• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Future of the Forum

I was of two minds about posting this, and I freely admit that it's a provocative posting. I do not intend to offend anyone, but reality bites sometimes.

The power company won't give the forum free electricity; the computer manufacturers won't give the forum free hardware; the registrars won't give the forum a free domain name; the hosting .. well, maybe that could be free.

Saying that the forum should be gratis is at some level not realistic. Someone(s) has to pay for these things. Who? How?



Why not? Companies fund sports events etc, why not an educational forum devoted to spreading the skills needed for a functioning future culture, i.e. critical thinking, skepticality, and science literacy?

Some Silicon Valley people are or were quite visionary and idealistic/inspired by the hippie ideals of non-monetary values being worth lived. It might be worth at least asking!
 


icerat, have you asked about how long they will allow a redirect?


That is, will:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/

...be allowed to redirect to the new forum URL indefinitely? (I'm assuming during the "6 months" but hopefully at least a couple years? Or literally indefinitely?)

I believe Sharon said in an earlier post that the JREF was willing to continue to have a link to the new forum on the JREF main site to support us. That tells me that they might not mind allowing the redirect to last for quite some time as well.

Apologies if this was already covered here or in another thread.


((Also I hope you have seen my post #807 as it contained, what I believe to be, the glue that would hold this forum together, as well as an apology to you.))
 
Re the paying v non-paying, I posted this back in post 385

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10151608&postcount=385

I still think it is a viable compromise. Free Admission gets you basic stuff, a Season Ticket gets you extra stuff and no ads on the forum. At the sports forum where this is set up, we have about 2500 active members, of which 211 are Season Ticket holders, so that brings them in about £2500 p.a., more than enough to pay for the forum.
 
Why not? Companies fund sports events etc, why not an educational forum devoted to spreading the skills needed for a functioning future culture, i.e. critical thinking, skepticality, and science literacy?

Some Silicon Valley people are or were quite visionary and idealistic/inspired by the hippie ideals of non-monetary values being worth lived. It might be worth at least asking!


Good point! Can't hurt to ask....
 
Re the paying v non-paying, I posted this back in post 385

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10151608&postcount=385

I still think it is a viable compromise. Free Admission gets you basic stuff, a Season Ticket gets you extra stuff and no ads on the forum. At the sports forum where this is set up, we have about 2500 active members, of which 211 are Season Ticket holders, so that brings them in about £2500 p.a., more than enough to pay for the forum.
Yes, this was a good post. However, you're talking about a sports forum, not a supposedly "educational" forum, it's a little bit different.
 
Simple solution: Start charging a not-insignificant annual membership fee for your forum. The fair-weather posters will drop like flies, and those who share JREF's vision get to retain their home. You get a more consistent posting narrative, and most likely you get higher buy-in for the brand that you want JREF to be.

There's no reason this would necessarily result in posters who share JREF's vision.

My son belongs to Something Awful and I guess they have a policy of if you get "banned" you have to pay $10 to come back and the money goes towards running the forum. I'd like to see something like that, and also for people who've been banned here. Pay $10 and we'll lift the ban.

Something Awful is all the evidence I need that charging for membership doesn't result in high quality posters. It's one of the most hostile forum environment I've ever posted in (certain sections of it anyway) and I've participated in a variety of different message boards.

Also bans and suspensions there often seem to happen on a whim. A forum benefiting financially from harsh moderation is IMO not a good thing.

There have been posters, at times, I´d have paid good money to see banned.

On Something Awful you can pay to defame people's avatar/signature and they have to pay if they want to change it back. Fun right? :rolleyes:
 
I still think it is a viable compromise. Free Admission gets you basic stuff, a Season Ticket gets you extra stuff and no ads on the forum. At the sports forum where this is set up, we have about 2500 active members, of which 211 are Season Ticket holders, so that brings them in about £2500 p.a., more than enough to pay for the forum.

I agree, I like the idea of a premium membership with perks as long as those perks don't exclude access or change how a member is treated or allow members to use it against someone (i.e. someone saying I'm a paying member so your opinion is inferior). But that's pretty simple to do.

The ads / no ads thing would get a lot by itself.
 
icerat, have you asked about how long they will allow a redirect?

I haven't asked actually, I'm confident there'll be no issues having it for at least long enough for the process of having google process the move. It's possible to actually tell google about a name change so googlefu isn't lost.

((Also I hope you have seen my post #807 as it contained, what I believe to be, the glue that would hold this forum together, as well as an apology to you.))

Saw it quickly but with everything going on hadn't had a chance to respond. No apologies from anyone are necessary, I understand how everyone was feeling. Some thoughts -

This forum will not truly survive with its spirit intact without two things.

#1 The entire backlog of posts/threads.

I entirely agree and I'm dedicated to that outcome. I'm confident we can keep them pretty much as is, though there'll be a little rearranging


I'm extremely happy to say that the majority of the team have committed to staying on, assuming of course - the end result is something they support. I agree with your sentiments regarding Darat and he's committed to helping with the transition and then he'll assess his position. Running something like this isn't easy for the admins and mods though, it's more work than people know, so it's likely some on the team will decide it's time for a break and let someone else cop the flack! Mods have come and gone over the years, and to a lesser extent so have admins. If any site (or organisation) depends too much on just one person though, you're always at risk. I want Darat to stay on, but I also want the forum to be able to run just as successfully without him. We'll just have to see!

Thanks. :) I'm pretty sure that was my idea.

Damn. Now I have to add a patent licence agreement to the budget

:chores021:
 
Ok folks, just going to add my perspective to the fast moving thread so people can get a better handle on what's been happening and people's motivations -

(1) A week ago I put my hand up and offered resources to help manage and maintain the forum from a technical perspective. As most know there have been serious problems, and I have significant experience and expertise in the area, as well as the ability to commit the time and resources. I simply didn't want to lose this fabulous resource, and I still don't

(2) In discussions about fixing the issues it became clear that the JREF did not have an emotional investment in the forum, did not want to continue support for the forum, and haven't for some time. It doesn't fit in to their vision of where JREF should be heading, and is a drain on time and resources. I believe Sharon was instrumental in convincing them not to just simply close the whole thing down - she deserves the community's thanks

(3) This was all occurring in the context of severe performance issues and the risk of the hardware failing completely and everything being lost.

(4) In this context, as part of establishing how to proceed, which involved communication that was copied to both Sharon, Rick Adams, and at least one other board member, the JREF principles clearly decided I had the know-how and resources to manage the forum and offered to let me simply take it over and get it fixed. They had a few requests regarding decoupling from the JREF name. I was more than surprised to receive the offer but agreed. My motivation was purely to not lose this forum, which I enjoy greatly. Rick and I have continued to have good communication in solving issues.

(5) The first order of business was dealing with the immediate risk of hardware failure and the loss of all data. After a number of attempts Rick managed to do a successful off-server backup so all would not be lost. I was given access to the server (not the forum itself, I've never had admin access and still don't) to get an understanding of the issues involved in transferring it to a new server to solve the immediate, critical, problems. This is just like any other technician working with web servers or your computers or any websites that you access, that would theoretically give me the ability to rummage through the data - but it would be quite a time consuming and difficult thing to do. Every person at the data center where the server is stored has potentially the same ability, much like technical staff at Hotmail or Google or anywhere else. I have not looked at any personal data, and I will not look at any personal data. To do so would be both unethical and illegal and put myself and my company at legal risk. Companies all the time must make decisions on who they trust to handle their data, in this situation JREF trusted me - note: not anonymous forumite "icerat" - but real world me. From the beginning we have been dealing with these issues using my corporate email account.

(6) The next order of business was to speak to all the mods/admins about the proposal and get everyone on board to get their input and ideas and make things happen to save the fourm. Unfortunately under the strain of constant peppering from curious and upset forumites Sharon revealed some of what was going on but without being able to fill in all the details (on handling privacy etc etc) and before the mods/admins were involved in the discussion. I think it's was the cumulative pressure she was under rather than Darats' emails per se that led to her "vitriolic" comments, have some sympathy for her role, it's not really what she was hired for.

Now, lots of people were understandably confused and pissed off. The admins obviously should have been in the loop earlier but it didn't happen. Fortunately good lines of communications now exist between myself, Darat, Lisa, Locknar and most other admins and mods, as well with Jeff Wagg who has great experience with this system and I know many of you have great faith in. We and JREF are pretty much all on the same page now and we're putting together a proposal and timeline for how we think things should proceed, addressing all the issues regarding privacy and content etc. They were all areas I intended to address before anything drastic happened.

The short of it is that a bunch of people who love this place want to save it, and are working to do so. For now, things are much the same as they were. The forum is still at risk of imminent failure (hello lagging) but JREF now has a backup. A plan to move forward is being developed, and we'll let everyone know what it is and asking for input as soon as it's more concrete. In the meantime you can help us try to work out a new name for our favourite place to waste time.

I hope that clarifies things. Fire away with questions publicly or in PM

This is all very well. but what happened to the blonde Swedish masseuses and beer fountains we were promised by the other contenders?
 
Thank you, Darat. I think there is a need for greater transparency. Please, stay on the job (if you can), your role as the forum liaison may be important for its survival.

D. J. Grothe (the current president of the JREF) 's email address is: djgrothe@randi.org, you can use this page to contact him (see here).

I would like to make a proposal, namely that the person in charge of the forum (Darat, real name David I understand) starts a donation drive on this forum relatively quickly (about platform, see this jhunter post). Only those who can afford it should give. The money raised could be used both to (technically) improve the forum hosting (with hopefully icerat's help), and to possibly help the JREF pay any legal fee (probably not very high, because it is not responsible for what members say in this place) it incurs because of the forum. I then propose that some influential forum members ask the JREF to reconsider.

I absolutely will not give until a statement is released by the JREF saying what they are doing and when and how user information will be treated.
 

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