Cain
Straussian
None of this ever would have happened if the store owner had a gun.
Michael Brown Shooting
- Thread starter Unabogie
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KatieG
Rootin' Tootin' Raspberry
Which directly contradicts the statement of the Ferguson police chief who said the officer did not know. Get your stories straight, guys!
And if that were true, why was it reported that the officer was hassling the boys to get out of the middle of the street? Certainly a robbery, with the evidence in plain view, would be more reason for the officer to say that.
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Unabogie
Philosopher
I do love the liberal use of the word "robbery". When I hear that word, I think of a guy carrying a gun, taking what's in the bank vault or your wallet or your cash register. This seems like he got busted shoplifting cigarellos and pushed his way out.
I'm sure it's technically robbery, but whatever.
Also, Chief Jackson repeatedly said Wilson had no idea about the robbery and that Brown was not a suspect in any crime, particularly when he was shot. Now he's changing his story, and it's everyone else who has the credibility problem?
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
"Outrageous! A store owner killed a kid for taking cigars!"
The police chief says not. You might state that the officer thought Brown was acting odd at some point (I am allowing this to be generous, but it is not an established fact) but apparently the officer never knew of the robbery before he shot Brown. Do you dispute this?
Did you watch the video? All of it, from both cameras? This was not shoplifting at all, it was exactly what the Ferguson PD claim it was, a strong-arm robbery. You should also read the police report because it details the clerks statement:
http://www.businessinsider.com/cop-who-shot-michael-brown-didnt-know-he-was-robbery-suspect-2014-8
Shoplifting is taking something, concealing it, and then trying to get out of the store undetected. The suspect in the video literally grabs the merchandise from behind the counter, walks out, and when confronted he threatens the store clerk. That's a robbery, it matters not that he only stole "cigarillos".
Skeptic Tank
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Unless the chief was just trying to play it safe by not saying anything that hadn't been strictly established, and was trying to convey that Wilson didn't KNOW that they were the robbers. Do you remember his exact words?
I'm reminded of the cops' stressing that they cannot, at this time, absolutely prove it was Brown in the video, when meanwhile we all know it's him because it's... him.
But police have different standards about what they can say and when they can say it. Rules about release of evidence, etc. This is why the word "allegedly" has gotten so popular in crime reports in recent decades. Even the media was taught they had to be careful on some of these same points. Lawsuits taught both police and media.
So again, based on your recollection of the chief's statements, are you sure he wasn't just emphasizing that Wilson didn't know for sure that Brown and Dorian had been the robbers, as opposed to saying he was totally unaware of the robbery or the possibility they were involved?
It sure is robbery. Don't you appreciate the difference in severity between trying to sneak something into your coat and leave the store without the clerk ever being aware you've taken anything... and brazenly grabbing a massive stack of expensive ($49 worth) cigarillos, in full view of the clerk, openly defying any attempt on his part to stop you, and then using violence to secure your escape? I guess Brown should get the community achievement award for not knocking the clerk out with a single punch. I admire his great restraint in merely grabbing him by the scruff of the neck and pushing him into a display stand... then menacing him and conveying his willingness to take the violence further, when the clerk didn't fully and immediately back off. What a gentle giant
One way strong arm robbery like that is obviously more severe, is that once violence of any level is introduced, it can spiral out of control very rapidly. What if the clerk had produced a weapon?
Monketi Ghost
Confusion Reactor
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Some people will do anything to excuse thieves.
Distracted1
Philosopher
You are right, just a technicality. Clearly a harmless " kid" just grabbing a few stogies to feed his hungry siblings. How could this teddy bear ever assault an officer or be a danger to society?
I think the strategy is to minimize the crime so that it's easier to make the leap to "it doesn't matter what Brown did", but Brown's actions just prior to his confrontation with the police do matter a great deal.
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Re
Guess we'll see how committed this evenings protests will be, in the pouring rain.
Unabogie
Philosopher
No one is excusing thieves. I'm simply pointing out that this alleged theft is being used as an excuse for shooting an unarmed kid seven times, while his hands were up, by taking an unrelated event and using it as justification for any use of force. Noting that the alleged robbery is not the kind of robbery that one usually thinks of is only trying to put it into the proper context and perspective. If anything, you could say some people will do anything to excuse the killing of young black males, since they're using this as if it says "SEE, WE WERE RIGHT! DEAD THUG IS GOOD!"
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Or try to make them look like Jean Valjean stealing bread to feed his sister's starving kids...
Skeptic Tank
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They sure will. Although if the thief was white, you'd be seeing considerably less effort to do so. It's part of the ongoing war on black accountability. White liberals are the cavalry.
Aren't you aware of the magical properties of a visit to a convenience store? For 5 hours afterward, nothing you do, no matter the circumstances, can be bad. Skittles and cigarillos are like a talisman against anything being your fault.
If someone questions you or keeps an eye on you in any way and you react with wild, murderous violence - that's on them, not you. They had no business being suspicious of you, and that suspicion could have ONLY been based on your skin color. Not you being a criminal acting suspiciously.
Indeed. They tell us a lot about Brown's state of mind when a police officer pulled up and started questioning him, whether the officer was aware of his connection (or possible connection) to the heist or not. In all likelihood, Brown was convinced the officer either knew or was going to find out during further interaction, if he allowed such interaction, about his involvement.
To Brown, the stakes were high. I'm not sure how versed he was on the law, but I'm seeing something about a November 2013 burglary and assault he'd gotten snagged for, so he definitely knew getting caught with stolen merchandise by a cop when he'd used violence to steal it... was not a situation he wanted to be in.
Was the fear of those consequences great enough to justify him assaulting a police officer, and possibly even being willing to kill that officer with his own weapon had he been able to do so? I'd say so, yes.
Because the very fact that the officer ended up shooting him is pretty compelling evidence of him reacting like that, especially when coupled with the officer saying he did. Except in the minds of people who want to believe that white police officers kill young black men for no better reason than them not getting on the sidewalk fast enough and respectfully enough. I live in the real world, so I don't believe that.
KatieG
Rootin' Tootin' Raspberry
Some people will do anything to excuse police behaviour.
Skeptic Tank
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If you had to choose between all the police in America vanishing through a wormhole this very instant, vs. all the people who steal, assault, riot, loot, rape, and murder vanishing instead... which would you choose?
Maybe you should reconsider going to bat for the people who would just view you as a juicy victim under the right circumstances, and start supporting those who try to keep you safe.
Except that this is far from proven, and it simply doesn't matter in terms of the issue under discussion. Brown's state of mind may make it more or less likely that he assaulted the officer. But either way, the officer cannot justifiably shot Brown when he was running away if Brown was not a direct and immediate threat of harm. I await evidence about the first issue that will allow me to form a conclusion. But I still have not been provided evidence that suggests the final, fatal shooting was justified. If you have that, please tell me.
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Is there a third choice: that the police do their job as we ask, and don't disappear?
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
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That's a good point.
But help me out here. Do I root for law enforcement when they are attempting to impound the cattle of white criminals? Or only when they are killing black criminals? Because I've been getting mixed messages lately about when cops are supposed to be considered the good guys.
Skeptic Tank
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That's basically the option we're living in right now, with the obvious allowance for police being human beings.
They certainly aren't some malevolent force out murdering citizens for no reason, though you'd think they were if you only listened to certain people.
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