Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Strozzi]

But if this were true in Italy, then why was the prosecutor so hell bent on releasing false information in advance of the trial and put such an emphasis on vilifying Knox in the media?
Wasn't it public sentiment that allowed a false conviction in the first place? Wasn't it public sentiment that fueled the annulment of the acquittal and the recent re conviction? It sure wasn't the evidence, witnesses, or anything else related to the trial.

I think public opinion influences courts in Italy, and probably elsewhere. Wasn't some Roman at some point say, "the mob is Rome". I do think its a battle that is fought in large measure outside the courtroom. maybe...

Mignini benefitted two ways from encouraging public vilification of Knox. It helped poison the court case against her, making it more difficult for judges to rule in her favor on issues including pretrial detention and evidence. Depicting Knox as sexual, manipulative, and dangerous also built up Mignini's public reputation as hero for bringing such a dangerous person to justice and protecting the public from her.

 

[Bill Williams]

he had to deal with one popular judge who was hearing contradictory things in the media - contradictory to the direction Nencini was going as the lead judge.

Do you have a source on Nencini strong arming one or more of the lay judges?

I think "strong arming" might be unwarranted... as well, my own, "he had to deal with", is probably also as unknowable....

The point is as outlined in this news piece:

Italian judge who convicted Knox investigated for media comments​

Nencini's comments were made before the court issued its full judgment, the 'motivations' that in Italy are published within 90 days of a verdict, explaining how the court reached its decision. But he appeared to hint at what the document would contain.

He indicated that Sollecito's decision not to be questioned in court might have influenced the decision, described how the jurors asked him to clarify things they had seen about the case on television, and said the crime happened in "a night between young people" when "no one had anything to do".

Justice Minister Annamaria Cancellieri ordered an "initial investigation" into the comments. Nencini defended himself in further comments to press, saying he had spoken off-the-cuff and had not intended to appraise the strategy of the defense.​

 

[NancyS]

LondonJohn, you make a very interesting observation.

Perhaps Dr. Nancy can tell us if Curatolo was not high on heroin that evening, how long would he go from his last high to withdrawal? Would there be a window of time in between his last high and before withdrawal symptoms took over when he could sit calmly on his park bench reading the newspaper under the streetlight, with clear vision, and observe the defendants for several hours as they allegedly stood off in the darkness by the railing? Unless there is an adequate window of serene behavior, I may have to conclude that Curatolo was either high or in withdrawal when he allegedly observed the defendants for several hours. What symptoms would Curatolo experience while gathering information of such value to Prosecutor Mignini?

Vibio, what do you think? If Curatolo was not high, was he convulsing from withdrawal symptoms when he observed the defendants?

Withdrawal symptoms will usually start around 6-hours for heroin as it has a short half life - methadone is much longer, which is how people can be stabilised on a once daily dose. Co-addiction is incredibly common as many people will take the edge of initial withdrawal symptoms with alcohol and benzodiazepines, as needing ever-increasing doses of 6-hourly heroin is hard to maintain long term, both for cost and the impact it has on your veins and maintaining possible sites for venous access

 

[Diocletus]

I've had difficulty logging in for a couple of days. Anyone know what happened?

 

[platonov]

I've had difficulty logging in for a couple of days. Anyone know what happened?

Mignini forced JREF to ditch the forum in a manner designed to cause it to 'implode' as this thread is threatening to expose the vast conspiracy against Britney.

See, your efforts are having an effect !

 

[Samson]

I've had difficulty logging in for a couple of days. Anyone know what happened?

Try this, I was missing the opportunity to convince people about facts that were obvious, so I contacted Lisa.


Lisa Simpson
To Me

Aug 5 at 1:14 AM
The JREF is working on making the forum more reliable and it’s causing all kinds of chaos. All I can tell you is wait it out.

Sorry.
Lisa

 

[carbonjam72]

The winds of justice are blowing favorably...

Mignini benefitted two ways from encouraging public vilification of Knox. It helped poison the court case against her, making it more difficult for judges to rule in her favor on issues including pretrial detention and evidence. Depicting Knox as sexual, manipulative, and dangerous also built up Mignini's public reputation as hero for bringing such a dangerous person to justice and protecting the public from her.

Totally agree with you. So do you think Raf's holding a press conference is in his interests? I do. I think building public support and pointing out the injustice of his case will resonate with many Italians, and I think the ISC is aware of, and influenced by public sentiment.

Douglas Presotn/Spezi's book MOF, relates that many people in Italy believe it was only the international embarrassment of Spezi's 2006 imprisonment that resulted in his release - AND - the subsequent charges against Mignini and Guitarri for their behavior in that Narducci - MOF investigation.

As I've said, I believe the recent dismissal of the case against Spezi and the last remaining defendants in the Mignini Narducci investigation is a very positive sign of which way the judicial winds are blowing. (As well as Mignini's promotion, so he will no longer investigate or try cases, and Guitarri's reappointment to the police). The danger of embarrassment to Mignini, Guitarri, the police, or the judiciary is largely past. I predict Stefanoni, Napoleoni, Zugarini and Ficara will be left without chairs when the music finally stops.

I'm optimistic about the upcoming decision before cassation.

 

[Kaosium]

I've had difficulty logging in for a couple of days. Anyone know what happened?

Short Version: the JREF was experiencing technical difficulties. They decided (eventually) not to try to fix them but cut the forum loose from the Foundation. Others have stepped up to get the forum fixed and take over administration, temporarily at the very least. One of the people who helped build the forum to what it became is considering becoming the future host. It's still up in the air as I type this, but actually the whole decolonization process seems to be going rather better than could be expected.


Long version, these two threads.

 

[Samson]

Totally agree with you. So do you think Raf's holding a press conference is in his interests? I do. I think building public support and pointing out the injustice of his case will resonate with many Italians, and I think the ISC is aware of, and influenced by public sentiment.

Douglas Presotn/Spezi's book MOF, relates that many people in Italy believe it was only the international embarrassment of Spezi's 2006 imprisonment that resulted in his release - AND - the subsequent charges against Mignini and Guitarri for their behavior in that Narducci - MOF investigation.

As I've said, I believe the recent dismissal of the case against Spezi and the last remaining defendants in the Mignini Narducci investigation is a very positive sign of which way the judicial winds are blowing. (As well as Mignini's promotion, so he will no longer investigate or try cases, and Guitarri's reappointment to the police). The danger of embarrassment to Mignini, Guitarri, the police, or the judiciary is largely past. I predict Stefanoni, Napoleoni, Zugarini and Ficara will be left without chairs when the music finally stops.

I'm optimistic about the upcoming decision before cassation.

I agree. As I understand it, these judges will be new. Luca Cheli has described how they can not rubber stamp Nencini, because his motivations report is shot full of temporal logical and forensic fallacies.
These are clear to non Italians, but I am persuaded by him that justice will prevail this time.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

forum technical problems

I've had difficulty logging in for a couple of days. Anyone know what happened?

I have had some problems also, as has Bill Williams.
ETA
Kaosium, thank you for the two links. I had not been aware of this.

 

[Desert Fox]

I agree. As I understand it, these judges will be new. Luca Cheli has described how they can not rubber stamp Nencini, because his motivations report is shot full of temporal logical and forensic fallacies.
These are clear to non Italians, but I am persuaded by him that justice will prevail this time.

I knid of what to know what Nencini's reputation was like before this case.
Is this in common with previous decisions or is this seem to come from left field?

 

[Anode]

I've had difficulty logging in for a couple of days. Anyone know what happened?

I wasn't able to as well. I saw a note about upgrading software but now it seems better. (And faster too.)

 

[Bill Williams]

Wladimiro De Nunzio

Machiavelli - why have you never called Wladimiro De Nunzio a criminal?

 

[Desert Fox]

Amanda Knox Evidence & False Confessions with James Curtis, Jim Clemente

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmjB4RTN4E

Fantastic video from Jim Clemente. Makes it a real stunner the bra clasp was kept in. I wish they did the knife as well.

Let us assume that you are pro guilt. . . . .
You should be incensed about just how badly the police screwed up.
I never however read pro guilt arguments that argue that they think they are guilty but that the prosecution badly hosed the case.

 

[Strozzi]

I've had difficulty logging in for a couple of days. Anyone know what happened?

Yea, you forgot to pay your ISP bill!

 

[Strozzi]

Totally agree with you. So do you think Raf's holding a press conference is in his interests? I do. I think building public support and pointing out the injustice of his case will resonate with many Italians, and I think the ISC is aware of, and influenced by public sentiment.

Douglas Presotn/Spezi's book MOF, relates that many people in Italy believe it was only the international embarrassment of Spezi's 2006 imprisonment that resulted in his release - AND - the subsequent charges against Mignini and Guitarri for their behavior in that Narducci - MOF investigation.

As I've said, I believe the recent dismissal of the case against Spezi and the last remaining defendants in the Mignini Narducci investigation is a very positive sign of which way the judicial winds are blowing. (As well as Mignini's promotion, so he will no longer investigate or try cases, and Guitarri's reappointment to the police). The danger of embarrassment to Mignini, Guitarri, the police, or the judiciary is largely past. I predict Stefanoni, Napoleoni, Zugarini and Ficara will be left without chairs when the music finally stops.

I'm optimistic about the upcoming decision before cassation.

A perfect example of how Italian legal cases can be influenced by the public attention they draw is the Milan prosecutor's belated prosecution of Guede years later for tresspassing in the Milan nursery and possession of stolen property. The Milan authorities did not prosecute Guede at the time of his detention and release. They were done with the matter, and only prosecuted him so many years later because of the negative attention it kept drawing to how they dealt with him in 2007. Had there been no negative ongoing publicity, they would not have picked up the case years later. Note also how his being charged and prosecuted was then kept quiet from the media.

 

[Bill Williams]

Let us assume that you are pro guilt. . . . .
You should be incensed about just how badly the police screwed up.
I never however read pro guilt arguments that argue that they think they are guilty but that the prosecution badly hosed the case.

Not entirely true. Even Mignini confessed once that his only true mistake was not taking body temperature at the earliest opportunity.

Machiavelli has said that none of the prosecutions ever focussed on "Knox's lies" about her early morning, Nov 2 shower at the cottage, as well as her "lies" about the use of the mop. About this Machiavelli has said, " But it is something huge and would deserve a chapter on its own."

Machiavelli also talks about the investigators' total lack of interest in the 13 shoeprints from at least 3 other persons located at the crime scene. "Yes I have my personal opinion about errors of investigators, but I guess it might be very different from that of this forum or of any English speaking newspaper. For example at the top of my "worse" list of mistakes there is the total failure by investigators to identify 13 prints from 3 diferent unknown shoewares, possibly all of them related to the crime. I was able to identify an All-Star, a Marrell, but I failed to identify possibly the most interesting one found in Meredith's room."

 

[Desert Fox]

Not entirely true. Even Mignini confessed once that his only true mistake was not taking body temperature at the earliest opportunity.

Machiavelli has said that none of the prosecutions ever focussed on "Knox's lies" about her early morning, Nov 2 shower at the cottage, as well as her "lies" about the use of the mop. About this Machiavelli has said, " But it is something huge and would deserve a chapter on its own."

Machiavelli also talks about the investigators' total lack of interest in the 13 shoeprints from at least 3 other persons located at the crime scene. "Yes I have my personal opinion about errors of investigators, but I guess it might be very different from that of this forum or of any English speaking newspaper. For example at the top of my "worse" list of mistakes there is the total failure by investigators to identify 13 prints from 3 diferent unknown shoewares, possibly all of them related to the crime. I was able to identify an All-Star, a Marrell, but I failed to identify possibly the most interesting one found in Meredith's room."

I have also read Machiavelli excuse multiple horrid mistake by the police officers on the scene.

 

[Strozzi]

Not entirely true. Even Mignini confessed once that his only true mistake was not taking body temperature at the earliest opportunity.

Machiavelli has said that none of the prosecutions ever focussed on "Knox's lies" about her early morning, Nov 2 shower at the cottage, as well as her "lies" about the use of the mop. About this Machiavelli has said, " But it is something huge and would deserve a chapter on its own."

Machiavelli also talks about the investigators' total lack of interest in the 13 shoeprints from at least 3 other persons located at the crime scene. "Yes I have my personal opinion about errors of investigators, but I guess it might be very different from that of this forum or of any English speaking newspaper. For example at the top of my "worse" list of mistakes there is the total failure by investigators to identify 13 prints from 3 diferent unknown shoewares, possibly all of them related to the crime. I was able to identify an All-Star, a Marrell, but I failed to identify possibly the most interesting one found in Meredith's room."

It is interesting to note that Machiavelli has a list of "worse" mistakes committed by the investigators. I wonder why the failure of the investigators to analyze the putative semen stain is not on his list.

 

[Strozzi]

I have also read Machiavelli excuse multiple horrid mistake by the police officers on the scene.

I remember Machiavelli arguing that the bloody knife stain on Meredith's bedsheet matches the dimensions of Raffaele's much larger knife. That was a stretch!