Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Machiavelli]

I'm basing it on a lot of experience working with drug dependent people. Most long term addicts are using multiple drugs, smoke and drink heavily - and their executive functioning is often shocking by the time they reach their 50s.

And as for super human feats of memory whilst on heroin - most people I meet who have just used, don't remember me the next day, even when I've sat and spoken to them for over an hour in a brightly lit room.

But Antonio Curatolo underwent questionings and cross questionings and he was always consistent, well aware, functioning, remembering and convincing.
Moreover, there is also still no evidence at all nor any report about Curatolo using multiple drugs, except tobacco use.

 

[Desert Fox]

I was thinking they were the friends that Nencini was blathering about

His idea is just so strange already that I have to wonder if he was not trying to throw the case while effectively being forced to find for guilt. If the DNA was actually there from a transgender friend, I would think that should have to be proven as actually being more likely than simple contamination (from who knows where)

 

[codyjuneau]

Comic Sans

This really is getting more and more ridiculous and inept - and I'm loving the PGP views on drugs, cannabis makes you violent, heroin makes you reliable and gives you super human memory and eyesight and now a negative drug test makes you a cocaine user and part of a drug ring. And to think that they also think it is a sensible decision that a possible semen stain found under the victim's pelvis, wasn't tested. And now Comic Sans - it's like an episode of Mr Bean

.
And that is the proof they do not for a second believe Raffaele was actually involved in Meredith's murder. If they thought there was even the slightest chance it came from Raffaele they would be demanding it be tested because it would be the smoking gun they pretend to search for.

Raffaele is simply fodder to be sacrificed to spite Amanda in some futile attempt to exorcise whatever demons haunt their own minds. Regardless of the outcome, the demons will still be there.

Cody
.

 

[Machiavelli]

So please explain why Mignini used the noise ticket to smear her as a wild party girl but not this crushing evidence of involvement in hard drugs and promiscuous involvement with peddlers. Here is your notice for the crime. A young American who arrives in Italy, lets her hair down and goes completely wild, pissing off her flatmates by hanging out with undesirables (and bringing them home?). Are you saying that in this small town where everybody knows everybody else's business the cops did not have the wits to make something out of this that might resemble actual evidence? (...)

But there is nothing in all this. You try again to derive consequences from absence of things you "expected", but this is climbing on glass and it's baseless.
I've already said, an internal report from police investigation - in Italian police juristictions - is useless as legal document. An administrative sanction instead is usable.
And you should change your wording: "smear" is inappropriate, we are talking about documentation on true events, not about false allegations.
And also, I repeat the concept: this specific piece of evidence, beyond being too late (the first usable document was from 2011) was unnecessary and irrelevant to the prosecution. Tons of evidence of this kind are dropped all the time, on all trials, in staggering amount.

 

[NancyS]

It is a matter of facts that Knox attended and exchanged phone calls with a cocaine dealer, whether you like it or not. And however you like to call this, this is a matter of facts that dconstrued the innocentisti narrative intended to portray Knox as a chacrather to which a meeting and having fun with Rudy Guede or taking part to a drug fueled sex party, would be something totally "implausible" or impossible to imagine. The truth is, a scenario involving Knox partying or meeting with shady charachters at her house, or any scenario of mess involving sexual context and/or drugs, is a context perfectly fit to Knox charachter. Such themes (in addition to things such violent scuffles for money) are actually kinds of things that belonged to the very crowd and environment she used to spend time with.

We're not back to the drug fueled sex game again are we? Only dirty old men think that young woman are up for group sex after a Bacardi breezer and a line of cocaine!

Amanda was at college, of course she would have contact with people that used and dealt drugs. The same evidence could have been constructed against any other young person living in Perugia, including Meredith. I think I had at least 2 people that dealt drugs, just in my corridor of halls when I started university. I know that one of them is a solicitor now, but was full on whistle, white gloves and shirt tucked into his back pocket, back in 1991

 

[Diocletus]

It is a matter of facts that Knox attended and exchanged phone calls with a cocaine dealer,

Where's the evidence of this? The cops didn't have it because its not mentioned in their report.

 

[anglolawyer]

But Antonio Curatolo underwent questionings and cross questionings and he was always consistent, well aware, functioning, remembering and convincing.
Moreover, there is also still no evidence at all nor any report about Curatolo using multiple drugs, except tobacco use.

And yet, when his evidence proves to be irreconcilable with other indicators, like the disco buses, and actually provides an alibi for the accused, it can be used for the limited purpose of falsifying their alibi. In what legal system is such a thing even remotely acceptable?

His drug use is a matter of record, Mach, unless the ISC overturned Hellman's findings. He was a lying, homeless, addicted bum. No wonder the star witness would be such in this crock of ****.

 

[Diocletus]

But Antonio Curatolo underwent questionings and cross questionings and he was always consistent, well aware, functioning, remembering and convincing.
Moreover, there is also still no evidence at all nor any report about Curatolo using multiple drugs, except tobacco use.

Actually, Hellmann laughed the bum out of court and said he wasn't credible. Cassazione actually broke the law by making a ruling on the credibility of this witness, who did not even appear before Cassazione.

 

[acbytesla]

Such agruments by those who believe this is a "fake" are plain idiotic.
The document is written in perfect 'police talk', besides the fact that contains dates and signatures and a huge amounts of detail; it is absolutely not easy to mimic Italian police prose like that, therefore that would be a sophisticated forgery; anyone who is able to produce a forgery of such prose would be obviously able to paste an address in the page heading, so if you attribute this to a work of forgery based on a claim about such a macroscopic feature your argument is just completely inconsistent and stupid.

In fact, you can find tons of docuemnts from Quetura with no address and no phone or fax.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_4347453db967b39036.jpg[/qimg]

Why is it every time you respond you enforce my point? No silly Comic Sans font and this document is signed fully and the name and title clearly printed above the signature.

Also there is very little detail. And one cannot escape the detail in the fax where Amanda's last name is CAPITALIZED. This shows very clearly that
the intent is to emphasize Amanda Knox specifically on something totally unrelated and absurd. It neither enforces the case against Amanda or Federico for that matter. So what is its purpose, other than to smear Amanda Knox. You mention, that the man's phone number is in her phone and yet like Rudy Guede, there is not a s SINGLE call between them. Doesn't sound like this could be Amanda's dealer or her lover if they never communicated with each other. I guess in Italy, you have lots of lovers, drug connections and co-conspirators in murders that never contact each other ever electronically.

As I said, this is about total deniability and no accountability. Wild accusations may be made up and "leaked" to or by the press and there are no ramifications for anyone.

But one thing more that you should consider is the confirmations ex aliunde. This document in fact was already known, and publicly spoken about. It had been quoted already by several Umbrian newspapers in 2011, and the quotes match exactly the text you read in the page published by "Giallo".
Moreover, the press sources provide the names of defence attorneys of the three suspects; and such professionals can be easilly checked out. And also, the pres sources report how Federico Martini was sentenced to 2 years 8 months after entering a plea bargain (actually, he asked to plead guilty but the preliminary judge refused the plea because the proposed penalty was insufficient, and opted for an abbreviated trial).
Names and phone number or addresses are blank just because it is illegal for a newspaper to disseminate names or addresses or ID info about people who are not publicly known, and Giallo magazine obviously wants to be cautious.
And finally there is a report about other criminal facts, involving other people and also mentioning another police office, the Questura of Foligno.
So there is everythig to check and there is really no room for a rational person to claim "fake" or "forgery", unless you take the burden to prove it.

So?? Federico Martini was sentenced to 2 years and 8 months, where is the actual proof that Amanda was really involved with him in any way and what is the relevance? Amanda mentions a first name of a Federico and that is all, I'm sure that there are other Federico's in Perugia who didn't get sentenced for selling cocaine.

The fact that they allude to other names of people that are not likely to talk about it is more of the same un-accountability. What this shows clearly is that it was totally unimportant document for law enforcement and there is no reason for them to create this document except for the purpose of "leaking" to the press a demonizing story about Amanda Knox. Everyone can play innocent Machiavelli, but it is easy to see through the ruse.

Either it was created internally to deliberately deceive the press or it was created externally to do the same thing.

BTW...I'm still waiting to see other COMIC SANS MS letterheads. I haven't yet.

 

[NancyS]

.
And that is the proof they do not for a second believe Raffaele was actually involved in Meredith's murder. If they thought there was even the slightest chance it came from Raffaele they would be demanding it be tested because it would be the smoking gun they pretend to search for.

Raffaele is simply fodder to be sacrificed to spite Amanda in some futile attempt to exorcise whatever demons haunt their own minds. Regardless of the outcome, the demons will still be there.

Cody
.

You can just imagine the conversation

Investigator 1: "we've just found what looks to be a semen stain on a pillow directly under the woman's pelvis, shall we test it"

"Investigator 2: "no no no, don't be silly - it might not even belong to the rapist, it might have been left ages ago and will only confuse things"

Investigator 2: "Wow! That makes like totes sense"

 

[anglolawyer]

But there is nothing in all this. You try again to derive consequences from absence of things you "expected", but this is climbing on glass and it's baseless.
I've already said, an internal report from police investigation - in Italian police juristictions - is useless as legal document. An administrative sanction instead is usable.
And you should change your wording: "smear" is inappropriate, we are talking about documentation on true events, not about false allegations.
And also, I repeat the concept: this specific piece of evidence, beyond being too late (the first usable document was from 2011) was unnecessary and irrelevant to the prosecution. Tons of evidence of this kind are dropped all the time, on all trials, in staggering amount.

I have not suggested the report is evidence in itself. It is evidence of a line of enquiry that might have been expected to produce real evidence usable in court against her. How hard would it be to haul in this Federico guy, offer him tea and cakes (nudge, nudge) and get him to spill the beans on her? Not hard at all. And yet ...

 

[Machiavelli]

So the police were so incompetent that they didn't do hair strand testing

Although Bruce over at IIP seems to be fairly sure that they did - are you saying that this was never done?

Not as far as I know.
If Bruce is sure, he can post the test result.

As for what I know hair test is rarely used in criminal investigation. This is not only because it usually provides information about a rather small array of substances (opioids, cocaine, cannabis) and is unable to detect others (alcohol, ketamine), but above all because results can't be dated.
It is impossible to infer anything but a "past" or potentially a past "habitual" use of a substance, something which is usualy worthless information. In a criminal trial usually you need to focus on circumstances of a specific day. And usually it's not the prosecution the one that has an interest in collecting such unspecific information. These kind of tests on criminal investigations are mostly defensive.
If you intend to apply to enter the armed forces or need some kind of special driving licence, that's another matter.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is a matter of facts that Knox attended and exchanged phone calls with a cocaine dealer, whether you like it or not. And however you like to call this, this is a matter of facts that dconstrued the innocentisti narrative intended to portray Knox as a chacrather to which a meeting and having fun with Rudy Guede or taking part to a drug fueled sex party, would be something totally "implausible" or impossible to imagine. The truth is, a scenario involving Knox partying or meeting with shady charachters at her house, or any scenario of mess involving sexual context and/or drugs, is a context perfectly fit to Knox charachter. Such themes (in addition to things such violent scuffles for money) are actually kinds of things that belonged to the very crowd and environment she used to spend time with.

I see. So by this measure, anyone who (for example) had phone contact with (and the stored mobile number of) the UK PR consultant Max Clifford - who was recently convicted of a large string of sex offences against women - could be written as:

Mr XYZ attended and exchanged phone calls with a serial sexual predator.

It's really getting pathetic, all this nonsense. And it's exposing certain people's "arguments" for what they really are: desperation not to "lose" on the interwebz, and an overwhelming (to the point of irrationality) desire to vilify Knox and Sollecito.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, but this is an "informativa", it is an informal doc (not even an "esposto" or "denuncia"). There are signatures, officers are recognizable, and there might be a third page with a clerks' officer stamp.
Questura often puts no stamp (the stamp is put by the Procura who receives it; but oly if goes throught the Clerk's office).

In other words, there are no real arguments. These are people who need to prove their claim if they think it's forged.

Why do we have to prove anything Machiavelli? Clearly no one from the police, prosecution or PGP side has to prove a damn thing. There is NOTHING about this document that is from honest people being accountable for their actions. They can smear Amanda as they desire with no ramifications. How does one go about disproving it? That is the true beauty of this document. It doesn't allow any one the room to disprove anything. It is perfect for one thing and one thing only. Smearing Amanda Knox. So you need to ask why?

 

[NancyS]

Why is it every time you respond you enforce my point? No silly Comic Sans font and this document is signed fully and the name and title clearly printed above the signature.

Also there is very little detail. And one cannot escape the detail in the fax where Amanda's last name is CAPITALIZED. This shows very clearly that
the intent is to emphasize Amanda Knox specifically on something totally unrelated and absurd. It neither enforces the case against Amanda or Federico for that matter. So what is its purpose, other than to smear Amanda Knox. You mention, that the man's phone number is in her phone and yet like Rudy Guede, there is not a s SINGLE call between them. Doesn't sound like this could be Amanda's dealer or her lover if they never communicated with each other. I guess in Italy, you have lots of lovers, drug connections and co-conspirators in murders that never contact each other ever electronically.

As I said, this is about total deniability and no accountability. Wild accusations may be made up and "leaked" to or by the press and there are no ramifications for anyone.



So?? Federico Martini was sentenced to 2 years and 8 months, where is the actual proof that Amanda was really involved with him in any way and what is the relevance? Amanda mentions a first name of a Federico and that is all, I'm sure that there are other Federico's in Perugia who didn't get sentenced for selling cocaine.

The fact that they allude to other names of people that are not likely to talk about it is more of the same un-accountability. What this shows clearly is that it was totally unimportant document for law enforcement and there is no reason for them to create this document except for the purpose of "leaking" to the press a demonizing story about Amanda Knox. Everyone can play innocent Machiavelli, but it is easy to see through the ruse.

Either it was created internally to deliberately deceive the press or it was created externally to do the same thing.

BTW...I'm still waiting to see other COMIC SANS MS letterheads. I haven't yet.

And it's obvious that this Federico is another man so compelled by the witchy Knox and her sexual magnetism, that he is still protecting her. Surely he would have made another fantastic star witness to prove to everyone what a dirty, slutty witchy bitchy whore, Amanda was.

 

[Machiavelli]

I have not suggested the report is evidence in itself. It is evidence of a line of enquiry that might have been expected to produce real evidence usable in court against her. How hard would it be to haul in this Federico guy, offer him tea and cakes (nudge, nudge) and get him to spill the beans on her? Not hard at all. And yet ...

But that's not true. That wold just hamper the investigation into Federico and his drug ring (an investigation which was not conducted by Mignini, the dominus of that was another prosecutor, I think he was Petrazzini). And it would be impossible to qustion him without lawyer and impossible force him to talk (in fact it as impossible to obtain Guede's testimony), Federico would likely just remain silent. And even if he talked it would be useless, his information would be most likely irrelevant. A total waste of time and money.

 

[carbonjam72]

Could Mignini be held accountable for the failed prosecution of the 'Florence 20'?

But there is nothing in all this. You try again to derive consequences from absence of things you "expected", but this is climbing on glass and it's baseless.
I've already said, an internal report from police investigation - in Italian police juristictions - is useless as legal document. An administrative sanction instead is usable.
And you should change your wording: "smear" is inappropriate, we are talking about documentation on true events, not about false allegations.
And also, I repeat the concept: this specific piece of evidence, beyond being too late (the first usable document was from 2011) was unnecessary and irrelevant to the prosecution. Tons of evidence of this kind are dropped all the time, on all trials, in staggering amount.

Do you believe the Narducci trail of the Monster of Florence crimes is now officially over? Will Spezi and the five other defendants against whom the charges were dismissed in the last few weeks be subjected to any further appeals?

If the 'Narducci Trail' is formally over, does this mean Mignini was mistaken in charging 20 innocent people in Florence for crimes in connection with a 'satanic cult' and involvement in the 'Monster of Florence' crimes?

Would the new laws being debated in Italy over allowing judges who make mistakes to be held liable for damages resulting from their errors, would Mignini be possibly subject to that type of accounting?

Is it foreseeable that Giulaino Mignini could be paying off a civil judgement to Mario Spezi for years into the future?

 

[LondonJohn]

Why supporters seem dumb? Drug use is never interesting per se. You ask why they had blood/drug tests etc. But Knox and Sollecito were arrested! And it was for another crime, not for drug assumption. They had blood tests because they were taken into prison. Drug test can be done if there is a potential relation between drugs and the crime they are accused of, in order to understand the context of a crime (if there is some peculiar long lasting substance like meth derivatives, who knows). But otherwise the police does not investigate personal habits, it's not a matter of interest.

Ummm.... what?! So the authorities didn't have a good reason to do the blood tests for drugs..... then they did..... then they didn't..... then they did......

I repeat: if the police "do not investigate personal habits" and if "blood test(s) can be done if there is a potential relation between drugs and the crime they are accused of", then why were drug tests done on Knox and Sollecito? Because by making this argument you are basically implying that the police must have thought there was a "potential relation between drugs and the crime". Otherwise, by your measure, they wouldn't have done the tests, since they "do not investigate persona habits". Right??

It would be impossible to know.

Nonsense. They could have done a series of hair tests under a court warrant. This would have told them whether - and to what extent - Knox or Sollecito was using a whole manner of different drugs on a timescale that could probably be marked in weeks. So the police and prosecutors could, had they wished, have known exactly what was going round Knox's/Sollecito's system in the weeks before the murder and the week following it. They didn't do those tests though, did they. So now I'm afraid they - and you - have no business making sly allusions to Knox's/Sollecito's alleged (but entirely unsupported) use of cocaine and other hard drugs.

Actually, there is no need to suggest nor prove anything. It is only worth taking note that Knox attended and exchanged phone calls with a cocaine dealer who worked in Perugia center. There is nothing you need to add to this.

Already addressed

 

[NancyS]

Not as far as I know.
If Bruce is sure, he can post the test result.

As for what I know hair test is rarely used in criminal investigation. This is not only because it usually provides information about a rather small array of substances (opioids, cocaine, cannabis) and is unable to detect others (alcohol, ketamine), but above all because results can't be dated.
It is impossible to infer anything but a "past" or potentially a past "habitual" use of a substance, something which is usualy worthless information. In a criminal trial usually you need to focus on circumstances of a specific day. And usually it's not the prosecution the one that has an interest in collecting such unspecific information. These kind of tests on criminal investigations are mostly defensive.
If you intend to apply to enter the armed forces or need some kind of special driving licence, that's another matter.

If no test was done they are obviously incompetent - if they were trying to find evidence to support Mignini's (dirty old man) drug fueled sex game theory, surely any competent police would try to find out whether the accused had been using drugs in the last 90-days.

And it's laughable that they couldn't date drug use, couldn't date semen, but could date DNA - you just couldn't make this stuff up

 

[Machiavelli]

We're not back to the drug fueled sex game again are we? Only dirty old men think that young woman are up for group sex after a Bacardi breezer and a line of cocaine!

Amanda was at college, of course she would have contact with people that used and dealt drugs. The same evidence could have been constructed against any other young person living in Perugia, including Meredith. I think I had at least 2 people that dealt drugs, just in my corridor of halls when I started university. I know that one of them is a solicitor now, but was full on whistle, white gloves and shirt tucked into his back pocket, back in 1991

Indeed you do nothing but confirm what I wrote above. You just confirm, don't you realize?
Besides your objection that young women should not be thought as going after group sex, what you say immediately after is that, instead, all college students should be thought as having a ring of cocaine dealers as friends.

So, look at your cosistency and your "standards": it is not natural for young women to be involved in group sex, no, this is a rel no-no thing, let's never be near to this idea; but instead it is natural for young women to have friends among associate drug dealers (some of which have various kinds of violent criminal records).
How do you make sense of that?

What I say is, having sex with anyone is normal; people have sex with those who they attend; indeed if it's normal for someone to have casual relationships (or "casual sex" as Knox calls it) and also to have a bunch of drug dealers as friends and phone contacts (and also to have a boyfriend who admits to be a frequent drug user), this means it is normal for that person to have relationships (of any nature, sexual or non sexual doesn't really matter) with drug dealers.