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[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

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Actually, I sympthatize with Humes Fork, and just to show it, I will here come with evidence that the whole of Christianity is an evil religion, that is just as good as his picture of that tweet:

video of those evil, evil Christians.

As you can see in this irrefutable piece of evidence, every single Christian in the world are obviously oppressing people through their main weapons, fear and surprise. There's no denying it after seeing that video.

And to anyone that nevertheless still tries to deny this: Your constant mockery of comfy chairs and your complete lack of empathy for them is disgusting to watch. How can you live with yourself?
 
Hawk one said:
Actually, I sympthatize with Humes Fork, and just to show it, I will here come with evidence that the whole of Christianity is an evil religion, that is just as good as his picture of that tweet:

video of those evil, evil Christians.

As you can see in this irrefutable piece of evidence, every single Christian in the world are obviously oppressing people through their main weapons, fear and surprise. There's no denying it after seeing that video.

And to anyone that nevertheless still tries to deny this: Your constant mockery of comfy chairs and your complete lack of empathy for them is disgusting to watch. How can you live with yourself?
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But I have never said that all Muslims is evil. A'isha and Chaos certainly want me to say that, but I haven't. You who claim so are either ignorant or lying.

It's remarkable that some people are utterly incapable of differentiating between criticism of a religion and hatred and bigotry against every single person in some way associated with that religion. It is as if you want to blurry the lines between them. Which I think you want to...
 
Dcdrac said:
yes it should be a discussion about the faults of all religions and not a diatribe against one of them.

for the record I do not believe in a deity of any kind also I do not believe in using catch all nostrums about one faith to cast whole groups of people in a bad light simply because I do not accept their faith.

To present Islam as one homogenous block of beliefs, denies history and is deeply dishonest.

Show me the true agenda.
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All Abrahamic religions have their problems and this is a thing basically no one here disagree. Yet islam is usually far worse than the other Abrahamic religions and this the real problem. Even if some people (too many) discard the mountain of evidence against islam along these lines (usually on ideological, multicultural, grounds) the facts are still there, we deal with theological. educational and institutional 'defects' of islam on a scale unseen in other religions which prevented a thorough assimilation of the ideas of Enlightenment in this religion (in spite of centuries of exposure to Modernity now).

The fact that there is no liberal islam on a par with liberal Christianity is definitely not a fluke and the cause should be sought primarily in the basics of islam. The postmodernist / multiculturalist evasion tactics (there are many versions of islam equally valid, there is no 'true' islam, we cannot even come close to establishing rationally what the islam taught and lived by Muhammad is and so on) do not work, in reality Salafism or Khomeini's shia islam are closer to 'undiluted' islam (taught and lived by Muhammad*). Finally it's not so easy as you think, islam do not fit the 'buffet' model of religion where people choose freely and easily what they like and ignore what they do not. Blame the fundamentals of islam for that.

Not lastly (for some jump directly to such labels) arguing against islam along these lines is 'islamophobia' and 'bigotry' only in the rich imagination of some, advocating the appearance of a liberal islam on a par with liberal Christianity (a process validated by History, even the quran should not be considered inerrant, leaving thus the doors wide open for the absolutely necessary big changes) is in reality our best bet to solve the problems with islam.

Add the theological factor into equation and the solution to the problem may be within easy reach, ignore it totally and a never ending series of ISISs, Talibans and other 'ghazi warriors' (who have always existed, usually popular among mainstream muslims) is very plausible. Secular problems have secular solutions but problems with very important religious dimensions cannot be solved durably without addressing the religious aspects. Sometime history will do justice to such views, even if today the 'background assumptions' are not sufficiently prepared for their widespread adoption. Let's only hope that we will not have to fight wars to keep freedom alive.


*if one chooses to cherry pick the historical accounts considered reliable by the muslims about Muhammad then the best solution is to conclude that he did not exist at all (not that he was benign or that we cannot know in many situations what was his stance and so on)
 
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Humes fork said:
It's remarkable that some people are utterly incapable of differentiating between criticism of a religion and hatred and bigotry against every single person in some way associated with that religion. It is as if you want to blurry the lines between them. Which I think you want to...
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Have you ever come across someone who, no matter how emphatically they claim to being just "anti-Zionist", you're convinced they're anti-Semitic?
 
metacristi said:
All Abrahamic religions have their problems and this is a thing basically no one here disagree. Yet islam is usually far worse than the other Abrahamic religions and this the real problem. Even if some people (too many) discard the mountain of evidence against islam along these lines (usually on ideological, multicultural, grounds) the facts are still there, we deal with theological. educational and institutional 'defects' of islam on a scale unseen in other religions which prevented a thorough assimilation of the ideas of Enlightenment in this religion (in spite of centuries of exposure to Modernity now).
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No, Islam is not a special case. You've been proven wrong on this before. There are plenty of abuses and atrocities committed by other religions, some in modern times. Imagine that.

metacristi said:
The fact that there is no liberal islam on a par with liberal Christianity is definitely not a fluke and the cause should be sought primarily in the basics of islam. The postmodernist / multiculturalist evasion tactics (there are many versions of islam equally valid, there is no 'true' islam, we cannot even come close to establishing rationally what the islam taught and lived by Muhammad is and so on) do not work, in reality Salafism or Khomeini's shia islam are closer to 'undiluted' islam (taught and lived by Muhammad*). Finally it's not so easy as you think, islam do not fit the 'buffet' model of religion where people choose freely and easily what they like and ignore what they do not. Blame the fundamentals of islam for that.
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All of this has already been shown to be false. You're just repeating the same assertions ad nauseum, without a single reference to back them up.

metacristi said:
Not lastly (for some jump directly to such labels) arguing against islam along these lines is 'islamophobia' and 'bigotry' only in the rich imagination of some, advocating the appearance of a liberal islam on a par with liberal Christianity (a process validated by History, even the quran should not be considered inerrant, leaving thus the doors wide open for the absolutely necessary big changes) is in reality our best bet to solve the problems with islam.
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A phobia is an irrational fear. It's not rational to generalize, argue for guilt by association, or ignore evidence that doesn't fit your preconceived biases.

metacristi said:
Add the theological factor into equation and the solution to the problem may be within easy reach, ignore it totally and a never ending series of ISISs, Talibans and other 'ghazi warriors' (who have always existed, usually popular among mainstream muslims) is very plausible. Secular problems have secular solutions but problems with very important religious dimensions cannot be solved durably without addressing the religious aspects. Sometime history will do justice to such views, even if today the 'background assumptions' are not sufficiently prepared for their widespread adoption. Let's only hope that we will not have to fight wars to keep freedom alive.
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Ah, the "all Muslims are terrorists" argument.

metacristi said:
*if one chooses to cherry pick the historical accounts considered reliable by the muslims about Muhammad then the best solution is to conclude that he did not exist at all (not that he was benign or that we cannot know in many situations what was his stance and so on)
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So what?
 
Humes fork said:
But I have never said that all Muslims is evil. A'isha and Chaos certainly want me to say that, but I haven't. You who claim so are either ignorant or lying.

It's remarkable that some people are utterly incapable of differentiating between criticism of a religion and hatred and bigotry against every single person in some way associated with that religion. It is as if you want to blurry the lines between them. Which I think you want to...
Click to expand...
The person who put up that a fake troll tweet as evidence that Islam is an evil religion is complaining about not differentiating between criticisism and bigotry?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Seriously, read the post again and try to get the actual point of it. Hint: It's about how incredibly stupid it is to use a fake troll account as evidence of anything.

A'isha said:
No, you've just said that the non-evil ones are disobeying their Prophet and committing a great sin against Islam, that's all.
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Humes fork said:
So will Hawk one now apologize?
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I have done nothing to apologise for. I've shown a mirror of what you've really been doing, no matter what you claim. You may not have said those things outright, but the implication is so clear, that my satire post only making this a bit clearer is nothing for which I have to be ashamed. And I can tell you right now, I'll never apologise for showing the bigot what his bigotry really looks like to everyone else.

BUT, just because I'm a really nice guy, I'll reword it so that you cannot possibly have any complaints about it:

Actually, I sympthatize with Humes Fork, and just to show it, I will here come with evidence that the whole of Christianity is an evil religion, that is just as good as his picture of that tweet:

Video of evil, evil Christianity.

As you can see in this irrefutable piece of evidence, Christianity is obviously oppressing people through their main weapons, fear and surprise. There's no denying it after seeing that video.

And to anyone that nevertheless still tries to deny this: Your constant mockery of comfy chairs and your complete lack of empathy for them is disgusting to watch. How can you live with yourself?

Happy now, Humes Fork? As you can see, I am now clearly not saying that all Christians are evil, I'm just "criticising a religion", using the same type of evidence that you do when you say you are "criticising a religion".
 
Hawk one said:
I've shown a mirror of what you've really been doing, no matter what you claim.
Click to expand...

Try to comprehend the following. I know it is very difficult, but at least give it a try.

1. I have never stated that all Muslims are evil.
2. Therefore, a post saying that all Christians are evil is not a mirror of anything I have been doing.

If you wish to dispute this, please begin with #1. Show me where I say that all Muslims are evil. Failure to do so indicates that you are not interested in a serious discussion.

Otherwise, retract and apologize.
 
Humes fork said:
Try to comprehend the following. I know it is very difficult, but at least give it a try.

1. I have never stated that all Muslims are evil.
2. Therefore, a post saying that all Christians are evil is not a mirror of anything I have been doing.
Click to expand...

I think you ought to check your own lack-of-comprehension glass house before you start throwing around that particular stone:

Hawk one said:
Happy now, Humes Fork? As you can see, I am now clearly not saying that all Christians are evil, I'm just "criticising a religion", using the same type of evidence that you do when you say you are "criticising a religion".
Click to expand...

By the way, did you not know that the twitter account you were quoting was a fake troll account, or did you simply not care? Just curious.
 
A'isha said:
I think you ought to check your own lack-of-comprehension glass house before you start throwing around that particular stone:
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Can you then show where I declare hatred for all Muslims? Or will you dodge it?

A'isha said:
By the way, did you not know that the twitter account you were quoting was a fake troll account, or did you simply not care? Just curious.
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I was unaware that it was a troll account (however that is defined). But it doesn't matter because I found interesting only the tweet I reposted here. I did not intend to endorse the entire account.
 
abaddon said:
It would certainly render the 2022 World Cup problematic.
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Indeed. Good thing Qataris take and keep pictures of their families all the time.

Qataris, who generally follow the same interpretation of Islam as most Saudis, don't hang pictures of people on walls or have framed photos on their desk but they do own pictures. Friends show me pictures all the time, and I've even seen wedding albums. Heck, they've even let me email pictures of them to others or post them online (I always ask for permission).

That's why I was surprised to see Humes Fork's excerpt about someone who was apparently wahhabist yet destroyed all the family pictures. Seems odd because that doesn't appear to be common practice here.
 
Humes fork said:
Can you then show where I declare hatred for all Muslims? Or will you dodge it?
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Hawk one covers that in his post. How long are you going to continue to dodge his post?

I was unaware that it was a troll account (however that is defined).
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By being registered and operated by someone who, despite claiming to be a Muslim woman from Yemen, is none of those things, and whose tweets are deliberately inflammatory and insulting.

But it doesn't matter because I found interesting only the tweet I reposted here. I did not intend to endorse the entire account.
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The fact that you zeroed in on that one tweet and found it "interesting" and came here to post it without doing even the slightest bit of investigation as to whether it was legitimate in any way, shape, or form, solely because it conformed to your prejudices, is the problem.

It's the thing that Hawk one is highlighting with his post using the Monty Python clip: you are so determined to find things that "reveal" how terrible Muslims are (and rush here to challenge us with them, as if it were some kind of triumphant "gotcha") that you swallowed a fake tweet from a troll account hook, line, and sinker because it so appealed to your preconceived biases that you didn't even bother to check on who posted that tweet or why. All that mattered, apparently, was that at a superficial glance it looked like something that you expected, that you wanted, Muslims to say, and the reality that the tweet came from a troll running a blatantly fake twitter account was, in your own words when it was pointed out to you, an "irrelevant red herring".

That's not skepticism, Humes fork. That's the opposite of skepticism, the very kind of "religious thinking" that you claimed to be decrying when you posted that fake tweet. You don't get to put a self-righteous quote like the one in your signature, and then pull the above nonsense while blatantly ignoring actual truth and facts and refusing to admit or even acknowledge your error.

Not without getting called on it, at least.
 
A'isha said:
Hawk one covers that in his post. How long are you going to continue to dodge his post?

By being registered and operated by someone who, despite claiming to be a Muslim woman from Yemen, is none of those things, and whose tweets are deliberately inflammatory and insulting.

The fact that you zeroed in on that one tweet and found it "interesting" and came here to post it without doing even the slightest bit of investigation as to whether it was legitimate in any way, shape, or form, solely because it conformed to your prejudices, is the problem.

It's the thing that Hawk one is highlighting with his post using the Monty Python clip: you are so determined to find things that "reveal" how terrible Muslims are (and rush here to challenge us with them, as if it were some kind of triumphant "gotcha") that you swallowed a fake tweet from a troll account hook, line, and sinker because it so appealed to your preconceived biases that you didn't even bother to check on who posted that tweet or why. All that mattered, apparently, was that at a superficial glance it looked like something that you expected, that you wanted, Muslims to say, and the reality that the tweet came from a troll running a blatantly fake twitter account was, in your own words when it was pointed out to you, an "irrelevant red herring".

That's not skepticism, Humes fork. That's the opposite of skepticism, the very kind of "religious thinking" that you claimed to be decrying when you posted that fake tweet. You don't get to put a self-righteous quote like the one in your signature, and then pull the above nonsense while blatantly ignoring actual truth and facts and refusing to admit or even acknowledge your error.

Not without getting called on it, at least.
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Now, now--not everyone can be as smart or as educated as Humes fork is, at least according to Humes fork...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10087154#post10087154
 
Humes fork said:
Try to comprehend the following. I know it is very difficult, but at least give it a try.

1. I have never stated that all Muslims are evil.
2. Therefore, a post saying that all Christians are evil is not a mirror of anything I have been doing.

If you wish to dispute this, please begin with #1. Show me where I say that all Muslims are evil. Failure to do so indicates that you are not interested in a serious discussion.

Otherwise, retract and apologize.
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You don't state it directly, but the implication is there, due to your lack of nuanced arguments. Every time you post an "interesting tweet" about an atrocity or abuse in the Islamic world, you fail to specify that only a few Muslims actually behave this way or believe in these things. You simply say "Muslims" as if to generalize these horrific acts or extremist interpretations to Muslims everywhere. You have also implied that you believe the Islamic world could be cured of all its ills if they threw away their religion and converted to atheism, which simply isn't true. There are multiple underlying causes, such as poverty, war, lack of education, and lack of employment, that contribute to the behaviors of these Muslim extremists. If the religion were to go away tonight, the problems would still be there tomorrow.
 
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