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Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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one of Ms. Nadeau's approximations

I choose hope, over fear. I believe in truth, over lies. You want people to give in and be afraid. When Raf was led away at the first conviction, his step mother yelled, "courage Raffaele!". Amanda's lawyer told her during the trials; "You must have courage, we will do the rest".
carbonjam72,

Most people heard her say something like "Forza, Raffaele" Barbie Nadeau heard something else that began with the letter "f." I'm sure it was just an innocent mistake on Ms. Nadeau's part...
 
carbonjam72,

Most people heard her say something like "Forza, Raffaele" Barbie Nadeau heard something else that began with the letter "f." I'm sure it was just an innocent mistake on Ms. Nadeau's part...

I believe the word was "forza", translated to "strength", or "courage" in my momentary flow of spontaneous recollection. So not perfectly accurate, but pretty close in the main thrust.

That Nadeau would substitute, "F*** you!", from the mouth of an Italian woman in a state of crisis, purportedly directed to an Italian judge, one can only wonder if either of whom speaks english much less in such vulgarity, is just one more Nadeau-ism, in a long line of similarly 'distinguished' reporting.

These people fascinate me. The Nadeau's, The Vogt's, The Pisa's, The Mignini's. Their depravity intrigues me.
 
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Really ?

It appears to me to sum up the character of the pro innocence campaign in a few pixels. 'A picture is worth ..... ' and all that.

As a matter of interest where did you find the image, it appears to be from the case files & thus not originally in the public domain.

Did you get it directly from the family/friends of Amanda Knox ? or did they just publish it online to a world wide audience to use as they saw fit.

[No doubt images like this are also very popular (in certain quarters) outside the respectable confines of campaigns against miscarriages of justice but that's obviously an unintentional byproduct of the innocence campaign]

I posted on this issue previously – it appears my prescience is on a par with Bruce F's.

I've seen that picture before and I have not ever seen any sooper sekrit pictures from any case file, nor have I ever met or spoken to anyone Knox. I bet you it is in the public domain.
 
Others have said that there was evidence that someone of African descent was involved but I'm not really sure what that was. Was it the couple that said a black man ran into them on the stairs? And when did that couple come forth? I've heard others say that they found hairs that clearly were from an African..but I don't ever remember reading that in any of the documents. But it wouldn't surprise me that racism was involved, at least an unconscious type of racism.


From my understanding there were more than a few people who said they saw him at the bar, but the Swiss professor certainly made a difference for him. Even though they didn't want to believe him either/


No, she's not but neither is Judy Garland, Meg Ryan, Donna Reed, Lea Thompson and countless other women. She is that girl next door which to me is much more attractive than a super model. She has a winning smile and beautiful blue eyes. But this is more than just her being pretty. It is her being pretty a American middle class college girl implicated in a murder in Italy. That is enough and then some.

Really ?

It appears to me to sum up the character of the pro innocence campaign in a few pixels. 'A picture is worth ..... ' and all that.

As a matter of interest where did you find the image, it appears to be from the case files & thus not originally in the public domain.

Did you get it directly from the family/friends of Amanda Knox ? or did they just publish it online to a world wide audience to use as they saw fit.

[No doubt images like this are also very popular (in certain quarters) outside the respectable confines of campaigns against miscarriages of justice but that's obviously an unintentional byproduct of the innocence campaign]

I posted on this issue previously – it appears my prescience is on a par with Bruce F's.

A pretty face and a pretty smile makes it all worthwhile.
 
I believe the word was "forza", translated to "strength", or "courage" in my momentary flow of spontaneous recollection. So not perfectly accurate, but pretty close in the main thrust.

That Nadeau would substitute, "F*** you!", from the mouth of an Italian woman in a state of crisis, purportedly directed to an Italian judge, one can only wonder if either of whom speaks english much less in such vulgarity, is just one more Nadeau-ism, in a long line similarly 'distinguished' reporting.

These people fascinate me. The Nadeau's, The Vogt's, The Pisa's, The Mignini's. Their depravity intrigues me.

I would not blame her for thinking "#$%& you" to the court.
Cameron Todd Willingham did say something very much like that when he was about to be executed.

With Nadeau though, is it anything more than coming up with the best way to make money? Does she actually care about guilt or innocent. I suspect taht she only cares about herself and the money/popularity this case gives her.
 
These people fascinate me. The Nadeau's, The Vogt's, The Pisa's, The Mignini's. Their depravity intrigues me.

Mignini fascinates me to an extent, perhaps in a similar vein as to why some find serial killers interesting, including it would appear Mignini.

The rest though, they're just banal bullies, making a buck by kicking someone when they're down thinking it's perfectly justified because some authority licensed that condemnation. In a sense this case is a sad pathetic corollary of the Milgram experiment.
 
A pretty face and a pretty smile makes it all worthwhile.

For the press, this makes a big difference. A blond haired rich girl like Jon Ben Ramsay is taken from her home, the world is all over it. An African American girl of a poor black immigrant barely makes the classifieds. It is sad but true.
 
Experts Matter.

I did some snipping, too, only have a few responses -

I made some cuts to try to keep it shorter, nothing sinister intended!

CJ:72 - ...but I think Napoleone actually acknowledged the police were familiar with Guede before the murder because of burglary activities in Perugia.

KAO: I've never heard this last bit, (regarding Napoleoni) where did it come from?
CJ72: Pretty sure this is testimony from Napoleone. Maybe someone else has the testimony. But if so, this is relevant to your argument regrading the police & Guede.
KAO: I've heard about this phone call but never confirmed a source for it: do you know where it comes from?

CJ72: Haven't seen who made the call from Perugia, but the polce from Milan I believe were named in Graham's article.

KAO: I think Steve Moore is mistaken on this point. I have defended his argument in these threads and abandoned it because it does not stand scrutiny. By the same measure I shouldn't be criticizing Stefanoni nor any of the other credentialed professionals, but then again I do anyways because credentialism is a logical fallacy, a cousin of the appeal to authority. I've tried to make clear why I disagree and re-reading my last post I realize I'm just repeating myself over and over and not making any impact. I will not trash Steve Moore, I will just say I respectfully disagree, and surrender on this point.

CJ72: This is the response that gets me. You're comparing the ability to question Stefanoni with your ability to question Steve Moore.
We have numerous expert sources discrediting Stefanoni, including the independent court appointed Italian experts. Your opposition to Moore is not remotely as well supported. It's not supported at all, at least that you've shared here.

Even after I found out that Stef had committed perjury, I still wasn't in a position to effectively challenge Stef's DNA work. I thought she was dishonest, and disbeleved what she was offering, but I didn't know it. It's only because knowledgeable posters and practicing professionals, like Dr Mark Waterbury's book 'The Framing of Amanda Knox', among others (Prof Chris H, Diocletes, and others, on these blogs for example), explaining Stef's work and the problems with it, and the reviews on the IIP and mmk.com sites, that I felt I could begin to grasp the inadequacy of Stef's arguments. Yes I could try to hack my way through the literature, but it is the province of experts. It's completely legitimate to ask questions, or to hold off accepting expert arguments until your questions can be answered, but that's not what you're doing here. You're simply choosing to disregard Moore because his conclusions differ from your own.

This is exactly what 'Guilters' do. No matter how many experts tell them they're mistaken, they have no trouble blasting on with discredited theories. Dr Gill isn't convincing to them, because there's "mixed blood and DNA in the bathroom".

It's not a question of anyone having to "surrender". It's a discussion. If you have to give up a point, or defer a point until you can verify, isn't that just being reasonable? I don't want your surrender, I want you to either agree, or to force me off my position because you have a better argument.

It's fine to disagree on theories of what happened, and what the police were up to. But experts matter, and Moore is an expert, whom you've chosen to disregard for no apparent reason.

I'm skipping your other points to keep things short, hope that's ok.
 
Move Over Joseph Smith! Guede, Mignini, and the ISC.

What is it about the pattern of facts regarding the prosecutor and police and Guede prior to the Kercher murder that supports your suspicion that the authorities were protecting Guede in the initial investigatory stages of the murder? Please show me what you are looking at. (snippy-snip-snip)

Moore's chapter in the book; "The Forgotten Killer...", points to Guede's arrest in Milan for a burglary in a nursery, where he had taken a knife from the kitchen. Guede was found with the items stolen from the Perugian law office 2 weeks earlier, with an identical break-in MO to the cottage, a rock through the window, with a metal grating assisted climb up.

Guede was released from Milan, after a call from Perugia to the mIlan police, Guede was on the next train to Perugia, and according to Moore's account, with his backpack and knife.

Moore had worked in Italy for school security, and had contacts in Italy. His investigations caused him to conclude Rudy was likely a police informant.

Bob Graham did an article on Guede about 4 months after the first level conviction, that also suggested that Guede was working for the police and given a pass on numerous robberies in Perugia because of that. This is probably the source of stories, including about the next door neighbor's apartment burning down and her missing gold watch (Guede also had a lady's gold watch when caught in Milan, but that watch disappeared after GUede's release). In Graham's article, Mignini concedes Guede may have been an informant.

Moore, Nencini (in his opinion), and Napoleone in testimony, all claim the police were familiar with Guede before the kercher killing, with Moore and Nencini going so far as to claim the police were familiar with Guede's style of B&E - a rock through the window, followed by a metal grating assisted climb up to a second floor.

At the Kercher crime scene, the police claim to have concluded the break-in was staged almost immediately. All the reasons they gave, suggested to me, they were trying to draw attention away from Guede.

Covering the corpse with a duvet is a female gesture.
Poor choice of window (but guede always used windows that had metal grating underneath to assist with the climb).
glass on top of tossed about clothes (was false, but Guede made a mess in his other burglaries).
(I've forgotten some other points, maybe they'll come back to me. But there are other similarities to Guede's previous burglaries - piles of glass, makes himself at home, carries a knife he brandishes when threatened - all facts the police would have known if they were familiar with and protecting Guede prior to the kercher killing).

The prosecution's refusal to test the broken to dispute the theory the break-in was staged (prosecution had claimed the glass was broken from inside the room, a test on the glass would have settled the question).

Refusing to test (or suppressing) the presumable sperm stain between Meredith's legs. The suppression of human DNA profiles from downstairs, including two samples from a light switch, (almost certainly Guede) falsely claiming they are all cat's blood. (mmk.com)

All the efforts to implicate Knox and Sollecito, including destroying exculpatory evidence, and to make it a group crime, and lessen Guede's involvement - first attempting to draft Lumumba, then substituting Guede when forensics came back and he could no longer be kept out of it. (my conjecture).

But the biggest issue for me is understanding why the Police and MIgnini would want to protect Guede. It's not because Guede is important, or he's doing any important or sensitive work. It's because they screwed up in allowing Guede to remain free to kill Meredith. Without a group crime, Guede alone is responsible. If Guede alone is responsible, then the responsibility for Kercher's death rests wholly with the Italians. The Police, Mignini, the judges, all of them.

In the judicial opinions look at the irrational positions that were taken by different players. Mignini wanted there to be a satanic sex orgy. The judge Micheli wouldn't have it. But he did go with the idea that the break-in was staged, it was a group crime, AK's statement was calumnia and hers - not the police's - fault, and that AK/RS should be held over for trial.

Micheli was also the judge in Mignini's case against 20 people in florence that Michelli would dismiss before trial in 2010. Micheli rejected Mignini's satanic sex claims in Florence, and also in the pre-trial Kercher case. Michelli and Massei didn't support Mignini's satanic sex calims, but they all supported: the staged break-in, the crime committed with others, and the calumnia charge (the police did nothing wrong).

Micheli was Mignini's judicial handler, in so far as his satanic sex cult claims in the Narducci/MOF and Kercher cases. Micheli was the single Italian judge to steer those claims through the courts, and harmonize the results. Mignini was publicly critical in rejecting Micheli's dismissal of his Florence case, he was either interviewed or wrote an editorial to that effect.

For Mignini and the Italian judiciary, Protecting Guede, is protecting themselves. This theory is consistent with the police behavior prior to and on-site at the kercher crime scene, with Mignini's behavior prior to and during the criminal investigation and trial, and the judge's supportive rulings defending people from Mignini's more offensive allegations, to the extent possible.

Micheli delayed writing his motivation for the 2010 florence case for 1 year, it was not released until I believe March 2012 (?), 3 months after the oct, 2011 Hellman acquittal. Michelli's motivation refuting Mignini's claims was over 900 pages. Motivations must normally be written within 90 days.

In March 2013, ISC overturned the Hellman acquittal. But I believe this is also the month they overturned Michelli's ruling dismissing Mignini's florence case against 20 people, Mario Spezi among them. The Florence case was sent back for retrial against Spezi and 5 others, the balance having been dismissed for statute of limitations.

When Spezi had been earlier released from jail, the releasing judge did not in releasing Spezi, deny Mignini's theory of Narducci/MOF and satanic sex cults. The judicial rulings have consistently been careful to not reject Mignini's theories, while at the same time protecting as far as possible, the many people he has been crazy enough to accuse with his crazy theories.

In the last week or two, the remnants of the Florence case were dismissed on the first day of court, all at the request of the prosecutor. Absent an appeal, Mignini's Narducci branch of the MOF investigation is closed. (Guitarri, who was charged with Mignini for abuse of office, has returned to the police force, and was a civil party in the case against Spezi which was dismissed).

Mignini's promotion means he will no longer lead investigations or try cases. He can only sit on appeal cases. Mignini can't appeal the Narducci case, so who else would? Mignini can't start any more witch hunts. The charges for abuse of office against him have been shelved, so the ISC no longer needs to protect Mignini from charges.

Mignini has his promotion, Guitarri is a policeman, the victims of Mignini's Narducci investigation have been saved from prosecution. The Kercher killing suspects (or judicial victims) Knox and Sollecito are literally the last loose ends of the MOF case.

The judges were never serious in the kercher convictions I believe. They were never that dumb, imo. They had an agenda. That agenda has been satisfied. There's no reason to hold onto the unjust convictions any longer, Amanda and Raf have served their purpose. In fact, its riskier and more damaging to them to hold them in the case any longer. It's a world-wide embarrassment, and there's nothing more to be gained be prolonging it. The way I read the tea leaves, Amanda and Raff are headed for exoneration at the earliest opportunity.
 
For the press, this makes a big difference. A blond haired rich girl like Jon Ben Ramsay is taken from her home, the world is all over it. An African American girl of a poor black immigrant barely makes the classifieds. It is sad but true.

I don't think "Rich" is needed, look at the kids in the West Memphis three case.
The kids killed were basically white trash and the defendants were also white trash.
 
I don't think "Rich" is needed, look at the kids in the West Memphis three case.
The kids killed were basically white trash and the defendants were also white trash.


That case took years DF to get any real attention from the media. But yes the color of their skin made a huge difference. If that had happened to three black kids in the South it is highly unlikely that the media would care at all.
 
That case took years DF to get any real attention from the media. But yes the color of their skin made a huge difference. If that had happened to three black kids in the South it is highly unlikely that the media would care at all.

I don't think it is completely the case but I do in part at least agree with you.
 
I don't think it is completely the case but I do in part at least agree with you.

I could be wrong.. The press only care about stories that pique people's interest. I was under the impression that it took years for the West Memphis Three to get enough attention. But even today, it doesn't get the attention that the Knox case has.
 
I could be wrong.. The press only care about stories that pique people's interest. I was under the impression that it took years for the West Memphis Three to get enough attention. But even today, it doesn't get the attention that the Knox case has.

My argument more is that there has been a handful of cases where black kids were killed that have gotten media attention.

There have been more books written about the Knox case with only one good one good one appearing to have been written about the WM3 - Devil's Knot. Blood of Innocents is basically garbage from most reviews. I would say that there are at least three reasonably well written books about the AK/RS case however.
 
My argument more is that there has been a handful of cases where black kids were killed that have gotten media attention.

There have been more books written about the Knox case with only one good one good one appearing to have been written about the WM3 - Devil's Knot. Blood of Innocents is basically garbage from most reviews. I would say that there are at least three reasonably well written books about the AK/RS case however.

Clearly DF, you know a lot more about that case than I do.
 
??? You're aware that the photograph does not show so much as a square mm of "the murder victims (sic) mutilated naked body"?

But while we're on this subject, I presume you have written to pretty much every single broadcaster in the western world, protesting at the airing of the Zapruder film footage of the head shot on JFK? That must be pretty harrowing for the Kennedy family, right? I presume you're equally as "disgusted" at that, right? Because not to be equally disgusted and vocal in your protests would be hypocritical, wouldn't it?

And what about the famous footage of the Vietnamese man being shot in the head with a pistol by a Vietcong soldier? I presume you've also protested at that? That poor man's family must be horrified to think of those photos going round the World, right?

Etc........ Or is your disgust and faux-sanctimony only selective....?



Its an image (silhouetted) of the victims body – from the case file - which has been released into the public domain by IIP. This much is now clear. I had taken Bruce F's earlier statement on this issue at face value – my mistake.
Whether other more explicit images of the victims body are circulating privately [sooper sekrit pictures] among fans of Amanda Knox or indeed may be released at a later date – on this I am agnostic.

As to the rest of your post - What on earth are you talking about LJ ?
The term non sequitur doesn't quite do it justice. The use of this image as an avatar is somehow analogous to the publication of the famous photo of the execution of an NLF member, by the police chief, in Ho Chi Minh City! Presumably that's whats you are referring to.* Or the footage of the Kennedy assassination. Do you really think so ?
And I should write something to someone based on this argument ? I think not.

And nor did I express any outrage or disgust. As I said I thought it's use as an avatar was 'appropriate' in the sense of emblematic. You appear to agree - but for very different reasons.
Its hard to tell – perhaps you were distracted by my missing apostrophe.


*In your version the killer is 'Vietcong' not the victim – another example of the unreliability of human memory perhaps.
 
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Its an image (silhouetted) of the victims body – from the case file - which has been released into the public domain by IIP. This much is now clear. I had taken Bruce F's earlier statement on this issue at face value – my mistake.
Whether other more explicit images of the victims body are circulating privately [sooper sekrit pictures] among fans of Amanda Knox or indeed may be released at a later date – on this I am agnostic.



As to the rest of your post - What on earth are you talking about LJ ?
The term non sequitur doesn't quite do it justice. The use of this image as an avatar is somehow analogous to the publication of the famous photo of the execution of an NLF member, by the police chief, in Ho Chi Minh City! Presumably that's whats you are referring to.* Or the footage of the Kennedy assassination. Do you really think so ?
And I should write something to someone based on this argument ? I think not.


And nor did I express any outrage or disgust. As I said I thought it's use as an avatar was 'appropriate' in the sense of emblematic. You appear to agree - but for very different reasons.
Its hard to tell – perhaps you were distracted by my missing apostrophe.

*In your version the killer is 'Vietcong' not the victim – another example of the unreliability of human memory perhaps.

I don't really care for graphic images of murder either. I am curious about your reaction to the slightly veiled graphic death threats against Amanda made by Grimbal aka Grahame Rhodes? we've seen posted on Facebook and Ground Report?
 
Its an image (silhouetted) of the victims body – from the case file - which has been released into the public domain by IIP. This much is now clear. I had taken Bruce F's earlier statement on this issue at face value – my mistake.
Whether other more explicit images of the victims body are circulating privately [sooper sekrit pictures] among fans of Amanda Knox or indeed may be released at a later date – on this I am agnostic.

As to the rest of your post - What on earth are you talking about LJ ?
The term non sequitur doesn't quite do it justice. The use of this image as an avatar is somehow analogous to the publication of the famous photo of the execution of an NLF member, by the police chief, in Ho Chi Minh City! Presumably that's whats you are referring to.* Or the footage of the Kennedy assassination. Do you really think so ?
And I should write something to someone based on this argument ? I think not.

And nor did I express any outrage or disgust. As I said I thought it's use as an avatar was 'appropriate' in the sense of emblematic. You appear to agree - but for very different reasons.
Its hard to tell – perhaps you were distracted by my missing apostrophe.


*In your version the killer is 'Vietcong' not the victim – another example of the unreliability of human memory perhaps.


Let's just say this, platonov:

Do I find your selective moral posturing at a blanked-out photograph of Kercher's corpse illuminating and telling? Yah, you betcha! ;)


(BTW, well done on googling the photo of the Vietnam shooting incident! I had neither the time nor the inclination to seek out the accuracy of the affiliations of the protagonists, since it was entirely immaterial to the argument that I was making. But well done nonetheless on putting me right :D )
 
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