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Future of the Forum

So the JREF is changing gears, and the forum is not part of the their future plans. Whatever the reasons, that's their decision, and that's where we start.

They have two choices:

1) Turn off the forum. Thanks for all the fish, the highway must come through. It would take them minutes to do this, and then they could go on with their business.

2) Transition the forum to someone else. That involves the JREF staff having meetings, making difficult decisions, monitoring threads, worrying about unforeseen issues... in short, it's a pain in the (what's under MdC's hat).

Against much logic and personal self-interest, the JREF chose option 2. Not only did they do that, they offered to pay for the new server for six months.

Why would the JREF do this? To maintain their reputation? That seems unlikely... their reputation seems to be suffering though this process.

I can only conclude that the JREF, or at least a subset of what the JREF is, actually cares about the forum and the community that's been created.

It's an awkward and sometimes ugly process, but in a way, a lot of people are complaining about the quality of the caviar on the life boat.

I think they have just come out and said it. Several times.

Take that a step further though. Sharon is the one who lobbied that the forum be saved. Maybe she lowered the lifeboats too quickly, and some heads were bumped. Maybe some lifeboats are more crowded than others... it wasn't a perfect process. She's not saying it was. But she is trying to make sure all the lifeboats are getting what they need now.

From her perspective, she's saved everyone and all they're doing is whining at her. It's not technically true, but that's how these things feel. I know, because I've been in nearly the exact same position.

Sharon has a tough skin and can handle the slings and barbs, but why not give her some room? You may have a point, but don't use it to puncture the side of the boat.

I tend to agree with all of this.
I am actually surprised this website wasn't cut loose a long time ago.
Randi doesn't care about it. It doesn't really add anything to him or the JREF.
call me a ct'er but I tend to wonder whether we will see an obit in the next 6 months.

Anyway. I don't worry about the finances. There are enough of us here that can afford to donate.
I don't really worry about the privacy issues.
I just hope that Darat and Lisa Simpson and Locknar and LashL and all the mods carry over to the next site.
who actually owns it?
I think most people would like to see a longtime poster like Jeff in charge but once it is up and running
I tend to think it won't make a difference.
Change is always hard and people are used to their ole comfortable brown shoe.
People sometimes need a kick in the pants.
Maybe it's time to promote Shemp to Admin. I think he has extended the offer.
 
I was thinking this too. I am a numb-skull, but what if part of the registration agreement was a promise never to initiate lawsuits for anything posted within?

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you can't sign away your rights. At least not in Canada. EDIT: Meaning it would probably depend on the nature of the lawsuit, there's probably cases where such an agreement would be fine, and cases where it wouldn't be.
 
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That sounds like a fantastic idea. ;)

Lol d'oh.

As long as they don't start using their old account again, I don't see why a special exception couldn't be made.

ETA: I suppose that depends on trusting that they really are who they claim to be... OK, there is a problem with that.

There's a problem either way. Can't allow access to an account without some kind of verification (otherwise what's stopping someone from claiming someone else's account, a whole new fun way to troll). And can't ban some eternally from the forum just because they didn't update their email address or password before the move.

There'd be none of the information usually used to identify a sockpuppet anyway, so how would we tell the difference between an actual new user and a user with an existing ID reregistering because didn't update their password or email address before the move?

Or will these cases be rare enough or non-existent so it's not worth worrying about?
 
From Sharon's clarification, it appears that there might actually be two different questions in play here. One, what kind of forums (if any) should the JREF have in the future, and two, what to do with these forums?

Everybody's been talking about the second question (for obvious reasons), but maybe it would help to consider the first as well.

The reason they're two different questions is that if, as appears to be the case, JREF now wants forums that are focused upon a particular image and/or message, and whose image and message it can control and fine-tune as it wishes, then these forums aren't those forums. An example of that kind of forum would be the "new improved" Richard Dawkins "forums."

The problem is, there's no evidence that can be done with real open public forums moderated by volunteers. Forums don't generate consistent well-crafted narratives. They generate bits and pieces of such narrative, surrounded by noise.

There are two ways to generate consistent narrative. One is the authorial method: carefully create only the material that fits. That requires very tight control over what everyone contributes. I've seen it done successfully in forums sufficiently small to be controlled by a single person with a mission and a focus. That person is able to reply individually to every post as needed to keep all the active correspondents on message. The Forge, a gaming forum, was one example. When people say about any message board, "That place is a cult," there's a good chance that it's such an example.

The authorial approach can also be done using blogs: the blog entries set the topics and posts only on each topic are welcome, and are also heavily moderated as well. Such comments only add marginally to the content; most readers are there for the blog entries, unless they want to argue in which case you have to curtail them considerably to stay on message. The words "author" and "authoritarian" have the same root for a reason.

The other approach is the editorial method. You find a source of noise with bits and pieces of the narratives you want embedded in it, and you pick out the bits and pieces you want and arrange them to present your narrative. An example is professional sports: the events of most games taken as a whole are noisy and mostly random and generally don't make good stories, but sportswriters (and later, screenwriters etc.) pick out the interesting threads of events, put them together omitting the unnecessary noise, and turn them into stories. Reality TV shows do the same thing.

Both these methods take a lot of work. In fact, not coincidentally I believe, they're both about the same amount of work.

Now, these JREF forums have always had the "Forum Spotlight" thingie, that puts selected threads up for view in a special collection. That's a step in the direction of an editorial approach, but it needs more work to make it work. First, whole threads is too big a chunk to be enough editorial control. Interesting threads tend to be long, and what you most likely want to exhibit is a run of a few posts that get the ideas across. Second, the Forum Spotlight was not more publicly accessible and only marginally more prominent than the forum itself, which is like having your sales office be a roped off section in the middle of the factory floor. Third, there was no editorial heading for spotlighted items, saying "Here's what this thread is about and why it's interesting." Someone has to write that.

But the fact remains that, with that considerable additional ongoing editorial work, raw public forum content could be used as a resource for presenting JREF's point of view in a controlled way. That possibility stacks up well against alternatives such as getting people to write a bunch of blogs and moderate their comment threads.

But you can't "crowdsource" your own message. No form of forum will have that result.
 
But the fact remains that, with that considerable additional ongoing editorial work, raw public forum content could be used as a resource for presenting JREF's point of view in a controlled way. That possibility stacks up well against alternatives such as getting people to write a bunch of blogs and moderate their comment threads.

But you can't "crowdsource" your own message. No form of forum will have that result.

...and you would be accused of both plagiarism and distortion.:(
 
Seriiously, we need to start thinking about funding. I understand that we will get something of a "Golden Hankshake" from JREF for a limited amount of time,but it won't last forever, and TANSTAAFL always applies....There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Someone has to pay.
I don't like Banner Ads, but realistically they are probably going to be necessary.
 
Seriiously, we need to start thinking about funding. I understand that we will get something of a "Golden Hankshake" from JREF for a limited amount of time,but it won't last forever, and TANSTAAFL always applies....There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Someone has to pay.
I don't like Banner Ads, but realistically they are probably going to be necessary.

So that's what that means.:)
 
Seriiously, we need to start thinking about funding. I understand that we will get something of a "Golden Hankshake" from JREF for a limited amount of time,but it won't last forever, and TANSTAAFL always applies....There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Someone has to pay.
I don't like Banner Ads, but realistically they are probably going to be necessary.

I don't know if it was in this thread, but Lisa brought up the idea of Something Awful-type fees for certain things, like title changes or the ability to have graphics in a sig, etc.
 
Seriiously, we need to start thinking about funding. I understand that we will get something of a "Golden Hankshake" from JREF for a limited amount of time,but it won't last forever, and TANSTAAFL always applies....There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Someone has to pay.
I don't like Banner Ads, but realistically they are probably going to be necessary.

I don't know if it was in this thread, but Lisa brought up the idea of Something Awful-type fees for certain things, like title changes or the ability to have graphics in a sig, etc.

My impression is that it may only cost $3,000/yr to run it.
After the initial start-up costs.
if that is true, there are enough of us here that are somewhat wealthy
or make a good income that it won't be an issue.
I honestly don't think it will come down to selling memberships
or holding bake-sales.
I could send in a check for 3K today and it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
I tend to think funding from 10-20 people here will run the whole thing.
 
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you can't sign away your rights. At least not in Canada. EDIT: Meaning it would probably depend on the nature of the lawsuit, there's probably cases where such an agreement would be fine, and cases where it wouldn't be.

Yes. I'd also have thought the main threat of lawsuits came from outside rather than inside the forum.
 
...and you would be accused of both plagiarism and distortion.:(


Not plagiarism, because the entries would be reproductions in some form of the original forum posts, complete with the correspondents' user names. Since this is a hypothetical case where the forum continues as JREF-sponsored under current membership rules, the JREF would have copyright rights to do so as well.

Any editor, and any journalist who reports anything beyond first-hand experiences, can be accused of distortion. In this case, the original threads and posts would still exist in the forums so such accusations could be proven correct or incorrect based on readily available evidence.
 
There's a problem either way. Can't allow access to an account without some kind of verification (otherwise what's stopping someone from claiming someone else's account, a whole new fun way to troll). And can't ban some eternally from the forum just because they didn't update their email address or password before the move.

There'd be none of the information usually used to identify a sockpuppet anyway, so how would we tell the difference between an actual new user and a user with an existing ID reregistering because didn't update their password or email address before the move?

Or will these cases be rare enough or non-existent so it's not worth worrying about?

Well, you have two means of verification: your existing login credentials (ID + password), and your email. If you can provide at least one of those after the move, your account can be reactivated. If you forget both of those you're stuffed even right now. I think genuine cases like that are going to be rare.

If you forget just your password and your sign-up email address, but remember your ID, perhaps emailing the admins and providing appropriate photo ID might be a way forwards? It's tricky. Again I suspect such cases would be rare (at least, genuine ones).

ETA: I need to give the above a bit more thought, it turns out. :)

As for banned persons attempting to return, I think we'll see a temporary increase in cases post-move. Some will be readily identifiable and re-banned pretty quickly (I vote against any "amnesty" for previously banned persons, BTW), some will eventually repeat the behaviour that got them banned before. I think we might have to live with that.
 
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The fact that numerous posters have said they had little or no interest in or even awareness of JREF beyond the forum, if it reflects a common attitude on the forum, supports JREF's own case- namely that forum users are not , typically, JREF member / contributors.
We can't say we ignored JREF, then grumble that JREF ignored us.

I think it is regrettable that we largely did talk past each other. I think JREF could have made more of the forum. I think the forum could have been more interested in JREF.


I want to add one thing here in the discussion of JREF vs the forums. The first I heard of the JREF as an entity was way back in the late 90s, via USENET - specifically sci.skeptic. I'd read posts there from people who were giving highlights of the latest developments in an MDC thread, or other noteworthy discussions. Eventually I wandered out of sci.skeptic and onto the jref forums. That got me interested in Randi's writings ; I started with "The Truth About Uri Gellar" and went from there.

As the years went on I'd make a comment here and there in some trivial thread, usually entertainment related. My postings were, on the whole, utter fluff and immaterial to the JREF mission. My /readings/, however, were directly on the JREF's stated message. I knew homeopathy was bunk, but it was from reading the threads involving Dr. Mas that I first learned precisely /why/ it was bunk, and how to explain that in layman's terms to others in real life. And I did so on numerous occasions (one of which caused me to lose a friend who was deeply invested in it).

There were countless other areas where I learned quite a bit about critical thinking and the like directly from the forums. About how easily even the brightest of people can fool themselves about what they're sure they saw with their own eyes. Randi's books were a wonderful education for me (I still re read them every few years), and the forums were a great compliment which helped me learn how to relate that information to others, and get others thinking for themselves.

So while the forums may or may not have done anything to benefit the JREF as an org specifically (I honestly have no idea either way), I can say that in at least my case it did wonders for their actual mission.
 
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Well, you have two means of verification: your existing login credentials (ID + password), and your email. If you can provide at least one of those after the move, your account can be reactivated. If you forget both of those you're stuffed even right now. I think genuine cases like that are going to be rare.

Not exactly. Since I have my Admin powers back, I can search for people by their real name. As long as you know your name, I can set things to right. It does help if your real name is more unusual than John Smith.
 

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