Michael Brown Shooting

[Bikewer]

Morning all. Not much to report on my part. Instead of being assigned to the "instant reaction" detail, I was assigned to our "off-campus patrol" unit as there were fears that Ferguson-related protests might pop up either in nearby Clayton (Where the country courthouse resides) or in the "loop"... the big entertainment/dining area just north of the university.
Nothing of the sort went down.... It rained all night.

Up in Ferguson, we are told there was a brief attempt to violate the curfew which resulted in the deployment of smoke bombs and perhaps a bit of gas, and that there were a few arrests.
No "code 1000" (riot) was called and no looting reported. There was a shooting.... Evidently a Saturday-night-disturbance sort of thing, not protest related.

I expect things will remain fractious for a while, and when whatever result is handed down by prosecutor/grand jury.... Not likely to be good.

 

[William Parcher]

St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Missouri Highway Patrol Capt. Ronald S. Johnson said in a briefing just before 3 a.m. that police began using smoke bombs early this morning after learning that men were on the roof of Red's BBQ. Police were going to walk West Florissant Avenue in teams, but that plan changed with the report of men on the roof.

Authorities then heard that there was a shooting victim near Red's, a police car was shot at, and a man stood in the street with a handgun.

Tear gas and smoke bombs were used to disperse a group of defiant protesters. By the time officers moved protesters from the scene, the shooting victim had been taken by private vehicle to a hospital, Johnson said. He did not know whether the victim was a protester.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Glad you're safe and there was comparatively little trouble.
Whatever the autopsy reveals, they'd better be ready for a storm.

 

[Mike!]

Thanks for checking in!

 

[dudalb]

Let's try to be fair.

These are folks who feel, rightly or wrongly, downtrodden by police.
Those demanding "justice" have undoubtedly felt like they backed the wrong horse to some extent, given the revelations about the deceased. But there's an obvious gang problem in the area based on the photos I've seen, and bad relations with those tasked with arresting problem citizens.

We need someone who can bring peace to the area and unify everyone behind peaceful social protest. I'm certain almost everyone in that town is appalled by the looting.

Something is rotten in Ferguson where you have a community that Is over 60% Black, but there is, according to what I have read on several different sources, almost no Black representation in government.
I smeall a good ole boy system at work.

 

[Wolrab]

You'll are missing the nuance. Brown is being characterized as a violent felon (because he is videotaped robbing and grabbing his victim by the throat), not because of any legal nuance (except by the very definition of the crime he committed), but because it's thought to directly expose some character trait (such as being a violent criminal, as his actions demonstrate when he robs and assaults his victim). Once we put the label on (quite correctly, as he is obviously a violent criminal)), anything that happens afterward can fall into some recipe about getting what you deserve (or what your actions cause). It's an easy way to construct some narrative and fit subsequent events into our heads.

But the guy in the store is reacting to the situation he finds himself in (being robbed). No aggression from the storekeeper (attempt to recover stolen merchandise), no "violent felon."

He pushes the guy away (using his throat). Doesn't hit him, or attack him(except when he attacked him), pushes him away (by the throat) so he can get out of the door (to flee the scene of a violent crime).

I've seen much, much worse in an average game of professional football. Might get someone a penalty, might not. If you are going to confront a shoplifter, I wouldn't say a push was entirely unexpected.

Bully, I would accept. "Violent felon" is recasting to an agenda.

My hilites and B/I/U FTFY

 

[Travis]

Wow, a disturbingly large portion of posters here think cigar theft deserves summary execution.

Yes, I've lumped everyone that made any attempt to validate the cigar theft aspect of this as being in that group. Don't argue with me about it. You are now in it in my mind and will never escape it.

Good day to you.

 

[Giz]

What I like is how some of the posters seem absolutely floored by even the possibility this could've been -- based on eyewitness accounts -- an unjustified killing. As though this has never happened before. As though there aren't former police officers sitting in prison right now serving sentences for murders they committed on duty. As though blacks don't have a history of being targeted for police violence. As though the Ferguson Police Department's bad reputation is irrelevant

It absolutely could be an unjustified killing. There are, as you say, examples of cops who have done just that. However, there are also examples of young criminals who will use force to try and escape going to jail. At the moment we don't know which (or both) occurred in this case.

We can try and play the numbers, or we can wait for the autopsy and information that will go to the grand jury.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Wow, a disturbingly large portion of posters here think cigar theft deserves summary execution.

Yes, I've lumped everyone that made any attempt to validate the cigar theft aspect of this as being in that group. Don't argue with me about it. You are now in it in my mind and will never escape it.

Good day to you.

Please cite the post that says what you say in the first sentence of this one.

 

[William Parcher]

We can try and play the numbers, or we can wait for the autopsy and information that will go to the grand jury.

Or we can do both. There is no global harm when this forum has speculation posts or whatever. JREF members are not a jury or judge and I seriously doubt that this forum is a catalyst for anything going on in Ferguson.

 

[Ziggurat]

Wow, a disturbingly large portion of posters here think cigar theft deserves summary execution.

0% is disturbing?

Yes, I've lumped everyone that made any attempt to validate the cigar theft aspect of this as being in that group.

Well, that's illogical.

Don't argue with me about it. You are now in it in my mind and will never escape it.

I guess I can't really contradict you: if you think this way, that's the way you think, and the absurdity of it clearly won't stop you. But it's strange that you seem to be almost bragging about your close-mindedness.

Good day to you.

Good day.

 

[casebro]

If you label anyone who is skeptical as to whether this shooting is justifiable or not as "anti-cop" you make any kind of rational or objective discussion pretty much impossible. In reality I think most intelligent people are waiting for the facts to come out while recognizing it is conceivable the eyewitness accounts are plausible. It is possible to hold those two viewpoints.

1. Wait for all the facts to come out.
2. Eyewitness accounts may be accurate.

So I am no longer considered a skeptic if I am skeptical of the Eye Witless News reports.

Lynch me too.

Keep in mind that the cop's statement IS evidence. Eye Witless News reports are NOT.

Sworn statement, under penalty of perjury, vs "Oh BOY! MY face will be on TV!!!"

Hmmm, TV interviews get edited. They WANT controversy. I wonder if the TV stations have taped interviews of people who back Wilson's view?

And I'm thinking there were about three pivotal interviews, Johnson, some gal, and a guy? What was the time line? Could they have influenced each other? If lots of people heard Johnson's side first, him having good reason to stretch the truth, did the subsequent interviewees carry on from there?

Or maybe Johnson went home to hide, and saw the interviews on TV, and embellished his story then. How did he GET interviewed?

Grand juries are secret, but does the evidence presented become public knowledge aftewwards? Or will it be up to the defense team to leak it?

 

[William Parcher]

Please cite the post that says what you say in the first sentence of this one.

I think it was a comedy post.

The tip-off is...

Don't argue with me about it. You are now in it in my mind and will never escape it.

LOL.

 

[Giz]

Or we can do both. There is no global harm when this forum has speculation posts or whatever. JREF members are not a jury or judge and I seriously doubt that this forum is a catalyst for anything going on in Ferguson.

Oh, absolutely. But I've seen a lot of "some cops have murdered people, therefore this must be another unjustified shooting" speculation (but put forward as fact). Just wanted to point out that playing the speculative card properly means looking in both directions... like the bad decisions that large 18 year old criminals who believe they are about to get picked up for a felony might make.

How do the relative probabilities stack up?

 

[Cylinder]

Please cite the post that says what you say in the first sentence of this one.

I'd be curious to see that too. If Wilson shot Brown as punishment for theft or even assaulting the shopkeeper, he should be convicted of murder and sentenced to death - the aggravating factor being subversion of Brown's due process rights under color of law.

 

[casebro]

mmm, TV interviews get edited. They WANT controversy. I wonder if the TV stations have taped interviews of people who back Wilson's view?

Now I wonder if the TV stations might show those, (if they exist) just to feed the controversy?

 

[Caper]

Wow, a disturbingly large portion of posters here think cigar theft deserves summary execution.

Yeah... except nobody argued that. But then again this is Travis.

 

[Unabogie]

You'll are missing the nuance. Brown is being characterized as a violent felon, not because of any legal nuance, but because it's thought to directly expose some character trait. Once we put the label on, anything that happens afterward can fall into some recipe about getting what you deserve. It's an easy way to construct some narrative and fit subsequent events into our heads.

But the guy in the store is reacting to the situation he finds himself in. No aggression from the storekeeper, no "violent felon."

He pushes the guy away. Doesn't hit him, or attack him, pushes him away so he can get out of the door.

I've seen much, much worse in an average game of professional football. Might get someone a penalty, might not. If you are going to confront a shoplifter, I wouldn't say a push was entirely unexpected.

Bully, I would accept. "Violent felon" is recasting to an agenda.

Agreed.

 

[marplots]

My hilites and B/I/U FTFY

Thank you. That is a good illustration for how the method works to ease cognitive discomfort.

Here's the flaw. The one incident you have in your analysis is being pushed past the limits of its probative value. This happened for two reasons.

1) We would hardly take a week's worth of humdrum from this same actor (or the statement from his mother (?) about him being a "gentle giant") as having the same level of meaning or insight into his character. That's a kind of omission which shows the asymetry in play. This is then coupled with #2.

2) What we see is all there is. We don't hear what was said or know much about the interaction at the counter. The video becomes the reality, gaining enough importance to make a judgement presented as strong evidence to further establish something else. In fact, it is just a snapshot and very weak.

Would the narrative change if we found out the storekeeper had used a racial epithet? Would it change if guy wanted to pay but didn't have proof of age? So long as there are hypothetical additons which would alter the conclusions we extract from the same snip of video, we must accept the footage may not be as informative as it is being presented as being.

I've been in that situation many times, working in a party store in Detroit. The standards of behavior are not quite what one would derive from reading the criminal code. I suggest that someone labeling the guy something like "nefarious thug," based on that video alone is someone who isn't familiar with nefarious thugs.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Wow, a disturbingly large portion of posters here think cigar theft deserves summary execution.

Yes, I've lumped everyone that made any attempt to validate the cigar theft aspect of this as being in that group. Don't argue with me about it. You are now in it in my mind and will never escape it.

Good day to you.

Whaaat?? Even for you this is a ridiculous strawman. Are you feeling okay?