Michael Brown Shooting

[dudalb]

Here's a question nobody seems to be asking: when the cop stopped Brown on the street, did he even know about the robbery? Everybody's assuming these events are related, and they might not be.

Tthe whole thing about the robbery might be a red herring.

Apparently not,the police chief announced a few minutes ago.

If true, this is still another game changer.

This going to be a very,very, complex case, and complex cases make for bad law.

I am getting a very bad feeling that this case might make the racial divide in this country a lot worse then it already is.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Keep in mind, part of officer training includes learning how to recognize behavioral signs that the person you just stopped to question over something minor is in fact worried you've stopped him for something major.

Irrelevant to shooting a fleeing or surrendering suspect.

Or, if you prefer, continue to subscribe to the fairy tale where police officers decide to just execute black men for no reason whatsoever. Not sure why you'd want to believe that... especially since it isn't true, but knock yourself out.

Classic straw man.

Murder by pissed off cop with a chip on his shoulder that young black men are criminals that disrespect the police.

And even if the latter part of that is true, it's the cop's job to have better control than that.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here's a question nobody seems to be asking: when the cop stopped Brown on the street, did he even know about the robbery? Everybody's assuming these events are related, and they might not be.

Tthe whole thing about the robbery might be a red herring.

According to the police chief, the cop didn't know about the theft.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I personally think that statistics prove that police in Missouri are more likely to shoot at some races than others, but I suspect that you have some reason to justify your own belief.

Um, of course the statistics prove that.

If you have two races, one of which commits violent crime at a rate eight times that of the other, who are far more likely on average to use a weapon during a robbery than the other group is, who are far more likely to resist arrest and assault police officers, etc... then OF COURSE that group is going to get shot by police more often. Appropriately so.

I can't imagine how that would be anything other than blatantly obvious.

Not trying to be insulting of you, just of the notion in general... by the way this is all backed up by crime statistics. This and much more.

 

[Kaosium]

We don't yet know what kind of car the cop had. Some call it a truck so maybe SUV?

Most reports are it was a car, one did say truck.

My Ford truck has a full frame around the window. It's conceivable that Brown might have slammed the door on the officer's head instead of leg. That would explain the grappling, the "let go or I'll shoot, I'm going to shoot", the initial shot (at least), the shooting of a fleeing felon.

You be squashing my head in a car door, darn right I will hit back with whatever hammer I have.

I've been trying to figure out the details of this myself. The swollen head may well have been the door being slammed back, it could also have come from the struggle. Dorian Johnson had the door being slammed back (as a rebound) and then the officer reaching through the window, obviously of course Mr. Johnson's credibility is in question, I wonder though if he might have had this part right? Or at least partially right in that it started through the window, perhaps by Brown reaching in?

But where did the report of the officer giving warning come from? Do witness stories differ on that?

That's from Dorian Johnson's account, the anonymous one never claimed to witness that part and I don't recall the woman mentioning that. However Johnson said it was that the officer let go after first grabbing his neck and then his shirt and then said he'd shoot.

Incidentally, here's something I just found: Dorian Johnson told police and FBI about the cigarillos. Recall that he wasn't interviewed by police initially, it was a couple days after his media interview that he officially talked with police:

“We see that there’s tape, that they claim they got a tape that shows there was some sort of strong-armed robbery,” said Freeman Bosley, Johnson’s attorney. “We need to see that tape, my client did tell us and told the FBI that they went into the store. He told FBI that [Brown] did take cigarillos. He told that to the DOJ and the St. Louis County Police.”​

This article also (seems to) indicate the officer was not aware Brown and Johnson were involved in the strong-armed robbery. It also confirms that Darren Wilson is white.

 

[newyorkguy]

The law has some discretion. Some cops (and prosecutors) like to throw the book at suspects but not all. And throwing the book at people is not justice. I've seen people get arrested for shoplifting and when confronted they often become threatening. Charge a nineteen-year-old kid with robbery and assault over some cigars? That doesn't seem just, that seems like overcharging him. I'd opt for shoplifting and harassment. Especially if Brown had no priors.

In fact I think you'll find, Ferguson MO notwithstanding, that is normally the way the system works. When I've been in court I've heard judges ask people in similar cases (or what seemed like similar cases), "So why didn't you pay for the cigars, Mr. Brown. Do you think businesses can afford to have customers walk out without paying for merchandise. No? Then why didn't you pay?"

Now if he did assault the officer, in a way that left a visible mark, then no matter where this happened, Brown was going to be in some serious trouble.

 

[dudalb]

All cops should be wearing bodycams while on duty.

Agreed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Reports are that he didn't, but the call went out about an in progress robbery. It seems like he had to have heard that on his radio.

Then again, maybe he was out of service at the time?

Again, according to the chief, Wilson was on the call of a person needing medical attention shortly before and had not known about the robbery.

Wilson might give a different story himself, but the chief just threw that option under the bus.

 

[Giordano]

It does match with the facts we were given. Bruised head fersure, Though I am not sure where the "let go or I'll shoot' came from.



No, but that first shot while the cop was in his car is covered for sure.

And we have discussed how a cop can shoot a fleeing known felon. And known felon-nes is obvious, Felonious Assault with a car door.

Move along, nothing for Rev Al to carp about here.

Keep trying. How the cop got a head bruise, how severe it was, and it it was a framed car door, is purest speculation. And I have been careful to only talk about the legality of the shooting after Brown was fleeing (and I asked you laready how Mr. Brown met the criteria required for a cop to shoot at a fleeing felon-have you responded? I know this thread is fast moving). I don't know the facts in the case of the first shot: that could have been legal or not. We have only the cop's quoted testimony as evidence of this, so far.

By the way- I am glad that you have convicted Mr. Brown of Felonious Assault, but do you mind if I await a more official judgement?

 

[Unabogie]

Apparently not,the police chief announced a few minutes ago.

If true, this is still another game changer.

This going to be a very,very, complex case, and complex cases make for bad law.

I am getting a very bad feeling that this case might make the racial divide in this country a lot worse then it already is.

Correct. The officer in question did not know about the alleged robbery.

As for Dorian Johnson's story, the police said about him:

Asked whether Dorian Johnson will be charged, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said today, “No. We determined he didn’t steal anything or use force.”

So I'm not sure why any of this would call his honesty into question.

Until this morning, the Department claimed that Brown was not a suspect in any other police activity.

This is odd. If they've considered him a "primary suspect" in a crime all this time, or the crime had something to do with his death, then why didn't they say this immediately, especially if the video backs them up (as it appears to do)?

In other words, even if Brown had stolen $20 worth of cigarillos at some point, that was not related to this shooting, as the reason for the stop was still just ordering two people to "get the **** on the sidewalk", and then an unarmed man being shot nearly ten times while his hands were up.

All this unrelated info does is very effectively smear the victim and give race boners to the "race realists" among us. It's the equivalent of telling a jury that a rape victim was a slut.

For the record, I've been busy, and I do, in fact, agree that this is Brown in the video. That seems beyond dispute.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Can or would they look for Brown's fingerprints somewhere on the gun?

Good point.

But if Wilson is a typical cop he'll say Brown's hand didn't contact the gun.

And you can bet he'll say he thought Brown was reaching for a weapon, not holding his hands up in surrender.

Three witnesses say Brown was surrendering after being shot twice. The cop will no doubt say he 'believed' otherwise.

They better have an unimpeachable autopsy. And they might since the chief sent the body to the county for the autopsy believing they could do a better job of keeping the results under wraps than his own autopsy setting. Blood spatter is going to be critical.

 

[newyorkguy]

God I hope you make the move to the new forum. This would be hard to replicate out of whole cloth.

I was posting in this thread this morning and then it went completely haywire. You can almost hear the wolves baying at the moon!

This is headed for moderation. Or so I hope.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

All cops should be wearing bodycams while on duty.

Agreed.

I agree too. But I have a feeling the nut left may not like what they wished for.

 

[jimbob]

Which does not mean that they fakes evidence against Brown...which is where you seem to be going with this story. I have a very low opinion of the Law Enforcement agencies invovled, but to me the handling of the aftermath of the shootings..which was simply terrible in every regard....and what actually took place during the shootings are two different questions. Even if it was justified shooting, that does not excuse how the local law enforcement handled the aftermath.

I wasn't trying to imply that. But that the problems with the police authorities in Ferguson go further than this one incident.

And if I was reading that article correctly, the officers used to be responsible for recording their own disciplinary files.

 

[LTC8K6]

Again, according to the chief, Wilson was on the call of a person needing medical attention shortly before and had not known about the robbery.

Wilson might give a different story himself but the chief just through that option under the bus.

Odd. I thought the report was that he was on the medical call and left it when he heard the radio call about the robbery.

Transcript is not clear but it seems like the officer had to have heard the call on the radio.

"So I just want to give you a little time line of what happened on August 9th. From 11:48 to noon, the officer involved in the shooting was on a sick call in Glen Arc. There was an ambulance present. At 11:51 there was a 911 call from a convenience store nearby, not this one. At 11:52 dispatch gave a description of robbery suspect over the radio. A different officer arrived at the store, where the strong-arm robbery occurred. A further description, more detail, was given over the radio and stated the officer was walking toward (sic), or the suspect was walking toward QuikTrip. Our officer left the sick call, he encountered the, I'm sorry. At 12:01 p.m., our officer encountered Michael Brown on Canfield"

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

In other words, even if Brown had stolen $20 worth of cigarillos at some point, that was not related to this shooting, as the reason for the stop was still just ordering two people to "get the **** on the sidewalk",

You do understand that it is illegal to walk down the middle of the street, right? So the officer was within his rights to tell them to get on the sidewalk. I'm sure we can all agree on that.

...and then an unarmed man being shot nearly ten times while his hands were up.

That's what some people are saying.

 

[William Parcher]

Is the storekeeper wondering when the hell are the cops going to arrest Johnson for accessory to robbery?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

But if Wilson is a typical cop he'll say Brown's hand didn't contact the gun.

Sounds like a definition is needed. And remember this is a skeptics forum.

Is a "typical cop" anything like a "typical black person" or a "typical Mexican"?

 

[I Am The Scum]

Three witnesses say Brown was surrendering after being shot twice. The cop will no doubt say he 'believed' otherwise.

And if this goes to trial* then the cop will argue that he was just emptying the magazine, like they taught him at the academy.

*hahahahahahahahaaa

 

[dudalb]

I wasn't trying to imply that. But that the problems with the police authorities in Ferguson go further than this one incident.

And if I was reading that article correctly, the officers used to be responsible for recording their own disciplinary files.

Oh, the Fergunson police Department seems to be everything a police department should not be.

But stilll, we need to seperate that from the specifics of the Brown case.
Even if the shooting was justified, that does not excuse what Law Enforcement did in the protests that followed.
And apparenty the St Louis Counry Police Department was heavily involved with the protests. In fact, I think the arrest of the two reporters...in many ways the most frightening thing about this...was done by St Louis County cops.