Proof of Immortality II

[John Jones]

I skipped from page 3 to this page, and it's literally the exact same argument being repeated. [...].

Don't forget that part 1 of this was over 7,000 posts long.

 

[Butter!]

Oh yes, I know. I printed them all out and am currently using them as wallpaper for my Crazy Room.

Unfortunately, the demons who live in there (Heartbreaker, Nervewrecker and Meansucker) have complained that, while crazy, the subject matter contained therein is FAR too repetitive to really flush out a proper Crazy Room ambiance.

So now I have to go dig a hole and sit in it again, until I learn my lesson. And it's all Jabba's fault.

 

[Jabba]

So there is also no set of potential batches of brown ale from which to draw a new one.

- Good. We're on the same page.
- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

 

[Giordano]

xt,
- I am currently trying to show its relevancy in my slow dialog with Dave.
- What was your counterexample?

Slow? Ha ha. Given you claim to be on the older side, I hope you will get to it with some urgency. Or give us the forum name and avatar of the reincarnated being you intend to become, so we will recognize that it is you and be able to continue this slow dialog.

By the way: exactly what parts of you are parts of the "self" that you believe will be reincarnated? So we can recognize you later.

 

[Akhenaten]

Dave,
- Yeah. That being the case, there is no set of potential SELVES from which to draw new SELVES.

You don't say.

 

[godless dave]

- Good. We're on the same page.
- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

Then each new batch of brown ale is brand new, comes out of nowhere, and is created on the spot?

I'm going out of town for a couple days. I may check in tomorrow if our hotel has wifi.

 

[Giordano]

- Good. We're on the same page.
- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

Still? Either change your theory to reflect what everyone else has told you, or explain, with evidence, why they are wrong.

 

[Akhenaten]

So there is also no set of potential batches of brown ale from which to draw a new one.

- Good. We're on the same page.

No. Not now, not ever.

The only way you maintain the illusion that this is true is by creating a seemingly endless parade of straw LCPs.

- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

For what it's worth (precious little) this is the exact opposite of immortality.

 

[Akhenaten]

Then each new batch of brown ale is brand new, comes out of nowhere, and is created on the spot?

I'm going to try this line of reasoning out with my Publican and insist that the obvious corollary is that beer should be free forever.

I'm going out of town for a couple days. I may check in tomorrow if our hotel has wifi.

Why not make an exact copy of yourself before you go and simply continue posting from home as normal?

 

[Slowvehicle]

- Good. We're on the same page.
- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

Good Afternoon, Mr. Savage!

In response, I say you have tried this before, and the answers are still "no".

Each self is an emergent property of a particular neurosystem.

No self "comes out of nowhere"; each is, in fact, an emergent property of a particular neurosystem, shaped by genetics and the environment. There is no "nowhere" for the "SELF" to "come out of".

"SELVES" are not "created"; each emerges as a property of a particular neurosystem.

All three of your statements are not only still incorrect, but are still incorrect in the same way they were the last time(s) you took a flyer on them.

Do consider dropping this, and presenting your evidence for the existence of hte "soul" and its "immortality", instead.

 

[John Jones]

- Good. We're on the same page.
- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

Have you already forgotten what a self/Self/SELF is? It's an emergent property of a functioning neurosystem.

Why is it necessary to repeatedly explain this to you?

 

[Mojo]

- Good. We're on the same page.

You are on page 8; Dave was on page 7.

 

[pakeha]

Dave,
- Yeah. That being the case, there is no set of potential SELVES from which to draw new SELVES.

No, of course not.

- Good. We're on the same page.
- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

No, Jabba.
Whatever makes you think an emergent property of a functioning neurosystem comes out of nowhere?

 

[xtifr]

xt,
- I am currently trying to show its relevancy in my slow dialog with Dave.

The fact that Dave keeps pointing you at my comments should suggest that Dave and I are basically on the same page. (Unlike you and Dave.)

If you really want to show its relevance, you should just show it, instead of trying to inch, step-by-step, towards it.

- What was your counterexample?

It was right there in the post you quoted from. Again: the copy immediately replaces the original.

There are a bunch more counterexamples that involve teleportation, but copy-immediately-replaces-the-original is the simplest and most straightforward counterexample.

- Good. We're on the same page.

No, you're not on the same page with Dave, and the important distinction between the view he and I share, and your view, is highlighted below:

- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

"[C]omes out of nowhere" is false. It comes out of the new brain. (In the case where you create a new brain.) It no more "comes out of nowhere" than the new legs do. (And there's no pool of legs, in case you were wondering. )

I'll say it again, though it's been said so many times that it's becoming clear you either don't understand, or are willfully ignoring the fact: consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. And "SELF" is a feature of consciousness.

If you are running when you're perfectly copied, the copy will be running too. That new running is brand new, comes out of the new legs (not out of nowhere), and is created on the spot. There's still a finite number of potential runnings. Because there's a finite number of potential legs.

SELF is to brain as RUNNING is to legs!
SELF is to brain as RUNNING is to legs!
SELF is to brain as RUNNING is to legs!

Does saying it three times, à la Lewis Carroll, help it get through?

(Oh, and there's no pool of runnings either. Is there a "biochemical recipe" for running? Answer that, and I'll tell you the answer for SELVES.)

 

[Toontown]

Oh yes, I know. I printed them all out and am currently using them as wallpaper for my Crazy Room.

Unfortunately, the demons who live in there (Heartbreaker, Nervewrecker and Meansucker) have complained that, while crazy, the subject matter contained therein is FAR too repetitive to really flush out a proper Crazy Room ambiance.

So now I have to go dig a hole and sit in it again, until I learn my lesson. And it's all Jabba's fault.

For your information, all the good parts of the thread are in AAH. I largely agree with you on the picked-over remains of it.

 

[John Jones]

For your information, all the good parts of the thread are in AAH.

Maybe you should take this to FMF?

 

[Loss Leader]

- Good. We're on the same page.
- But that being the case, each new SELF is brand new, comes out of nowhere, is created on the spot.

NOTHING comes out of NOWHERE.

Everything within the universe has a cause. You are the result of a long chain of causes. You, right at this moment, were caused in part by the you from five minutes ago. At this moment you are in front of your computer. You are there because five minutes ago you left te kitchen and walked over. That person in the kitchen is gone forever, but that does not mean that your current self came from nowhere. You came from the kitchen.

 

[John Jones]

Mr Savage,

Are you ever going to get to a point of discussion which doesn't require you to misrepresent, twist, and distort what other people have said?

 

[Akhenaten]

Mr Savage,

Are you ever going to get to a point of discussion which doesn't require you to misrepresent, twist, and distort what other people have said?

1/eventually.

 

[godless dave]

I should add that if you look at the ingredients for beer, you won't see any alcohol, esters, or carbon dioxide. And yet those are all in the finished product. One might say they have no prior representation.