So why are you saying that people aren't familiar with what he says ?
Merged deliberate obstruction by the CIA of pre-9/11 investigations?
- Thread starter paloalto
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So why are you saying that people aren't familiar with what he says ?
thatsmystory
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How else to explain why documented evidence of obstructed al Qaeda investigations is passed off as nonsense?
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Because you can't use evidence for a crime that had not taken place.
Who needs the weather man when you can make your own very accurate weather forecast 24 hours after the event ?
And what did paloalto say
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thatsmystory
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I am referring to CIA and FBI withholding of info about known all Qaeda operatives before 9/11. Members of Alec Station knew that al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi being in the US was a huge deal.
And would this information have stopped the attacks ?
Come on spit it out, what exactly are you saying ?
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Axxman300
Philosopher
Alec Station turned that information over to the FBI in July. In August they discovered the FBI hadn't moved on the information, so Alec Station took the matter to a higher level in the FBI, and then they started the search. By then it was late August.
The FBI's problem was that they're were not geared for international terror in 2001. While they had a decent record on domestic terror groups they displayed a few times in the 1990s that they were too slow on the switch.
Worse, the FBI and CIA's Bin Laden desks were separate from their CT desks adding an extra layer of bureaucracy.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Add to this the "urgent threat" had no defined time frame. This only became clear after the fact.
The dots are far easier to connect after the event happens. Did the CIA and FBI screw up? Sure. Did they do it for want and purpose? No.
This is where context shows that learning from mistakes is better than blame in a witch hunt.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Some of it has to do with the different ways each agency collects information. Just because the CIA knows something does not mean the FBI can legally use it.
Paloalto's information is not incorrect. The context problem comes when it's blended with laws at that time and expectations by each organisation what "immanent threat" means. The FBI would likely need months to sort out what information the justice department wouldn't throw back at them if they even tried to detain these individuals.
Paloalto can "connect the dots" because he knows the outcome. His problem is, he needs to prove the agencies in question did this to produce this out come.
He's not even at square one.
For the record. I agree with the DOJ when they decided to not make this a witch hunt.
Your statement does not conform to the facts that are known. Sorry for the long post, but for completeness, I wanted to put all of the currently known facts down in one place.
Primarily, from the DOJ IG report, Lawrence Wright's book, Looming Tower, and the Defense Exhibits entered into the Moussaoui trial, we know that:
The CIA moved Tom Wilshire, a high level CIA manage, over to the FBI HQ to be Deputy Chief of the ITOS unit in mid-May, 2001 just after the CIA had received a request from FBI Agent Ali Soufan, asking if the CIA had any information on Walid bin Attash or any al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur. It is now clear that Wilshire was moved over to spy of the FBI Cole bombing investigators and find out what they knew about the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting. Did they know that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at this meeting with Walid bin Attash actually planning the Cole bombing? We know this because as soon as Wilshire got to the FBI ITOS unit, he obtained three photos from the CIA of Khalid al-Mihdhar taken at Kuala Lumpur, and then enlisted FBI IOS Agent Dina Corsi to set up a meeting with Soufan’s own people in the New York FBI field office, to show them these photos to see what they knew about Mihdhar and Hazmi.
Corsi sets up this meeting for June 11, 2001, and passed out the three Kuala Lumpur photos of Mihdhar that Wilshire had obtained from the CIA. At that point Clarke Shannon who was Wilshire’s protégée, when Wilshire was at the CIA bin Laden unit asked FBI Agent Steve Bongardt, and his team, did they recognize anyone in these photos?
Apparently Wilshire did not trust Corsi enough at this time to have her ask this question. Bongardt and his team said they did not know who the people in the photos were. Bongardt then followed up with a question; who are these people and what did they have to do with the Cole bombing? Shannon and Corsi said they could give Bongardt this information due to the wall, which we now know was nothing but a complete fiction. The wall never applied if there was any evidence of a crime and the CIA already knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi had take part in the crime of planning the Cole bombing at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting, and even knew that everyone at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting were al Qaeda terrorists connected to the east Africa bombings.
Shannon and Wilshire both knew that one photo had both Mihdhar and Hazmi in it, that Hazmi was already inside of the US, and that Mihdhar had a US multi-entry visa for the US. At the September 20, 2002 public hearings by the Joint Inquiry Committee, Wilshire, the CIA agent who was hiding behind the screen to hide his identity, stated that the CIA officer present, Clarke Shannon, was not permitted to give any of this information to the FBI agents present unless he had permission from his supervisors, Richard Blee, Cofer Black and George Tenet, and then only if the meeting was set up in order to pass this information to the FBI. But Senator Levin, stated at that hearing that he knew of absolutely no law, rule or even reasonable explanation of why the information of Mihdhar and Hazmi could not have been given to the FBI agents that were at that meeting.
Incredibly, Wilshire is admitting to a massive Federal criminal conspiracy by the CIA right at that hearing to withhold material information from an ongoing criminal investigation into the Cole bombing, the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, with bin Attash, the mastermind of this attack, that had taken place at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting.
On June 12, 2001, the CIA learns that the person directing the huge al Qaeda terrorist attack just about to take place inside of the US was Khalid Sheik Mohammed, and that Mohammed was recruiting many al Qaeda terrorists to be sent into the US in the summer of 2001, to link up with other al Qaeda terrorists already inside of the US, who the CIA knew were Nawaf al-Hazmi and possibly Khalid al-Mihdhar who had a multi-entry visa to travel to the US. This information goes to Richard Blee, head of the CIA CTC Rendition unit and then to Black and Tenet. They all are clearly aware of the Bojinka plot by KSM to highjack many large airliners and fly these into the WTC towers, the Pentagon, the US Capitol building, and perhaps other US landmarks. They were also clearly aware that Khalid Sheik Mohammed had been photographed at the Kuala Lumpur meeting while he stayed right at the condominium where Mihdhar and Hazmi also stayed.
On July 5, 2001 Wilshire sends email back to the CIA with his conclusions that the people at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting, Mihdhar and Hazmi, are connected to the massive number of warnings the CIA is receiving about a terrorist attack.
On July 13, 2001, Wilshire sends email back to his CTC mangers, Blee, and Black, and states that he has finally found the cable that places Khallad, Walid bin Attash, at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting, with Mihdhar and Hazmi, and that bin Attash is major league killer directly connected to the east Africa bombings and the Cole bombing. Wilshire asks his CIA managers for permission to give this information to the FBI (Cole bombing investigators). July 13, 2001 is only three days after Blee, Back and Tenet described in an extremely urgent meeting right in the White House, to Condoleezza Rice, John Hadley, and Richard Clarke, an imminent and massive al Qaeda terrorist attack likely to take place inside of the US that will kill many Americans. At this point, CIA managers, Blee, Black and Tenet know full well that by withholding this information from the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing, these FBI investigators would be unable to start any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi since they would not have proof they needed that these terrorists had committed a crime.
July 23, 2001 Wilshire again sends a email request back to Blee, Black, and Tenet, and asks what has happened to his request to transfer the information from the Kuala Lumpur meeting to the FBI (Cole bombing investigators) and then indicates specially that Khalid al-Mihdhar would be found at the location of next big al Qaeda terrorists attack. It is also clear that Wilshire is secretly taking orders from the CIA when he is ostensibly suppose to be working for the FBI. In fact the DOJ IG report describes his role at the FBI is to provide CIA intelligence information to FBI criminal investigations. It is therefore ironic that he does just the opposite and makes sure critical information is criminally withheld from FBI criminal investigations.
Wilshire is never given permission to send this Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI. On August 22, 2001, less than one month later Margaret Gillespie, a FBI agent working at the CIA bin Laden unit, after reviewing the information from the Kuala Lumpur meeting, finds out from the INS that both Mihdhar and Hazmi are now inside of the US. She calls Corsi who says this information should be given to Tom Wilshire, incredible the one person at the FBI HQ most responsible for withholding the Mihdhar and Hazmi information from the Cole bombing investigators. Wilshire, when told Mihdhar and Hazmi are now inside of the US, knows that these terrorists are inside of the US only in order to take part in the massive al Qaeda terrorist attack that both the FBI HQ and the CIA had been getting massive warnings about since April 2001.
Wilshire and Corsi realize that Gillespie, in her naiveté, and her ignorance of this huge CIA and FBI HQ’s criminal conspiracy to hide the Kuala Lumpur information from the FBI, has now directly connected via the INS, the names of Mihdhar and Hazmi to the FBI HQ and to the CIA, and know they are now forced to mount some sort of an investigation to prevent everyone at the CIA and FBI HQ from going to prison for life once the huge al Qaeda terrorist attack takes place for having done nothing with this information. Wilshire instructs Corsi to contact Crag Donnachie at the FBI New York office, to request that he immediately start an intelligence investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. As soon as Donnachie tells Corsi he will start a intelligence investigation, she immediately emails Wilshire and tells him that an intelligence investigation will take place. Both Wilshire and Corsi are aware that the FBI OIPR will rarely allow a criminal and an intelligence investigation to take place for the same target at the same time, and know that a intelligence investigation will keep Bongardt from starting any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. Just after this meeting, Gillespie takes that information that Midhar and Hazmi are inside of the US, back to the CIA, where this information immediately goes to Blee, Black and Tenet and to many other people at the CIA.
Tenet finds out one day later, on August 23, 2001, that the FBI criminal investigation for Zacarias Moussaoui, a person thought by the FBI Minneapolis field office was a terrorists trying to learn how to fly a Boing 747, without even a pilot’s license, has been blocked by the FBI ITOS unit refusal to allow even a request for the Minneapolis FBI agents to go to the OIPR for a search warrant for Moussaoui’s duffel bag and computer. This is the very same unit where Tenet knows he has placed his spy inside of the FBI. The FBI Minneapolis field office is completely unaware that there are people from the CIA inside of the FBI ITOS unit, who have been ordered to sabotage FBI criminal investigations of al Qaeda terrorists found inside of the US by withholding critical information that the CIA had from Kuala Lumpur.
Corsi gives the information on Mihdhar and Hazmi to her boss, Rod Middleton, on August 23, 2001. His reaction to this horrific information is, “AH ****”.
On August 24, 2001 Tenet has an secret and urgent 6 hour long meeting with President Bush at the Bush’s, Crawford, Texas ranch. No one knows what Tenet told the President, since he told the 9/11 Commission on April 14, 2004 that he had not talked to the president in all of August 2001, but we now know that Tenet knew on August 24, 2001, that:
A huge al Qaeda terrorists attack was about to take place inside of the US, that it would involved many hijacked commercial aircraft flown into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and the IUS Capitol
That thousands of Americans would be killed in this attack, many who were working at theses WTC towers..
That Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al Hazmi, would be on one of the planes used in this attack.
That the FBI HQ already had a way to get Mihdhar’s credit card number since the CIA knew from the INS that Mihdhar had flown into the US on Saudi Arabian Airlines.
Since the terrorists were going after the WTC towers and the US Capitol, thus attack would most likely not take place until sometime shortly after Labor day since Congress was in recess until after Labor Day and many people at the WTC Tower would be gone on vacation until after Labor day.
On August 28, 2001, Corsi’s EC to start an intelligence investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi goes to the New York FBI field office, to Craig Donnachie, in the FBI New York Intelligence unit. He sends this to his boss John Liguori, who thinks this EC connects both Mihdhar and Hazmi to people connected o the Cole bombing and sends this EC to Cole bombing FBI Agent Steve Bongardt.
Bongardt calls immediately Corsi to urgently request that is investigation be given to him, but Corsi refuses his request and told Bongardt that he has to destroy her EC since the NSA has forbidden FBI criminal agents from having a NSA cable inside of her EC on Mihdhar and Hazmi. Her boss, Rod Middleton is also on the phone, as well as Tom Wilshire, and they tell Bongardt he can have no part of any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. But the NSA had already approved Corsi’s request the day before on August 27, 2001, to allow her to transfer this cable to the FBI criminal agents in New York City. (see DE 448, Moussaoui trial). Bongardt tells Corsi that these al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in an al Qaeda terrorists attack. He further says that since he can see no link between this NSA information and any FISA warrant, he see no reason why he should be denied this investigation based on this NSA cable in her EC and asks Corsi to get an opinion from the NSLU, the lawyers at FBI HQ on this.
On August 29, 2001, Corsi calls Bongardt and tells him that the lawyer she has connected, who we now know was Sherri Sabol, ruled that he can have no part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, and that if found, Bongardt cannot be even be present during any interview of him. But page 538, footnote 81 of the 9/11 Commission report says that Sabol told Corsi, that since the NSA information had no connection to any FISA warrant, Bongardt could take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi and if Corsi was still confused she could go to the NSA herself and get a release, unaware that Corsi had already gotten a release the day before, to turn the NSA Mihdhar and Hazmi information over to Bongardt and his team.
Corsi sent email back to Bongardt on August 29, 2001, and says that if at such time as information is developed of a substantial Federal crime (by Mihdhar and Hazmi), that information will be turned over for a follow up criminal investigation. But we know from page 301 of the DOJ IG report, that Corsi knew by at least August 22, 2001, it is even possible she knew by May 27, 2001, that the CIA had a photo of Walid bin Attash at the al Qaeda planning Kuala Lumpur meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi where the Cole bombing had been planned. So six days before Corsi and Middleton shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi she already knew these al Qaeda terrorists have committed the substantial Federal crime of planning the Cole bombing, and even further knew they were connected to the east African bombings.
One day later on August 30, 2001, the CIA sends the Kuala Lumpur photo of bin Attash and the information that he had been at Kuala Lumpur at the al Qaeda planning meeting with Mihdhar and Hazmi, planning the Cole bombing to Corsi’s boss, Rod Middleton. This is two weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11, still enough time to have allowed Bongardt to continue his criminal investigation to find and stop both Mihdhar and Hazmi before the attacks on 9/11.
On September 5, 2001, Robert Fuller, the inexperienced FBI intelligence agent given the task to find Mihdhar and Hazmi calls Corsi to ask her permission to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines to get Mihdhar’s credit card number. He tells Corsi that his investigation of Mihdhar has completely stalled without this information. (See DE 650, Moussaoui trial). She inexplicable refuses to allow Fuller to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines to get this number, even though she knows his investigation will most likely go nowhere without this information. His investigation in fact stalls out and goes nowhere by September 11, 2001.
George Tenet stated after the attacks on 9/11 that Mihdhar's and Hazmi’s credit cards were used to buy 10 tickets for the hijackers on 9/11.
These are the very simple facts now found in the official US government documents on the 9/11 attacks. You can’t wish these facts away, you can’t make up your own facts, and you can’t pretend this information does not exist. Almost 3000 people were brutally murdered on 9/11, and this information points directly at people at the CIA, people in the very highest levels of the Bush administration and to agents and managers at FBI HQ that had been corrupted by the CIA for intentionally, deliberately and knowingly allowing the attacks on 9/11 to take place.
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DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
It actually does. Notice I used the word "some". Some of the other reasons were, stupid in-fighting between agencies and egos. This becomes clear in hind-sight but, in order to prove a conspiracy you need to show these people did this intentionally to cause this outcome. It's no secret these guys screwed up. The hitch is that was not the intent. You want a conspiracy, you need to prove that. (no one has to date and it's un-likely they ever will find that connection).
You've already done this many times.
For curiosity. Do you think these people did this to cause this event and do you think this proves it?
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Iamafalser
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What evidence/testimony do you have to support this allegation? Please be specific.
tsig
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Then the rabbit turned red and we knew.
thatsmystory
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What was the intent of obstructing the Cole investigation? What was the point of giving the White House urgent briefings while continuing to conceal info about two al Qaeda guys who were known at the time to be major threats?
The hindsight argument is not based on fact. It's based on an unwillingness to look at disturbing, bizarre conduct. I've posted the link on this site from 9/11 Commission legal counsel John Farmer in which he admits he doesn't know what happened in regard to al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi. The point being the 9/11 Commission never explained what happened.
The US government story doesn't add up. Nobody in the US government has ever had the decency to explain to the public what they were doing.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Like I said, time for you to prove it. Why fight with me about it? I've told you what I think.
Get to work. You guys are the laziest bunch there is. Is this not important enough for you to see your justice done?
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thatsmystory
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The CIA supervisor is presumably Tom Wilshire. This is the same person who realized that associates of bin-Attash would likely be involved in the next al Qaeda attack. Wilshire knew they were associated with bin-Attash by way of the Malaysia meeting. The obvious question-what on earth was Wilshire doing? Why were FBI agents following his orders even though by doing so they obstructed the USS Cole investigation?
As Paloalto's research notes there was no legal basis to exclude the criminal side agents from involvement in the investigation. NSLU attorney Sherry Sabol said she never gave the advice that the investigation had to be intel side only. FBI General Counsel Larry Parkinson told the 9/11 Commission that "he would be shocked" if the NSLU told Corsi that the criminal side agents couldn't be involved in the investigation.
There is no hindsight. People at Alec Station and the FBI UBLU acted in a bizarre manner before 9/11.
thatsmystory
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DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
I highlighted a few things where actually proof might be helpful.
Again, why take this here (to us)? Could it be because you also know your case is not strong? None of this research is original.
What do you hope to accomplish here? Are you looking for someone to actually connect these dots with evidence for you?
If you guys investigated Watergate, Nixon would have been a full term president.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Are you convinced these individuals did this in order to cause the events of 9/11?
Why are people not willing to accept the nature of these huge institutions/bureaucracies.... that they can run efficient and handle information... Add to that all sorts of layers of decision makers... bosses protecting their turf and their jobs and you have the formula for FUBAR. Seems to me more like they were incapable of coherent coordinated action and were essentially caught with their pants down and covered up this fact. No one want to admit that we spend countless billions on national security and most of it simply wasted. Bloated bureaucracies will do it every time...
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
This is exactly why it was decided early on that these investigations were not going to become a political witch hunt only to end up with no progress and a scape-goat or two.
Unless it was shown that someone deliberately acted in their interest that compromised the national interest, progress for change would take precedence. There is zero evidence the US government or anyone in it's ranks supported this attack.
The problems have not been solved but, I think it's a bit better.