary funding and official support from the other deity priesthoods.
Once again, we find that the "break" from polytheism isn't uniform and indeed we still find plenty of lesser artifacts from this time period in Egypt which indicate that a continued worshiping of other deities persisted, but at a greatly reduced grandeur.

The most notable shift, then, was in the political theater and not exactly in the common populace; for in the political theater Akhenaten had funneled the power of the divine effectively unto himself and not to a range of varying priesthoods allied to given deities of varying values and psychological dispositions.

Once again, we find the event of stress plays a role here.
It is often easy to miss when looking at Egypt as our common perception of Egypt is that it was so big and mighty that it ran as the default super power in its region until the Romans came along.
This, however, is an idea left to us from the explorations of the 19th c CE before we uncovered and learned much more about the dynamic politics of the non-Greek and non-Roman regions of the Mediterranean region.

Prior to Akhenaten the battles with the Hittite empire were not going very well and the contests over the Levant region had stalled out quite a bit.
It should be pointed out that Egypt was under such stress from in-fighting and external impotence (meaning: their ability to push military might outside of Egypt) that not long after Akhenaten's reign was finished Egypt was shocking the Hittite empire with a request for a treaty by marriage (more on this later below).

Two reigns of destabilization had gone by prior to Akhenaten (this is during 1500 to 1400 range periods).
It should be noted that the Hittite empire was equally having struggles around the relatively same time period, but on a different front with the Kaskians.

Both Empires, while still skirmishing with each other in the Levant, separately were having issues.

The Hittite empire's solution under stress appears to be to invent, by consequence, what we understand today as global politics - they begin to escalate the method of obtaining treaties to subdue or pacify the amount of attacks against them.

Egypt, however, seems to have gone about solutions differently following this and Akhenaten appears determined to unify the momentum of the land.
It does not appear that his endeavor worked very well, however, as it was not long after his death that the original pantheon paradigm is restored and supplies us with the only instance of a monotheistic styling returning to polytheistic styling following the original attempt or movement to conversion.

Now, this could be because Akhenaten never got as far as the Hebrew political push toward an exclusive monotheistic fashion.
The Hebrew peoples could be said to have had an easier time than Akhenaten in this regard due to a complete loss of their land and cultural control following a division of their peoples and would thereafter follow a revolt to re-unify the people into a sovereign nation again.
These kinds of events which aid to act as a natural erasing were not available to Akhenaten, nor to the rise of the Marduk faction in Babylon.
In both of these cases, the pushed for deity was still in the midst a somewhat still thriving civilization - under stress, yes, but still very much alive and with good memory and record of itself.

In this manner, we can understand Akhenaten's "failure" as no real success was accomplished by the unification he outlined and conducted theocratically so following his reign, everyone returned to the original theocratic paradigm (more or less) and returned to political in-fighting that continued to suffocate the nation's strength - to the point Ankhesenamun, Tutankhamun's widow, requests the marriage to the Hittite for treaty in fear - marked fear is pronounced in the letters over rival political factions. She was so afraid that she claims to the Hittites that she fears trusting marriage to her own political family choices.
The Hittite son, Zannanza, was sent and is in fact murdered along the way by a rival political faction (we can only make vague guesses) not wishing to see success - this is how bad things had become in Egypt.

Ankhesenamun gives into Ay, the adviser who wished to marry her and become Pharaoh, and he is a failure at defeating the Hittites and his reign lasts only 4 years.

So, this is the just before and just after section of Akhenaten to give some context to the seemingly odd act of attempting to funnel everything into one deity and one line of power.
It was, again, a perceived solution to the destabilization that was taking place.
However, it did not pay off and the entire pantheon never was truly wiped out successfully so the system not only returned the political divisions (as usually happens), but also returned the religious diversity (as usually does not happen).

So that is a long way of answering the "when" - we can say somewhere abouts 1400-1300 BCE ranges, with a more narrow range of the latter portion of the 1300's.

Perhaps Akhenaten got his idea from looking at the Marduk party success in Babylon; we don't know for sure, so that is pure speculation, but the information of such events could easily have been available should Akhenaten so desire to examine governing solutions.

Can the monotheistic movements be considered independently of their interaction with the Hellenistic world?
Absolutely; we just did. :)

OK, now; more to the point, can pure monotheism (as the later Judaism would be understood) be considered independent of their interaction with the Hellenistic world?

No, but yes.
"Yes" in that it COULD have been any culture, but "No" because it wasn't any culture - it was the Hellenistic culture.
That said, I would say that you can't actually understand the Judaic monotheism that came about without first understanding the Hittites, Egyptians, Babylonians, Canaanites as well as the Hellenistic culture.

All of these cultures fed into the Hebrew culture, regardless of Orthodox or Conservative traditions today.

Most of Leviticus' laws are found in the Hittite legal documents, for instance.
The Canaanite pantheon's god of god's is El.
Their language is derived from Phoenician.
They had extensive stay and interaction with Babylon (clearly).
And Alexander did a fantastic job of absolutely dominating the Northern Levant region for a bit and endeavored heavily to "Hellenize" the holy texts and culture as much as he could achieve.

These are just glancing mentions of relations, but the trails go rather deep between these cultures.

More specifically, I think the question could be re-framed as "In what way did the Hellenistic culture influence the Monotheistic movement to occur in the Hebrew culture?" Noting that when we say "Hebrew culture" in this, we are at once accounting for Samaria as well as Judah and Israel.

We start with the Kingdoms of Israel, Judah and Samaria following the effective collapse of the Canaanite "empire" (I would almost rather call this a "league", however, than "empire") following the Sea Peoples desolation of the Levant region low lands.

Israel and Judah had differing ideas of religion, as did Samaria.
These groups could have one day evolved into three diverse versions of Judaism had they all survived, but that didn't happen.
Effectively, Samaria was the only one left after a very short time.

Eventually Judah is permitted its identity again thanks to Achaemenid rule being a bit nicer than the Babylonian rule.

So one variation was by default erased right out; the religious variation of the Kingdom of Israel (keeping in mind that this Kingdom had its own temple system separate from Judah, as did Samaria).

Then comes along Alexander and this is where the Hellenistic infusion begins.
Now, as you can see in this image, the results of this endeavor upon the North was rather extreme as Hellenistic temples now dotted the landscape alongside synagogues.
The amount of such infusion is more pronounced North of Samaria (as Samaria divided Judah and what would be Galilee and was the Kingdom of Israel before).

Now, eventually a portion of old-time conservative idealists really longed for the land of 400 years ago and we end up with the Maccabean revolt.

This begins the new era of creating the myth of the great Jewish peoples; from here on there is only Judah and the line between the identity of Israelite and Jew gets more and more blurred until we much later have anthropologists working to sift through the distinction once again that previously existed.

This is where the heaviest push toward monotheism really begins; following the Maccabean revolt; archaeological finds greatly dwindle in artifacts of diversified deities and goddess icons begin their descent (but are not yet entirely absent).

OK, that's the quick once over, but we have to back up because I stated that the 8th c BCE was our earliest point for these Hebrew groups moving toward any form of monotheism and the Maccabees are 700 years following this so clearly there's a gap.

As best as I can tell, from what we have discerned from archaeological and paleographical evidences, it appears that around the 8th c BCE Judah and Israel started feuds of sorts which resulted in textual differences that appeared to result in, at least, some kind of back and forth textual or theocratic contest between Judah and Israel across the 8th and 7th centuries.

Eventually the 6th c BCE happened and both Kingdoms were collapsed.
When recovery from this happened, only Judah was left standing around the middle of the 6th c BCE range - this is also roughly around when suddenly it is quite more pronounced that the Law is now the go-to source of authority and not the ruling Kings (this could be a result of the loss of the original Kingdom of Judah and lack of Kingship being capable of guaranteed retention by their own sovereign peoples).

Either way, this sets off a chain of events which will loop us back to the Maccabean revolt where we really get polarized into a monotheistic fashion (oddly, they result a bit later in the Hasmonean increase of the Hellenistic ingest despite early contest against Hellenist parties) and this movement more or less reaches its highlight with Jonathan gaining leading power and High Priest power at the same time; again an extreme time of civil stress and the move he takes is one of legal survival as in taking the High Priest, the other parties are (technically) no longer permitted to attack him, which had been going on previously according to the writings we have today (we should probably keep in mind that we only have one side of the story).


So, could we understand Judaic Monotheism without the Hellenistic culture?
No; it is intertwined but distinct.
It is not the Hellenistic culture which gave rise to Judaic monotheism, but it is the continued struggle of this group of Hebrew peoples for sovereignty and preserved identity against cultures, which included the Hellenistic culture, which produced their interest in a more unified cultural identity found in monotheistic theocracy.


Oh my, I've ran off at the keyboard again.
Well, I hope I helped in some manner along the winding way.

Cheers,
Jayson
 
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[Excellent stuff snipped for space]

No, but yes.
"Yes" in that it COULD have been any culture, but "No" because it wasn't any culture - it was the Hellenistic culture.
That said, I would say that you can't actually understand the Judaic monotheism that came about without first understanding the Hittites, Egyptians, Babylonians, Canaanites as well as the Hellenistic culture.

All of these cultures fed into the Hebrew culture, regardless of Orthodox or Conservative traditions today.

Most of Leviticus' laws are found in the Hittite legal documents, for instance.
The Canaanite pantheon's god of god's is El.
Their language is derived from Phoenician.
They had extensive stay and interaction with Babylon (clearly).
And Alexander did a fantastic job of absolutely dominating the Northern Levant region for a bit and endeavored heavily to "Hellenize" the holy texts and culture as much as he could achieve.

These are just glancing mentions of relations, but the trails go rather deep between these cultures.

More specifically, I think the question could be re-framed as "In what way did the Hellenistic culture influence the Monotheistic movement to occur in the Hebrew culture?" Noting that when we say "Hebrew culture" in this, we are at once accounting for Samaria as well as Judah and Israel.

We start with the Kingdoms of Israel, Judah and Samaria following the effective collapse of the Canaanite "empire" (I would almost rather call this a "league", however, than "empire") following the Sea Peoples desolation of the Levant region low lands.

Israel and Judah had differing ideas of religion, as did Samaria.
These groups could have one day evolved into three diverse versions of Judaism had they all survived, but that didn't happen.
Effectively, Samaria was the only one left after a very short time.

Eventually Judah is permitted its identity again thanks to Achaemenid rule being a bit nicer than the Babylonian rule.

So one variation was by default erased right out; the religious variation of the Kingdom of Israel (keeping in mind that this Kingdom had its own temple system separate from Judah, as did Samaria).


Israel/Judah/Samaria were sub-groups of the larger overarching Canaanite/Phoenician + Philistine confederation much like the Athens/Macedonia/Sparta were sub-groups of the overarching Greek Confederation.


<here you missed a very crucial influence… The Persian Empire>
Then comes along Alexander and this is where the Hellenistic infusion begins.
Now, as you can see in this image, the results of this endeavor upon the North was rather extreme as Hellenistic temples now dotted the landscape alongside synagogues.
The amount of such infusion is more pronounced North of Samaria (as Samaria divided Judah and what would be Galilee and was the Kingdom of Israel before).


You missed a very important and crucial stage in the evolution of Judaism.

In fact I go as far as calling it THE formative influence. I think that the Zoroastrian Persian Emperors (Cyrus, Darius etc.) created Judaism and their emissary Ezra wrote the initial parts of the Tanakh.

I have always noticed that the history of the region seems to miss out or pay a cursory mention of the 200+ years of Persian control of the region. The Achaemenid empire was the largest one in the history of the region up until Alexander’s time. It controlled Greece and Egypt and the Levant and parts of Arabia and India. So why is it when Judaism is the subject of discussion there is hardly any mention of Zoroastrianism and Cyrus (Koresh the Messiah of YHWH)? Funny that?

Now, eventually a portion of old-time conservative idealists really longed for the land of 400 years ago and we end up with the Maccabean revolt.

This begins the new era of creating the myth of the great Jewish peoples; from here on there is only Judah and the line between the identity of Israelite and Jew gets more and more blurred until we much later have anthropologists working to sift through the distinction once again that previously existed.

This is where the heaviest push toward monotheism really begins; following the Maccabean revolt; archaeological finds greatly dwindle in artifacts of diversified deities and goddess icons begin their descent (but are not yet entirely absent).


Exactly…the Hasmonean Theocrats are those who created the second stage of the evolution of Judaism which is the root for all later flavors of Judaism and finally of Rabbinical Judaism.

As fundamentalist descendents of Persian Zoroastrian Theocrats (Cohenim) the Hasmoneans fought a guerilla war against the Seleucids and the tide of Hellenization of the region much like the Taliban who are fundamentalist descendents of Persian Muslim Theocrats fought a jihad against the “Hellenization” of their region.

Once they won they went around enforcing their theocracy (much like the Taliban) on the people of the region who were mostly either polytheistic (Hellenized) or henotheistic as influenced by a combination of the Greeks and the earlier attempts of Ezra et al.

I also wonder if the Essenes were a remnant of that theocracy??? I think the Hasmoneans are even responsible for some of the books of the Tanakh… definitely Daniel.

In the Catholic Bible the books of Maccabees are about them and I have always wondered why these books are not part of the Tanakh??


[good stuff snipped for space]

So, could we understand Judaic Monotheism without the Hellenistic culture?
No; it is intertwined but distinct.
It is not the Hellenistic culture which gave rise to Judaic monotheism, but it is the continued struggle of this group of Hebrew peoples for sovereignty and preserved identity against cultures, which included the Hellenistic culture, which produced their interest in a more unified cultural identity found in monotheistic theocracy.


Yes… exactly. The coalescing effect that Hellenization had on Judaism is a very similar phenomenon to the effects that Westernization is now having on the Muslim same region. In a way one could say that the Islamism that is going on today is akin to that of the development of the Jewish fundamentalism that kept on fighting from ca 150 BCE up until ca 160 CE and helped give rise to Rabbinic Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
 
Israel/Judah/Samaria were sub-groups of the larger overarching Canaanite/Phoenician + Philistine confederation much like the Athens/Macedonia/Sparta were sub-groups of the overarching Greek Confederation.
Quite.

You missed a very important and crucial stage in the evolution of Judaism.

In fact I go as far as calling it THE formative influence. I think that the Zoroastrian Persian Emperors (Cyrus, Darius etc.) created Judaism and their emissary Ezra wrote the initial parts of the Tanakh.

I have always noticed that the history of the region seems to miss out or pay a cursory mention of the 200+ years of Persian control of the region. The Achaemenid empire was the largest one in the history of the region up until Alexander’s time. It controlled Greece and Egypt and the Levant and parts of Arabia and India. So why is it when Judaism is the subject of discussion there is hardly any mention of Zoroastrianism and Cyrus (Koresh the Messiah of YHWH)? Funny that?
Quite right; I did skip over that rather valued influence.
I hadn't intended to.

I don't know if I can agree or not with the idea that Judaism was created by Zoroastrian ruling powers or not; a lot of factors are streaming in at this point along with the Persian influence.
However, I would not be at all surprised if the Persians helped refine and organize this rag-tag collective of theologically disorganized views into one much more orderly directive to focus the community around.

It was well within the capability of the Persians to act like the global aid community does today in assisting to set up basic infrastructures viewed to revive some level of stability and retention in a region, and the idea of pseudo-rule at a distance with monitored "self rule" was an experiment proving successful around this time quite well.

So at the least, I can sympathize that there was grand influence involved and the capacity to shape or direct the reformation was definitely capable.

The history of the region does tend to skip over that period, but I specifically make it a critical point in my timeline, as without it, we really don't have the subsequent Hebrew culture - it would have just died out like the Kingdom of Israel - a footnote in books and wikipedia, barely with enough information to fill more than a couple paragraphs.

When it comes to Zoroastrianism, I really bring that up when it comes to Matthew, but culturally I think there are quite a few things we could examine in comparison between the Zoroastrian methods of theocratic design and the "Judaic" methods of theocratic design.

In a way, it is somewhat like looking at the United States Constitution and the constitution of the Seven Iroquois Nations.

Exactly…the Hasmonean Theocrats are those who created the second stage of the evolution of Judaism which is the root for all later flavors of Judaism and finally of Rabbinical Judaism.

As fundamentalist descendents of Persian Zoroastrian Theocrats (Cohenim) the Hasmoneans fought a guerilla war against the Seleucids and the tide of Hellenization of the region much like the Taliban who are fundamentalist descendents of Persian Muslim Theocrats fought a jihad against the “Hellenization” of their region.

Once they won they went around enforcing their theocracy (much like the Taliban) on the people of the region who were mostly either polytheistic (Hellenized) or henotheistic as influenced by a combination of the Greeks and the earlier attempts of Ezra et al.

I also wonder if the Essenes were a remnant of that theocracy??? I think the Hasmoneans are even responsible for some of the books of the Tanakh… definitely Daniel.

In the Catholic Bible the books of Maccabees are about them and I have always wondered why these books are not part of the Tanakh??
Dead even there with you.
The Essenes: if by this you mean the DSS grouping, then my current view is that it all started with the ousting of Onias IV who ran off to Egypt eventually and claimed his taller Temple was the true temple so everyone should move to Egypt (didn't work of course) and that allied priests of his took off after Onias fled and started their community awaiting his military campaign return....until he up and created a Temple in Egypt and suddenly really flattened the steam in that ambition, but maybe another would come along of the Zadok and restore everything...a few generations later you have younger people still of this group but the direct link of value to Onias IV or the actual Zadok was pretty weak at this point and perhaps revamped or just naturally slid into the Messianic movement which has striking similarities to the rightful Zadok restoration movement.

OK, that's a tangent and probably one we don't really need, but anywho.

Yes… exactly. The coalescing effect that Hellenization had on Judaism is a very similar phenomenon to the effects that Westernization is now having on the Muslim same region. In a way one could say that the Islamism that is going on today is akin to that of the development of the Jewish fundamentalism that kept on fighting from ca 150 BCE up until ca 160 CE and helped give rise to Rabbinic Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Oh Persia...why did you have to help? ;)
 
I'm curious, would you be up for colaborating on a graphical timeline of the Hebrew peoples which also includes cultural ingestions?
 
Quite.


Quite right; I did skip over that rather valued influence.
I hadn't intended to.

I don't know if I can agree or not with the idea that Judaism was created by Zoroastrian ruling powers or not; a lot of factors are streaming in at this point along with the Persian influence.
However, I would not be at all surprised if the Persians helped refine and organize this rag-tag collective of theologically disorganized views into one much more orderly directive to focus the community around.

It was well within the capability of the Persians to act like the global aid community does today in assisting to set up basic infrastructures viewed to revive some level of stability and retention in a region, and the idea of pseudo-rule at a distance with monitored "self rule" was an experiment proving successful around this time quite well.

So at the least, I can sympathize that there was grand influence involved and the capacity to shape or direct the reformation was definitely capable.

The history of the region does tend to skip over that period, but I specifically make it a critical point in my timeline, as without it, we really don't have the subsequent Hebrew culture - it would have just died out like the Kingdom of Israel - a footnote in books and wikipedia, barely with enough information to fill more than a couple paragraphs.

When it comes to Zoroastrianism, I really bring that up when it comes to Matthew, but culturally I think there are quite a few things we could examine in comparison between the Zoroastrian methods of theocratic design and the "Judaic" methods of theocratic design.

In a way, it is somewhat like looking at the United States Constitution and the constitution of the Seven Iroquois Nations.


Dead even there with you.
The Essenes: if by this you mean the DSS grouping, then my current view is that it all started with the ousting of Onias IV who ran off to Egypt eventually and claimed his taller Temple was the true temple so everyone should move to Egypt (didn't work of course) and that allied priests of his took off after Onias fled and started their community awaiting his military campaign return....until he up and created a Temple in Egypt and suddenly really flattened the steam in that ambition, but maybe another would come along of the Zadok and restore everything...a few generations later you have younger people still of this group but the direct link of value to Onias IV or the actual Zadok was pretty weak at this point and perhaps revamped or just naturally slid into the Messianic movement which has striking similarities to the rightful Zadok restoration movement.

OK, that's a tangent and probably one we don't really need, but anywho.


Oh Persia...why did you have to help? ;)



Yes I agree with you too…. Great stuff..... I am currently writing a few posts that relate to this subject in another thread... please feel free to comment there too.

I have so far already posted the introductory two of the planned 7 posts. I am working as fast as I can with the limitations of life's obligations in the balance. But I am almost finished with the third and fourth so only three more yet to be done and of course final touches on the almost finished two....should be a good series of posts ....even if I say so myself :o
 
I'm curious, would you be up for colaborating on a graphical timeline of the Hebrew peoples which also includes cultural ingestions?


Private message me with your email (not here) and let's talk. Press on my name on the left above my picture and should come up with options for private messages. Send me one with your email address and I will reply to you on that email and we can go from there....sounds interesting... but I am an old guy who forgot almost all but how to open a bottle.
 
When it comes to Zoroastrianism, I really bring that up when it comes to Matthew, but culturally I think there are quite a few things we could examine in comparison between the Zoroastrian methods of theocratic design and the "Judaic" methods of theocratic design.


Have a look at this post and this post.


Oh Persia...why did you have to help? ;)


I call all this squalid debacle of the Abrahamic religions, Darius’ Revenge and last laugh over Alexander’s revenge. :D

OK, that's a tangent and probably one we don't really need, but anywho.

But an INTRIGUING one that should have a bearing on this thread.
 
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...

But an INTRIGUING one that should have a bearing on this thread.

Yes, Jayson did mention that in the thread. It seems quite likely to me as well. The DSS "Sons of Zadok" as they call their Priestly class are obsessed with following the letter of "The Law" to prepare a straight way for the Lord in the wilderness. Those guys were rabidly Monotheistic by the time the scrolls were left in those caves.
 
[lots of good stuff snipped]The coalescing effect that Hellenization had on Judaism is a very similar phenomenon to the effects that Westernization is now having on the Muslim same region. In a way one could say that the Islamism that is going on today is akin to that of the development of the Jewish fundamentalism that kept on fighting from ca 150 BCE up until ca 160 CE and helped give rise to Rabbinic Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

If one's feeling particularly uncharitable one could even compare it to the Raj's influence on the caste system of India, if wiki is to be believed on the subject
Caste is commonly thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but various contemporary scholars have argued that the caste system was constructed by the British colonial regime.[8] Between 1860 and 1920, the British segregated Indians by caste, granting administrative jobs and senior appointments only to the upper castes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

Obviously the subject of another thread merely yet another observation of how foreign subjugation may coalesce religious jive.



[ . . . ]the evident "first" goes to Egypt around the 1400-1300 BCE range with Amenhotep IV Akhenaten.[Lots of good stuff snipped]

Thanks for your brilliant outline!
I myself see the Akhenaten reign (with all due respect to our fellow forumite, may he post forever) as a unique blip in Egypt's history, one with nil impact- neither social nor political nor religious.
It's as though it'd never happened other than random scraps of writings which escaped the conscientious destruction of all traces of the Armarna period. We have a few, very few examples of the jeweller's art as witness to the extraordinary change in esthetic values during Akhenaten's reign and virtually nothing more.
Even the workshop where Nefertiti's bust was found gives us little to think Akhenaten's monotheism was other than an extravagant fad.

I see nothing to make me think Akhenaten's venture into monotheism had any impact on anything but 20th century imagination, especially subsequent to Carter's discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb and the probable correspondence of Ankhesenamun to the Hittite ruler to negociate a marriage/alliance.

Almost literally nil impact at all except that starting with Akhenaten pharaohs began to pierce their ears.

My opinion may be based on incomplete or outdated infors of course!
Learning is on-going, especially in dealing with the past where new information is always just a spadeful away. Or these days just a fresh analysis of existing artefacts away.
If I'm missing evidence about the impact of Akhenaten's beliefs please let me know.

Marduk. Supremacy of a given deity or monotheism?
I have to learn more about it. I find the esthetics of Babylon unappealing but I'll dedicate time to learning why Marduk's worship may be considered a form of monotheism.

Off to read!

ETA
Ha.
I left out the most important thing of all.
A collaboration of two such well-informed posters as Leumas and JaysonR would be a delight!
 
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Leumas,

Real quick note: I don't know all of your details yet, but the Persian solution is extremely thrilling. It solves a puzzle I have been looking for the right piece for a while now; how is it that a group of divisive Hebrew groups ended up producing what we see in Judea in a time frame remarkably faster than any civilization has ever accomplished, and yet at the same time accomplished retaining their self-destructive and divisive social structure with little vested value in the ideals of aesthetic civil works.

The culture's social maturity doesn't match the infrastructural maturity; a strange quandary.
Any nation of peoples capable of leaping from highland surviver tribes through only around 500 total years or so of sovereign self government, and through multiple destructions, straight into ordered society with well developed culture and self history in a mere ~800 years should be the golden rival of the great Arabian States, or even the great Hattusa.

Yet we look at their civil works and there's just nothing at all.
It's like looking at a skyscraper just dumped in the middle of Togo, Africa.

The understanding of function through historical familial context is simply absent in appearance.
It is, indeed, as you discuss in many forms, as though America just tossed a fully loaded aircraft carrier at Tibet.
If we looked at that archeologically, we would be about as puzzled if we stopped to consider what we were actually looking at in juxtaposition between the carrier and the surrounding conditions.

Persia getting directly involved quite easily solves the puzzle as in such we can much more understand the rapid inflation burst we observe in their growth within a specifically narrow margin (quite a bit like the Big Bang theory’s own inflation observation).

I'll touch base with you tomorrow. :)

Cheers,
Jayson
 
Err... what?

With all due respect, please look at what actually is known about the area, don't just make up stuff. At least not if we're discussing history, as opposed to theology.

The area had had some pretty advanced civilization all along. It wasn't some hunter gatherer tribes from the Amazon. They had cities since circa 9000 BCE (see, Jericho for example, which is one of the first walled cities ever), putting it on the same time frame as the Sumerians and actually ahead of the Egyptians.

They had writing all along. One of the biggest libraries of cuneiform tablets EVER was at Ebla, in Syria, just a short walk from the later Judaea.

Plus, look on a map at where they are. They're smack dab in the middle of a major trade route between two advanced civilizations. Do you really think they'd just remain illiterate survivor tribes with no civilization or culture?

And even if you wish to believe that that would be the case, the fact is, Egypt conquers the area right after they expel the Hyksos. About half a millenium before there would be a Judaism or anything. Jerusalem and the other cities (because again, they had cities and stuff) would then be ruled by puppet kings appointed by the Egpytian pharaoh. And who were at least literate enough to write the letters we find in the Amarna letters.

Even that alone should dispel any wonders about how afterwards they get to have a civilization and history and so on. It's akin to wondering how come the eastern coast of the USA starts developing so fast after the English got there :p
 
It is very poignant indeed, and when I hear a Gospel Choir singing words inspired by Ps 137, I idly wonder, How the hell are they going to handle the poignancy of vv 8,9? The new "universal deity" here looks pretty much like the old particular deity of a few bands of desert-dwelling goatherds.

"Hey, we have a theodicy problem!"
"You mean, a universal divinity is permitting evil things to happen?"
"I mean, he's telling us to smash children's heads against rocks."
"Yes, you have a theodicy problem."

On the other hand, consider the Book of Jonah, in which God says of the sinners of Nineveh (Jonah 4:11):

And should I not spare Nineveh, the great city, wherein there are more than six score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Remember that Jews hated the Ninevites about as much as they hated the Babylonians.
 
This video outlines how it happened:



Sorry that it's a video, rather than a page of text, but it is fairly concise and runs only 15 minutes.

For those who would question the source of information in the video, it's gleaned from the book A History Of God by Karen Armstrong. Armstrong is a former nun (so is certainly not biased against the idea of God as a real entity, even though I'd find that difficult to square with this narrative) and a religious historian. There's a lot of talk on the internet about this particular book, if you choose to look for it, and one thing that it all has in common is in praising how well-researched the book is.

It is, I believe, the most highly-regarded academic work on the origins of the Abrahamic religions.

Very interesting. Thank you for that.
 
Hans,

I'm not intending to make anything up.
I think there is a bit of misunderstanding; we don't have a distinct and strong Hebrew culture until around just after the 1000 BCE range and it's not very glamorous. The distinct Hebrew culture is very short in timeline and very rapid. I was not intending to convey that we absent the recognition of all other influences, quite to the opposite is my proposed collaboration with Leumas.
Instead, my comments are in regards to the shear expansion that occurs post-Persia compared to pre-Babylonian exile.

I'm not referring to the region, as yes, many things are going on in the region, but instead this specific people and their own "Kingdoms".

The rate of development pre-Babylonian exile by comparison to the rate of development post-Persia is worth note, just as much as it is worth noting the impact of the Hasmonean era upon the production of their advancement.

Keep in mind I am not talking about the region here, but firstly the Hebrew culture, and within that smaller group, even more specifically the second Judah.

Cheers,
Jayson
 
There isn't a Hebrew culture in the area before the 1st millennium CE, in the same way as there's no Italian culture in Italy before the middle ages.

But nevertheless, that Hebrew culture evolved out of a group in the region which was anything but a bunch of tribesmen in need of discovering history. And yes, the area WAS a cultural backwater and had low literacy and all, but it was FAR from being the kind of state-less tribes that needed to discover even structured society. They had a structured society to start with.

And even if you want to explore a hypothetical world in which that didn't exist by 1500 BCE, then the Egyptian conquest would have rammed structured society down their throats anyway when they conquered the area. As I was saying, the Egyptians were appointing kings there. That's society structure.

Plus, from what we can tell, it was more stratified than just you're subordinate to the king, and the king is subordinate to the Pharaoh. Because studying graves and such in the area, the GINI factor so to speak gets out whack fast under the Egyptians. A few get much richer, most people get much poorer.

ETA: THAT said, yes, especially the religion does seem to start evolving much faster after the scribes come back from Babylon, with a bunch of new ideas. Some inspired from Persian Zoroastrianism, some ripped off from Babylonian polytheism. Not only that, but the whole pharisee caste and interpretation appears practically from nothing at that point. That's quite mainstream scholarship, so, yeah, I'm not challenging that. But that's something different than wondering how they discovered structured society, innit?
 
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Hans,

When I mentioned the tribal level, that was only a passing mention of their starting point as this specific result back at the 1000 BCE range, but was not intended to assert that we must force some odd manner of backwood tribesman in isolation forced to create what became Judea in less than a thousand years.

What I was more focusing on was exactly that last part which you hit at the bottom of your post, because we cannot let up on the fact that this is a theocratic society so the amplified production of their structural order in regards to that theological paradigm is at once the same infrastructure supporting the governing philosophies for civil construction projects.

The rapid rate of these factors is at odds with their social maturity in that typically by the point we see around their 1st c BCE range progress, typically most civilizations which had advanced to such pedantic theocratic markup and structural accomplishments in support of that markup had some level of impressive or worthy of remark civil construction project.

In their case, the consideration for civil work projects is almost entirely absent a consideration.
That's what I meant by the juxtaposition.

There is by far more incredible outlines of classes and legalities of the ruling orders designed, and infrastructure to support those ends, than there are outlines for social welfare - which was a rather common project of most advancing civilizations alongside of their theocratic infrastructure's growth.

We can find civil accomplishments and furnishings in almost all thriving societies that reach levels of governing theocratic organization and logistical accomplishment for its institutions akin to what we observe in level in the second Judah group.
That is the norm; waste, arts, provisions - civil works.
These are at extreme odds in their case when contrasted against the Second Temple and the over all detail of their theocratic legal design.

If they were aided by Persia in getting their ducks in order, then this would explain the off-balance relation between their executive and legislative growths and their social growths.

Edit: Actually, your note about America highlights the issue, for in their case by the second Judah it is as if we are looking at a government like America had in the 1950's with all of its provisions and facilities sitting side-by-side civil conditions of America in the 1920's.
That is not a normal ratio of growth between governing and civil growth for the Bronze and Iron ages; typically there is far more civil growth for the level of governing growth that is observed in the second Judah.

Cheers,
Jayson
 
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... But nevertheless, that Hebrew culture evolved out of a group in the region which was anything but a bunch of tribesmen in need of discovering history. And yes, the area WAS a cultural backwater and had low literacy and all, but it was FAR from being the kind of state-less tribes that needed to discover even structured society. They had a structured society to start with.
Yes, even if the Hebrew group originated in remote mountain villages, or were nomad bands entering from outside, the area they entered was not entirely barbarous, and had close contacts with other civilised areas--was even sometimes a colony of these areas. And this too ... The alphabet was perfected there. That, it seems to me, is what made possible scriptural based religions.
 

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