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The Metaphysical Consciousness

Donn said:
...the source of all knowledge...
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The source of all knowledge is not any particular knowledge, but it is the natural ability to interact with other phenomena in non-destructive ways, which enables any non-destructive particular knowledge to be expressed in many creative ways that are reinforced by other particular knowledge.

The overall result is complex and rich realm, where uncertainty is its welcome nature, that does not lead to destructive results among phenomena, simply because all phenomena are now tuned with each other by the simplest base-ground of all Laws of Nature.
 
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So, when you are in a calm unchanged state by way of TM practice, you are like the Large Hadron Collider?

You sure could save science a lot of money if you could produce data equivalent to what revealed the Higgs Boson.

(In case you don't know, although with ALL knowledge at your heels this should not happen, the ultimate useful size for a collider is something on the order of a Solar system. You guys could really help if you could do this from a pillow in a living room.)

Again, where are the science papers your advanced members are publishing (in the realms of quantum physics and other sub-atomic disciplines) by their access to this sea of knowledge?

You either have hard results that stand-up to the processes of scientific scepticism, or you are just another religion making virtue out of necessities.
 
PixyMisa said:
That's a contradiction. Self-awareness is a type of thought.
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Self-awareness is directly being aware of the self.

At the level of only thoughts process the best you can get is thinking about the self, which is essentially not the same as directly being aware of the self.
 
Your post pipped mine to the post. I'm slow and the forum is too.

doronshadmi said:
The source of all knowledge is not any particular knowledge, but it is the natural ability to interact with other phenomena in non-destructive ways, which enables any non-destructive particular knowledge to be expressed in many creative ways that are reinforced by other particular knowledge.
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Hardly clear. Are you saying "the source of ALL knowledge" is now not knowledge at all? Then why use the perfectly functional word "knowledge"?

You should say the "source of all interaction", perhaps.

The overall result is complex and rich realm, where uncertainty is its welcome nature, that does not lead to destructive results among phenomena, simply because all phenomena are now tuned with each other by the simplest base-ground of all Laws of Nature.
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And this sounds like Deepak Chopra having an orgasm.
 
Donn said:
Hardly clear. Are you saying "the source of ALL knowledge" is now not knowledge at all? Then why use the perfectly functional word "knowledge"?
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Generally, the source of ALL X is not some X, otherwise it can't be considered as the source of ALL X.

This is an elementary reasoning.
 
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The source of all knowledge would have to be something knowledge-like: a teacher, a library. Naked facts could be called a source, but they're a source for a lot of error too.

So, the source of all knowledge would indicate more and better knowledge.

However, I accept your source for all X point. Given this point, you should not use the word knowledge. Once again it leads to the wrong idea.

What word you should use is now even less clear.

I also doubt that your statements about the source of all knowledge are actually knowledge. I think they are assertions that you have invested in and now cannot question.

If, when in deep TM at that calm place, you cannot bring back accurate knowledge of what you experienced, then you have not learned anything.
You may be able to teach others to meditate, but nothing much comes back out of that state. It's subjectively profound, so is too much cough medicine, but not objectively profound. It's not curing disease or making the world more peaceful, or finding new energy resources.
 
Donn said:
If, when in deep TM at that calm place, you cannot bring back accurate knowledge of what you experienced, then you have not learned anything.
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You are using a very narrow point of view of knowledge.

For example, by practicing TM the body and the mind improve their functionality because of the practice that enables direct awareness of the calm source of all phenomena (physical or mental).

Donn said:
It's not curing disease or making the world more peaceful, or finding new energy resources.
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For more details, please look at http://www.davidlynchfoundation.org/research.html.
 
My definition of knowledge is trying to stay true to what knowledge is. A vague sense of deepity is not knowledge; it's experience and maybe the start of something to know.

Your links all go to vague "studies" on consciousness (my woo sense is tingling) and what I said before, stress and relaxation findings. These are not bad things, they're possibly even very useful for life and wellness, but they are not a profound effulgence of knowledge.

Granted, I took your words under different meanings than you intended. If you used words more carefully, then this would not happen.

For example:
"TM allows .. direct awareness of the calm source of all phenomena (physical or mental)."
Knowledge has become awareness. Thanks, that's better.
Calm source, remains fuzzy. If your TM researchers cannot improve that, it will always mean nothing.
All phenomena, is too wide a net. Are you aware of the motion of electrons or of the quantum fields when under? Are you aware of the facts behind any mystery? How about dark matter, what is it?

If you are aware of the source of physical phenomena, then where is the science that comes from that? Where is the Theory of Everything from Source Principals? (And I'd accept only peer-reviewed and well-duplicated science.)

If all you get from TM is some feeling of unity and a profound experience, why are you making claims about TM's power outside of your head?


For lurkers: http://www.suggestibility.org/scientificValidation.shtml
 
doronshadmi said:
Self-awareness is directly being aware of the self.
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Self-awareness is self-referential information processing, carried out in this case by the brain.

You can't be "directly" aware of the self. That doesn't even mean anything,

At the level of only thoughts process the best you can get is thinking about the self, which is essentially not the same as directly being aware of the self.
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No. You seem to be confusing thought with narrative again.
 
Donn said:
If you are aware of the source of physical phenomena, then where is the science that comes from that? Where is the Theory of Everything from Source Principals? (And I'd accept only peer-reviewed and well-duplicated science.)
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Completely ignoring the links in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10136936&postcount=128 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10136955&postcount=129 will not help you to reinforce your conclusions about the discussed subject.

Donn said:
If all you get from TM is some feeling of unity and a profound experience, why are you making claims about TM's power outside of your head?
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What you say is a direct result of simply ignoring the links that are found in the links of the posts above.

Donn said:
For lurkers: http://www.suggestibility.org/scientificValidation.shtml
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How comes that Joe Kellett's site is your accepted rigorous peer-reviewed and well-duplicated science?

Let's take two examples form his site:
Joe Kellett said:
TM can also actually significantly increase anxiety in some people. This is a well-known phenomenon called "relaxation induced anxiety." (http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~wegner/pdfs/Wegner,Broome, & Blumberg 1997.pdf)
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TM, if it is practiced right, is not involved with any effort including any attempt to be relaxed, and the attempt to be relaxed is the reason of why some people increase their anxiety disorder, according to this article.

Also I did not find any mention of TM in http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~wegner/pdfs/Wegner,Broome, & Blumberg 1997.pdf.

Joe Kellett said:
Poor Tony Nader was just an ordinary guy (an accomplished scientist but he still put his pants on one leg at time) until Mahesh broke his mind to the point that Nader believes all of that about himself.
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Please look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeBUFzP9C1w and decide by yourself how poor is Tony Nader.
 
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doronshadmi said:
Did you or do you practice TM?
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As I've said, it doesn't matter. What you are claiming is self-contradictory.

It doesn't matter what I practice. It doesn't matter what you practice. You're still wrong.

And there's still no such thing as a "higher level of consciousness".
 
Slowvehicle said:
After all that, it really does boil down to, "once you decide to believe as I believe, you will come to understand why you should believe as I believe."

Deepity indeed. "Higher level of" deepity.

..."Quantum" deepity...
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Belief has nothing to do with the discussed subject.

Some analogy:

A: "The taste of a lemon is sour"

B: "I disagree with you".

A: "Did you taste a lemon?"

B: "It does not matter, I still disagree with you"
 
doronshadmi said:
Belief has nothing to do with the discussed subject.

Some analogy:

A: "The taste of a lemon is sour"

B: "I disagree with you".

A: "Did you taste a lemon?"

B: "It does not matter, I still disagree with you"
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another analogy:

A: Tigers are cuddly and nice.

B: I disagree with you. They are vicious and will eat you.

A: Have you ever cuddled a tiger?

B: No, but I have reason to believe tigers are vicious and will eat you.

Direct experience is nice if you can get it, but you can be right without it.
 
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