Future of the Forum

[fuelair]

This process is moving pretty quickly.

Sharon I have to tell you I think most of us appreciate your involvement and efforts. I also think most of us regret some of the surly comments directed your way. Welcome to JREF!

But, also remember those of us who did not make surly comments!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hokulele]

I posted my concerns about this in the thread in Member's Only section, but I thought it only fair and fit to post what I believe would alleviate those concerns here, publicly.

First of all, it seems as if this handover is being orchestrated with the understanding that people are looking for uninterrupted service at all cost. Is this necessarily true? Would it be better to implement a hasty solution that may require fixing simply such that we do not lose the forum for any extended length of time, or would it be better to have things shut down on a longer, but still temporary, basis in order to "get it right"?

My largest concern is that it feels like the code, database, and membership is being dumped on the first available outlet, regardless of it is the best solution or not. This outlet happens to be a commercial enterprise, with all that entails, which seems an odd transition for what has always been a non-profit endeavor.

To me, the best way to address this concern, as well as many of the others that have been raised in this thread, would be to make sure everything is backed up and archived, and let the JREF pull the plug. Yes, it would be a loss, but as I see it, that loss doesn't need to be permanent.

Once the immediate issue with the JREF has been addressed (they do not want the headaches associated with this forum), we can set up a legal entity, whether that be a US based 501(c), or some other type of organization based elsewhere, at leisure. Make sure the bylaws, financial planning, and legal issues are all set, then put out a tender for bids for the individuals or companies interested in hosting the forum, or providing other technical services.

Once the contract is in place, announce to the world that this forum, its contents, and its valuable membership is back and better than ever, baby!

This would also allow for some grass-roots advertising, via Facebook, links from the JREF, and possibly at other skeptical on-line resources (podcasts and the like) to make sure not only we do get back the "regulars", but possibly drum up some new blood.

If anyone else thinks this is reasonable, I am willing to help where needed, or assist in drafting a formal proposal to JREF.

 

[pgimeno]

As has been mentioned, everyone will be emailed, and JREF will continue to link to the site. The only noticeable change (unless we update the software at the start) will be the removal of the JREF logo.

Doing so (updating the software at the start) would make things too rushed. Changing site first and migrating later would earn you lots of time to:

- Prepare/adjust migration scripts.
- Test.
- Fix any problems that arise.
- Rinse, repeat, until last step is flawless(-ish).
- Do the switch with minimal downtime and no message loss.

My understanding is that switching servers is urgent, and switching software at the same time is too risky.

 

[xterra]

[...]

To me, the best way to address this concern, as well as many of the others that have been raised in this thread, would be to make sure everything is backed up and archived, and let the JREF pull the plug. Yes, it would be a loss, but as I see it, that loss doesn't need to be permanent.

Once the immediate issue with the JREF has been addressed (they do not want the headaches associated with this forum), we can set up a legal entity, whether that be a US based 501(c), or some other type of organization based elsewhere, at leisure. Make sure the bylaws, financial planning, and legal issues are all set, then put out a tender for bids for the individuals or companies interested in hosting the forum, or providing other technical services. [...]

How do "we" -- whoever that includes -- meet to set up this entity? Where online do we discuss it? I am very interested in seeing this community continue. I am not on, nor will I join, Facebook for reasons that have nothing to do with this forum.*

The continuity of discussion is very well served by a forum, as we can see in this discussion. Given that JREF has said they will support the present forum for six months, we have time right here for the discussions, for establishing a board, for setting up a Membership Agreement, etc.

ETA that if pgimeno is correct, in the post just prior to this one, moving slowly in haste would also answer some of his points.

*ETA again to say that I am also committed to the continuation of the forum and of the community. Count me as a donor-subscriber.

 

[tsig]

I dunno. Brand was mentioned way back in the beginning as one of the concerns of the organization, and the forum not reflecting where they want to go with their brand was given as justification for cutting us loose.

As for what they believe their brand to actually be... I haven't the foggiest. Presumably something to do with education and perhaps also skepticism... but I'm not taking any bets.

Thanks, I'd always suspected that the foundation was originally set up mainly to handle the scheduling and handling the money from Randi's speaking engagements and things kinda just grew from there. When someone suggested that they start a forum it sounded like the thing to do at the time so here we are.

 

[The Shrike]

I apologize if my questions seem juvenile or obtuse. As someone largely in the dark about scuttlebutt in the skeptical community - and illiterate of all the computer mumbo-jumbo tossed around - this thread has been really confusing to me.

So is it likely that whatever branding the JREF goes through results in them developing a new discussion forum? Is the problem that the leadership doesn't value a discussion forum or that they simply don't like this one?

As this forum moves to another home, I'm assuming that it will need a new name, correct? The whole point, as I understand it, is that the JREF does not wish to be affiliated with the JREF Forum. So, how will that be worked out?

 

[Soapy Sam]

Doing so (updating the software at the start) would make things too rushed. Changing site first and migrating later would earn you lots of time to:

- Prepare/adjust migration scripts.
- Test.
- Fix any problems that arise.
- Rinse, repeat, until last step is flawless(-ish).
- Do the switch with minimal downtime and no message loss.

My understanding is that switching servers is urgent, and switching software at the same time is too risky.

But time is money.
I'm unsure if JREF's offer to fund the forum for 6 months applies only to the current server setup or to a new one, as JREF would then be paying twice for a forum they would rather not support at all, unless they can end their present contract the moment they close this version.

Also, once the immediate pressure is off, we will all forget the close brush with oblivion and return to the traditional custom of objecting vociferously at the slightest suggestion of change.

'twas ever thus.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

I apologize if my questions seem juvenile or obtuse. As someone largely in the dark about scuttlebutt in the skeptical community - and illiterate of all the computer mumbo-jumbo tossed around - this thread has been really confusing to me.

So is it likely that whatever branding the JREF goes through results in them developing a new discussion forum? Is the problem that the leadership doesn't value a discussion forum or that they simply don't like this one?

As this forum moves to another home, I'm assuming that it will need a new name, correct? The whole point, as I understand it, is that the JREF does not wish to be affiliated with the JREF Forum. So, how will that be worked out?

I suspect they want a system more like Richard Dawkins' "forum". Which isn't really a forum.

There's a thread (or two) about a new name. As is typical, it's like herding cats.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

... snip......

A voluntary donation approach is more likely to keep a larger population engaged and active. Which retains as much of the community as possible - and I assume this would be the goal of claiming ownership of the forum as a thing of its own separate from JREF.

I really don't think the finances are an issue here.
It's always been free. And that attracts surfers.
And that is gonna work out. It's the least of the issues.

There does seem to be some here worried about privacy.
So what good does it do to have someone send in a
credit card payment of ten dollars? Or paypal?
Meaning hundreds sending in a few dollars apiece.
Every month?

I think it becomes a nightmare.
In terms of management, logistics and what people seem to want here.

I think there are enough people here that would send in a 100 bucks or more
that a years work could be done in a day.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes. I'd also have thought the main threat of lawsuits came from outside rather than inside the forum.

Anyone inside the forum who makes legal threats very quickly finds themselves outside it.

 

[Hokulele]

How do "we" -- whoever that includes -- meet to set up this entity? Where online do we discuss it? I am very interested in seeing this community continue. I am not on, nor will I join, Facebook for reasons that have nothing to do with this forum.*

The continuity of discussion is very well served by a forum, as we can see in this discussion. Given that JREF has said they will support the present forum for six months, we have time right here for the discussions, for establishing a board, for setting up a Membership Agreement, etc.

ETA that if pgimeno is correct, in the post just prior to this one, moving slowly in haste would also answer some of his points.

*ETA again to say that I am also committed to the continuation of the forum and of the community. Count me as a donor-subscriber.

Depending on the interest level, it could be something as simple as a series of conference calls via GoToMeeting or the like set up through e-mails. This would work for a smallish group of people who know each other, such as Jeff, icerat, Lisa, and/or anyone such as they. It could be something more complex such as a WordPress blog where a page is set up with a draft of the bylaws, etc., and the comments kept open, but moderated solely to prevent spam and the like.

Based on Sharon's post of this morning, we do have a week to come up with (constructive) suggestions, so I am hoping that means we have at least a week of access to the forums here before anything drastic happens.

 

[John Jones]

Seriiously, we need to start thinking about funding. I understand that we will get something of a "Golden Hankshake" from JREF for a limited amount of time,but it won't last forever, and TANSTAAFL always applies....There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Someone has to pay.
I don't like Banner Ads, but realistically they are probably going to be necessary.

It's been discussed several times. A few people have offered USD 100 for the transition, and some have offered monthly contributions. Some have offered to pick-up the whole tab.

I've been wrong plenty of times before, but I don't think funding is going to be an insurmountable hurdle.

 

[jhunter1163]

It's been discussed several times. A few people have offered USD 100 for the transition, and some have offered monthly contributions. Some have offered to pick-up the whole tab.

I've been wrong plenty of times before, but I don't think funding is going to be an insurmountable hurdle.

Icerat has, IIRC, offered to host the forum on his own equipment and/or pay for the needed hardware and software. I was one of those who offered $100 for the transition, and that offer is still open; I don't have a problem with helping to defray the forum's expenses.

 

[asydhouse]

Parasites like me like sprawling sites.

Somewhat seriously, this is troubling in the same way that my local library culling books is troubling.

I want to talk about music on a site like this, not a music site full of woo, or a dedicated microtonal forum attempting to convert the masses to its mission.

Yes, expansive like a University! A garden of symbiosis, my friend!

 

[asydhouse]

The fact that numerous posters have said they had little or no interest in or even awareness of JREF beyond the forum, if it reflects a common attitude on the forum, supports JREF's own case- namely that forum users are not , typically, JREF member / contributors.
We can't say we ignored JREF, then grumble that JREF ignored us.

I think it is regrettable that we largely did talk past each other. I think JREF could have made more of the forum. I think the forum could have been more interested in JREF.

It's all water under the bridge now. The split was inevitable eventually and it might have gone worse. We only have to remember the RDF disaster.

Whether we, as individuals, choose to support JREF in future is a purely personal call, as it always was. It's certain the JREFenix Phorum will need financed and by contributing to that we presumably save JREF the costs of this one , so that's a donation of sorts.

A couple of days back, we were in shock. Now we are at the indignant stage and we may be in the huff for a few weeks, but when we look back from a month or so down the line, I hope we will remember that JREF built this community- even if that was never it's principal aim. Personally, my respect for James Randi and for what he has struggled to do, continues.
We are leaving, but let's not forget our roots.

Nominated! For walking and talking with dignity.

 

[ynot]

It's a great relief that the word "bright" hasn't been included in any suggestions.

 

[asydhouse]

It's a great relief that the word "bright" hasn't been included in any suggestions.

erm… sorry?

 

[icerat]

Doing so (updating the software at the start) would make things too rushed. Changing site first and migrating later would earn you lots of time to:

- Prepare/adjust migration scripts.
- Test.
- Fix any problems that arise.
- Rinse, repeat, until last step is flawless(-ish).
- Do the switch with minimal downtime and no message loss.

My understanding is that switching servers is urgent, and switching software at the same time is too risky.

Now that backups have been done the immediate fear of loss of the lot has been mitigated so things have calmed down a little.

The current plan (more details later) that the admins and I like has two major phases - 1st just move the current setup to new hardware, still under ownership and control of JREF and current admins, 2nd step will involving moving to new ownership.

At the moment I'm tending towards doing the legwork (much as you list) on new software between step 1 and step 2 and launching with the upgraded software when it officially transitions to new ownership.

It may of course be that someone else comes up with a brilliant idea JREF likes and would like to proceed with. I've indicated I'm perfectly happy to step aside if that happens and won't call out the lawyers

 

[jsfisher]

The current plan (more details later) ....

Is there a schedule, tentative or otherwise, that you can share?

 

[ceptimus]

Doesn't the copyright agreement posters agreed to when they signed up preclude the JREF from transferring the copyright to a new owner?

By posting on the Forum a Member grants the JREF a non-exclusive licence to publish, republish or reproduce their work, in its entirety or as the JREF sees fit, in perpetuity. The James Randi Educational Foundation is the copyright holder of the JREF Forum.

The tricky phrase is 'in perpetuity.'