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Michael Brown Shooting

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The police say the officer shot Brown after the teen shoved the officer and tried to wrestle the officer’s gun from him. But a number of witnesses, including Johnson, refute those claims. And in the wake of the shooting, the Ferguson Police Department has asked the St. Louis County police to step in and take over the investigation.
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I thought only Johnson "refutes" those claims. Aren't the other witnesses all speaking only about the later portions of the event?
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Are you saying that you don't believe there are any particularly bad areas of this country where the average teenage male is some level of thug? That's what I'm saying. They may not all be to the level of strong-arm robbery, but posing with guns, doing/dealing drugs, obtaining illegal guns... shoplifting, getting into fights, etc.

I believe there are absolutely areas in this country where some number of those behaviors is standard issue for the average teenage male. Areas of Camden, NJ - Detroit - Chicago - Atlanta - Baltimore - Oakland - L.A. - St. Louis, etc. etc. etc.

Do you disagree that there are pockets like that, where the "average kid" is a thug? Or do you just disagree that Ferguson appears to be such a pocket?
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Racist garbage with - shockingly enough - not a single cite or shred of evidence presented to support it.

But don't worry, I did your homework for you:

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ferguson-Missouri.html

http://www.ibtimes.com/ferguson-mis...4-blacks-arrested-4-times-much-whites-1658846

If you'll click on the first link, you'll note that as of 2012, Ferguson, MO has a violent crime rate on par with the national average. Gosh, what a hell hole.

The second link will inform you that 14,000 blacks live in Ferguson (a majority by a 2-1 ratio), and from January through February of this year, a total of 217 black people have been arrested for various crimes. That represents about 1.5% of the black population, assuming each arrest was of a unique individual. Ferguson is clearly overrun with "thugs".

So please, tell us all about "average kids" in "areas like this", because you're so smart and informed.
 
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LTC8K6 said:
Evidence in shooting to go before grand jury in days, McCulloch says

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...)le_696223f4-08b9-52f7-b46f-e3b0edc6b993.html
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Sounds like Officer Wilson has been transformed by the County Attorney into a ham sandwich. I wonder if a plea of self-defense in Missouri requires an affirmative defense in the preliminary hearing like it does in Florida. If I recall correctly, that is probably why Mark O'Mara waived the preliminary hearing in the Zimmerman case, although I don't think he ever admitted it.

Try this link:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_696223f4-08b9-52f7-b46f-e3b0edc6b993.html
 
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johnny karate said:
So please, tell us all about "average kids" in "areas like this", because you're so smart and informed.
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As I already conceded, I probably did over-generalize on this.

From my perspective, though, if you look at a neighborhood and there are a large number of pants-sagging miscreants walking around in the middle of the day, and you've got a store owner who is afraid to even report a brazen strong-arm robbery of $50 in merchandise in the middle of the day, and this neighborhood automatically takes a side against the police, and this neighborhood is able to sustain several nights of looting and rioting based on something they're incorrect about... drug use abounds, drug dealing abounds, drive-by shootings abound, etc... well, in my book that's a bad neighborhood afflicted with a serious case of thug-itis.

You're welcome to disagree, and you're welcome to feel that I am being intellectually lazy, racist, too willing to stereotype and generalize... and whatever else you care to think about my perspective on this, knock yourself out.

But I believe this extraordinary effort to excuse and "understand" pathology like this is the number one reason it has gotten as bad as it has.

And regarding crime statistics, please consider the impact a "don't snitch" ethos and a hatred of police has on that, when it pervades a neighborhood.

ETA - Here's a black man who agrees wholeheartedly with me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l4a0IbK_F4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naGYqunWRKU
 
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GWCarver said:
Sounds like Officer Wilson has been transformed by the County Attorney into a ham sandwich. I wonder if a plea of self-defense in Missouri requires an affirmative defense in the preliminary hearing like it does in Florida. If I recall correctly, that is probably why Mark O'Mara waived the preliminary hearing in the Zimmerman case, although I don't think he ever admitted it.

Try this link:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_696223f4-08b9-52f7-b46f-e3b0edc6b993.html
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From your link:

St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch said today that a grand jury will begin hearing evidence in the Michael Brown shooting case next week.

"We are doing it as we go along" rather than wait to present entire body of evidence to grand jury, McCulloch said in a brief phone interview.
​

I wonder if this is a good idea and related to the protest presence and rioting?
 
Kaosium said:
I wonder if this is a good idea and related to the protest presence and rioting?
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Considerations of what their reaction will be have absolutely no place in determining either whether a grand jury (or other process) will even be used, OR the pace and manner in which it is used.

Rioters and rioter-sympathizers SHOULD be upset and disappointed by how this process goes. That's a sign it's going correctly.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
As I already conceded, I probably did over-generalize on this.

From my perspective, though, if you look at a neighborhood and there are a large number of pants-sagging miscreants walking around in the middle of the day, and you've got a store owner who is afraid to even report a brazen strong-arm robbery of $50 in merchandise in the middle of the day, and this neighborhood automatically takes a side against the police, and this neighborhood is able to sustain several nights of looting and rioting based on something they're incorrect about... drug use abounds, drug dealing abounds, drive-by shootings abound, etc... well, in my book that's a bad neighborhood afflicted with a serious case of thug-itis.

You're welcome to disagree, and you're welcome to feel that I am being intellectually lazy, racist, too willing to stereotype and generalize... and whatever else you care to think about my perspective on this, knock yourself out.

But I believe this extraordinary effort to excuse and "understand" pathology like this is the number one reason it has gotten as bad as it has.

And regarding crime statistics, please consider the impact a "don't snitch" ethos and a hatred of police has on that, when it pervades a neighborhood.
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You're talking nonsense. I've already demonstrated - with these things called "facts" - that Ferguson does not have an unusually high violent crime rate, and that the overwhelming majority of its mostly black population are not criminals.

You've concocted some racist fantasy of what you imagine Ferguson to be like that is not remotely connected to reality.

Do yourself a favor, and just drop it, because you're embarrassing yourself.
 
johnny karate said:
I just went back and checked that data I posted earlier. It didn't magically change because you found a black man who agrees with you.
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Point is, you like to post a lot of comments which imply anyone who posts anything remotely similar to what I have posted in this regard, could only be doing so out of some irrational hatred for black people.

I'm far from the only person who's been called "racist" (though it's sometimes done in a less direct way than it has been with me, like calling what they've said racist rather than the person themselves) and I think an example of someone within the black population who sees this stuff in exactly the same way (zero tolerance for thuggery, in other words) and he is FAR from the only example I could've given, is relevant in refuting that central premise. Again, that premise being that only blind hatred of blacks could explain this dim view of certain areas and cultures.
 
Caper said:
He made some good points. But I think that was a white guy.
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Not at all. Why would you think that? He's posted for years now, and used to show his face (he's very much a black man) but he deleted his videos multiple times and issued a fake apology at one point, which he later acknowledged as fake, and now films with his camera pointed at his neck so his face can't be seen...

care to guess why?

black people calling him an uncle tom, trying to get him fired, threatening his family, doxing him, etc.
 
I'm...did someone just complain about the fact that a person of eighteen years of age is being described as a teen-ager?

Really?
 
Mumbles said:
I'm...did someone just complain about the fact that a person of eighteen years of age is being described as a teen-ager?

Really?
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I think that someone was complaining about using the term "teen-ager" to connote qualities like innocence, weakness, etc., that while applicable to most thirteen year-olds, don't appear to apply to Brown.

Really.
 
GWCarver said:
Sounds like Officer Wilson has been transformed by the County Attorney into a ham sandwich. I wonder if a plea of self-defense in Missouri requires an affirmative defense in the preliminary hearing like it does in Florida. If I recall correctly, that is probably why Mark O'Mara waived the preliminary hearing in the Zimmerman case, although I don't think he ever admitted it.

Try this link:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_696223f4-08b9-52f7-b46f-e3b0edc6b993.html
Click to expand...

Zimmerman was charged by information, so there was no grand jury -- just an affidavit from the special prosecutor.

There is no defense - affirmative or otherwise - in grand jury proceedings. The state's attorney presents evidence to establish whether or not probable cause exists to charge a person with a crime. It's not uncommon for a defense attorney to present evidence to a state's attorney to submit to the grand jury but generally only the state's version of events is heard. Of course, returning indictments is not the only function of a grand jury.

Duties of grand jury.

540.031. A grand jury may make inquiry into and return indictments for all grades of crimes and shall make inquiry into all possible violations of the criminal laws as the court may direct. The grand jury may examine public buildings and report on their conditions.​
​

In this instance, the DA's comments seem to indicate this is an " inquiry into all possible violations of the criminal laws," as the evidence is being presented as the investigation unfolds.

A grand jury's power is fairly broad:

540.240. All grand juries are hereby authorized to find and present bills of indictment for either felonies or misdemeanors committed against the laws of the state.​

A grand jury is made of of 12 voting members and alternates which can serve for 6 months + 60 days. The convening judge has the power to dismiss the jury.

Selection of grand jurors, summons and jury qualification form--notification of persons not qualified to serve--alternate grand jurors--length of service--compensation

4. Those persons summoned for grand jury service shall be placed under the control and supervision of the presiding judge of the circuit court, or a judge designated by the presiding judge, who shall select twelve persons to serve as grand jurors. Alternate grand jurors as determined by the judge shall also be selected, to serve as a grand juror upon the death, disqualification, or inability of one of the persons selected as a regular grand juror. The names of those persons selected as grand jurors and alternate grand jurors shall be deleted from the grand jury list.

5. The presiding judge of the circuit court, or a judge designated by the presiding judge, shall have the authority to convene, recess, and adjourn a grand jury as, in his discretion, he deems necessary, and at times and places as he specifies. No grand jury shall be required to serve for longer than a six-month period, except such term may be extended for a period not to exceed sixty days, solely for the purpose of considering and completing matters already before the grand jury. No new matters shall be presented to the grand jury during its extended service. Nothing contained in this section prevents the convening of another grand jury during such extended service.​

An indictment requires a supermajority vote.

True bill--concurrence by nine grand jurors.

540.250. No indictment can be found without the concurrence of at least nine grand jurors. When so found, and not otherwise, the foreperson of the grand jury shall certify under his hand that such indictment is a true bill, by the following endorsement thereon, thus: "A true bill. A B, foreperson".​


Grand jury proceedings are secret.

Grand juror not to disclose evidence--penalty.

540.320. No grand juror shall disclose any evidence given before the grand jury, nor the name of any witness who appeared before them, except when lawfully required to testify as a witness in relation thereto; nor shall he disclose the fact of any indictment having been found against any person for a felony, not in actual confinement, until the defendant shall have been arrested thereon. Any juror violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a class A misdemeanor.​
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Considerations of what their reaction will be have absolutely no place in determining either whether a grand jury (or other process) will even be used, OR the pace and manner in which it is used.

Rioters and rioter-sympathizers SHOULD be upset and disappointed by how this process goes. That's a sign it's going correctly.
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You sound awfully sure of that, what makes you so confident?

Although I came across this story which suggests McCulloch isn't the sort to get mau-maued which includes this:

"In 2001, two undercover drug officers from Dellwood shot and killed two men on the parking lot of a Jack in the Box in north St. Louis County. The officers said the suspects, who had prior felony convictions for drug and assault offenses, tried to escape arrest and then drove toward the officers.

A subsequent federal investigation showed that the men were unarmed and that their car had not moved forward when the officers fired 21 shots and killed the suspects, Earl Murray and Ronald Beasley. The probe, however, also concluded that because the officers feared for their safety, the shootings were justified.

McCulloch didn’t prosecute the officers. He specifically drew the ire of defense lawyers and protesters, who had been holding demonstrations and threatened to block Highway 40,when he said of Murray and Beasley, “These guys were bums.”"​

Do you suppose there might be people other than the protesters and rioters who might be a little...skeptical...of whether or not McCulloch is going to bring his best case against Officer Wilson which might impede the possibility of justice being done in this case if in fact Wilson did not use justifiable force? The Feds are going to be looking over his shoulder in this case as well, perhaps they would bring another case anyway if the grand jury doesn't indict? So maybe it might have been better for him to recuse himself rather than face the specter of not indicting, the riots and protests getting worse, then the Feds bringing a civil rights case like for the Rodney King incident?
 
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Cylinder said:
Zimmerman was charged by information, so there was no grand jury -- just an affidavit from the special prosecutor.

There is no defense - affirmative or otherwise - in grand jury proceedings. The state's attorney presents evidence to establish whether or not probable cause exists to charge a person with a crime. It's not uncommon for a defense attorney to present evidence to a state's attorney to submit to the grand jury but generally only the state's version of events is heard. Of course, returning indictments is not the only function of a grand jury.

Duties of grand jury.

540.031. A grand jury may make inquiry into and return indictments for all grades of crimes and shall make inquiry into all possible violations of the criminal laws as the court may direct. The grand jury may examine public buildings and report on their conditions.​
​

In this instance, the DA's comments seem to indicate this is an " inquiry into all possible violations of the criminal laws," as the evidence is being presented as the investigation unfolds.

A grand jury's power is fairly broad:

540.240. All grand juries are hereby authorized to find and present bills of indictment for either felonies or misdemeanors committed against the laws of the state.​

A grand jury is made of of 12 voting members and alternates which can serve for 6 months + 60 days. The convening judge has the power to dismiss the jury.

Selection of grand jurors, summons and jury qualification form--notification of persons not qualified to serve--alternate grand jurors--length of service--compensation

4. Those persons summoned for grand jury service shall be placed under the control and supervision of the presiding judge of the circuit court, or a judge designated by the presiding judge, who shall select twelve persons to serve as grand jurors. Alternate grand jurors as determined by the judge shall also be selected, to serve as a grand juror upon the death, disqualification, or inability of one of the persons selected as a regular grand juror. The names of those persons selected as grand jurors and alternate grand jurors shall be deleted from the grand jury list.

5. The presiding judge of the circuit court, or a judge designated by the presiding judge, shall have the authority to convene, recess, and adjourn a grand jury as, in his discretion, he deems necessary, and at times and places as he specifies. No grand jury shall be required to serve for longer than a six-month period, except such term may be extended for a period not to exceed sixty days, solely for the purpose of considering and completing matters already before the grand jury. No new matters shall be presented to the grand jury during its extended service. Nothing contained in this section prevents the convening of another grand jury during such extended service.​

An indictment requires a supermajority vote.

True bill--concurrence by nine grand jurors.

540.250. No indictment can be found without the concurrence of at least nine grand jurors. When so found, and not otherwise, the foreperson of the grand jury shall certify under his hand that such indictment is a true bill, by the following endorsement thereon, thus: "A true bill. A B, foreperson".​


Grand jury proceedings are secret.

Grand juror not to disclose evidence--penalty.

540.320. No grand juror shall disclose any evidence given before the grand jury, nor the name of any witness who appeared before them, except when lawfully required to testify as a witness in relation thereto; nor shall he disclose the fact of any indictment having been found against any person for a felony, not in actual confinement, until the defendant shall have been arrested thereon. Any juror violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a class A misdemeanor.​
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Does the fact that this prosecutor chose to have this case presented before a grand jury mean that he personally believes that Wilson committed a crime?
 
Ammonitida said:
Does the fact that this prosecutor chose to have this case presented before a grand jury mean that he personally believes that Wilson committed a crime?
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No, it does not mean that. It may mean that. It may also mean that the prosecutor personally believes that it is politically necessary to bring the case to trial, and that he has enough evidence to convince a grand jury that such a step is worth taking. It could also mean that the prosecutor is agnostic about whether Wilson committed a crime, but that the prosecutor has enough evidence to convict him whether he committed a crime or not. It could also mean any number of other things about the personal beliefs of the prosecutor.

The nice thing about our justice system is that it recognizes that the prosecutor's personal beliefs, like those of the defense lawyer, are irrelevant to the case, and therefore the system includes processes designed to actively resist influence from his personal beliefs. Whatever you imagine his personal beliefs to be, I recommend you do the same.
 
Ammonitida said:
Does the fact that this prosecutor chose to have this case presented before a grand jury mean that he personally believes that Wilson committed a crime?
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No. The prosecutor can have the jury inquire generally. The canon of ethics require that the prosecutor personally believe that a person is guilty of a crime before they ask for an indictment. Or at least appear to believe it....
 
theprestige said:
The nice thing about our justice system is that it recognizes that the prosecutor's personal beliefs, like those of the defense lawyer, are irrelevant to the case, and therefore the system includes processes designed to actively resist influence from his personal beliefs. Whatever you imagine his personal beliefs to be, I recommend you do the same.
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That's true in that a prosecutor's opinion isn't evidence. The best way to describe it is recognizing that a prosecutor serves many masters. They are responsible to the people of the jurisdiction who they protect, to the state who they represent, and to the law which they are sworn to enforce. Most significantly, though, they are responsible to objective truth. It's not unusual for a prosecutor to decline a case out of personal belief. That doesn't bind the state, though.
 
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