Third Party Spending in Ontario Election: View from the Other Side

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I'll see your Walkerton and raise you Orange, E Health scandal, gas plant scandal and best of all, the Ontario health tax.

Ontarians just admitted you can lie to them all you want, waste their tax dollars at will and not only will they vote you back in but give you a majority as well.

You know what they say, people get the government they deserve.

I'll take all that vs homeless people starving in the streets.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I'm always amazed at the amount of flack the Harris Conservatives get over Walkerton. The main culprits over Walkerton were the Koebel brothers, who were incompetent (and sometimes drunk) at their job, and who lied in order to attempt to cover up the problems.

Was the Harris government responsible for hiring the Koebels? Nope... they had been working for years before the Harris government election... they were still messing around on the job under the previous Liberal and NDP governments. Did the private labs that were used (due to the conservative privatization activities) mess up? Nope... they found (and reported) the contamination to the city... who did nothing with the information.

Now, the conservatives aren't completely blameless; for example they did make a mistake by not requiring that tests for positive contamination didn't go to the health department, but had the Koebel's been competent, they would have taken the proper action.

And I do believe the city of Walkerton requested provincial funding to upgrade their plant before the contamination but were turned down. But again... while their equipment was outdated, it would still have done the job if not run by idiots.

The message people seem to be taking away from the incident is "boo! Privatization is bad!". The message they should be taking away is "Perhaps government employees aren't as great as they like to portray themselves".

And here's something to think about... Lets say Walkerton didn't happen... The Koebel brothers might still be employed at the water plant. And with the trend of the Liberals to give out massive pay increases, they might have gotten more pay raises over the past few years than you did, despite being incompetent at their job.

Mike Harris and his crackpot economics decimated the Ministry of the Environment.

 

[Segnosaur]

I'll take all that vs homeless people starving in the streets.

First of all, you are assuming that the Liberals or NDP would be more effective in handling the homeless situation. Despite having a left-leaning Liberal government, Ontario still has problems with poverty.

From: http://www.cpj.ca/files/docs/poverty-trends-scorecard.pdf
Ontario experienced the second highest increase in poverty between 2007 and 2009 (compared to other provinces).
(Note: I'm not completely comfortable with this source... so if you have alternative statistics bring it on.)

The Liberals themselves cut funding to help the homeless. (See: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...kely_to_leave_more_people_without_a_roof.html)
And, if memory serves me right, the biggest increase in homelessness actually occurred under Bob Rae's NDP government.

Lastly, keep in mind that under the Liberals, Ontario has gone from a 'have' to 'have-not' status. Under Bob Rae's NDP government, Ontario's unemployment rate increased. Lets pretend that somehow one of these left-wing parties actually managed to improve the poverty situation (evidence shows that they are unlikely to, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...) Do you think its worth increasing the number of people on unemployment insurance/welfare, and having our economy suffer?

Mike Harris and his crackpot economics decimated the Ministry of the Environment.

It is true that there were cutbacks at the Ministry of the environment during Harris' time in office, however:

- As I pointed out, those cutbacks were largely irrelevant... It was the incompetent employees who were largely responsible. Even former Liberal David Peterson supposedly said it "could have happened under any premier's watch". (Remember, the Koebel brothers had been falsifying reports for years, even under NDP and Liberal governments who didn't catch them, even before the Harris government cutbacks.)

- While you may run around condemning Harris for cutbacks, keep in mind that he had to deal with a drop in federal transfers from the Chretien government. Perhaps if Chretien were more interested in funding things that people needed (you know, like health care) and less interested spending billions on ad-scam and the $billion gun registry, he could have kept provincial transfers higher and perhaps Harris wouldn't have had to cut as much.

As for Harris' "Crackpot economics", during his time in office, Ontario was one of the most successful provinces. The economy grew strongly, the deficit was either eliminated or cut back (depending on the accounting principles used), all this while having to deal with fewer federal transfers. (Yet they still managed to cut provincial taxes.)

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

First of all, you are assuming that the Liberals or NDP would be more effective in handling the homeless situation. Despite having a left-leaning Liberal government, Ontario still has problems with poverty.

From: http://www.cpj.ca/files/docs/poverty-trends-scorecard.pdf
Ontario experienced the second highest increase in poverty between 2007 and 2009 (compared to other provinces).
(Note: I'm not completely comfortable with this source... so if you have alternative statistics bring it on.)

The Liberals themselves cut funding to help the homeless. (See: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...kely_to_leave_more_people_without_a_roof.html)
And, if memory serves me right, the biggest increase in homelessness actually occurred under Bob Rae's NDP government.

Lastly, keep in mind that under the Liberals, Ontario has gone from a 'have' to 'have-not' status. Under Bob Rae's NDP government, Ontario's unemployment rate increased. Lets pretend that somehow one of these left-wing parties actually managed to improve the poverty situation (evidence shows that they are unlikely to, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...) Do you think its worth increasing the number of people on unemployment insurance/welfare, and having our economy suffer?


It is true that there were cutbacks at the Ministry of the environment during Harris' time in office, however:

- As I pointed out, those cutbacks were largely irrelevant... It was the incompetent employees who were largely responsible. Even former Liberal David Peterson supposedly said it "could have happened under any premier's watch". (Remember, the Koebel brothers had been falsifying reports for years, even under NDP and Liberal governments who didn't catch them, even before the Harris government cutbacks.)

- While you may run around condemning Harris for cutbacks, keep in mind that he had to deal with a drop in federal transfers from the Chretien government. Perhaps if Chretien were more interested in funding things that people needed (you know, like health care) and less interested spending billions on ad-scam and the $billion gun registry, he could have kept provincial transfers higher and perhaps Harris wouldn't have had to cut as much.

As for Harris' "Crackpot economics", during his time in office, Ontario was one of the most successful provinces. The economy grew strongly, the deficit was either eliminated or cut back (depending on the accounting principles used), all this while having to deal with fewer federal transfers. (Yet they still managed to cut provincial taxes.)

Since we are playing "let's pretend".

Let's pretend that the measure of success of a government is purely economic.

Let's pretend that Ontario is in complete control of its economy. Let's pretend the World economy has no impact, let's pretend that NAFA is a huge success, let's pretend that Ontario is receiving a fair portion of the total national taxes, let's pretend that Mr Harper does not have a mean spirited attitude towards Ontario.

Let's pretend that laissez faire capitalism is by far the best and fairest system in the Whole Wide World.

And then we can get rid of the useless unions and roll back all social progress to the 19th century before child labour laws, before restriction on maximum working hours, before minimum wage. Eliminate Big Government. Then we shall have Heaven on Earth.

 

[ProBonoShill]

I'll take all that vs homeless people starving in the streets.

It's nice to know you condone blatant government corruption.

Oh and unless criminal malfeasance was involved, no one has starved to death in this province for quite some time.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

It's nice to know you condone blatant government corruption.

Oh and unless criminal malfeasance was involved, no one has starved to death in this province for quite some time.

If it is criminal, the courts will decide.

Not yet, but only thanks to food banks.

http://www.foodbankscanada.ca/getme...-Ontario-2012-Report--FINAL.pdf.aspx?ext=.pdf

What sort of society is it where people cannot afford to feed their children?

Why. It's Heaven on Earth. Thank you Premier Mike.

 

[ProBonoShill]

If it is criminal, the courts will decide.

Not yet, but only thanks to food banks.

http://www.foodbankscanada.ca/getme...-Ontario-2012-Report--FINAL.pdf.aspx?ext=.pdf

What sort of society is it where people cannot afford to feed their children?

Why. It's Heaven on Earth. Thank you Premier Mike.

Criminal has nothing to do with it. This government has wasted billions of tax payer dollars and have admitted as much.
The same government also lied to voters telling them they would not pay one cent more in taxes, then proceeded to hit Ontarians with the largest tax hike in the history of the province.

You don't think Food Banks existed before Mike Harris?

The Liberals have now been in power for 10+ years and Foods Banks are more prevalent than ever before, why is that?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Criminal has nothing to do with it. This government has wasted billions of tax payer dollars and have admitted as much.
The same government also lied to voters telling them they would not pay one cent more in taxes, then proceeded to hit Ontarians with the largest tax hike in the history of the province.

You don't think Food Banks existed before Mike Harris?

The Liberals have now been in power for 10+ years and Foods Banks are more prevalent than ever before, why is that?

The economy is not under the control of any provincial government.

 

[Segnosaur]

.

Before I go any further... I have to say... wow. I always find it so amazing how people criticizing the conservatives seem to take such a rather dismissive attitude, and then when challenged, their arguments are totally devoid of content.

Early on I was asked why I'd consider voting conservative. After a post containing multiple arguments, what do I get? A non-sequitur (re:Walkerton). When I debunk that, what do I get in return? A post full of straw men. It almost seems like reading posts from some teenager quoting some socialist pamphlet, and who now considers themselves a political expert.

Perhaps there may be valid reasons to vote NDP/Liberal/Green/etc., but you'd never realize that from reading your posts.

Since we are playing "let's pretend".

Let's pretend that the measure of success of a government is purely economic.

Why would we pretend that?

I never claimed that the economy is the only thing of interest.

In fact if you go back and look at my earlier posts (where you asked why I'd support the conservatives), I mentioned education and energy policy as 2 of the reasons.

Of course, the economy is important... but keep a few things in mind:

- Yes there are other issues: helping the poor, health care, education, national defense (if you're talking federally). But those programs are not run for free.... If you destroy your economy, you'll have a hard time paying for those social programs

- Since all you seem to be doing is bashing conservatives, I'm assuming you think the left wing parties would automatically be better at handling all those non-economic issues. But then, you'd probably be wrong. Just throwing money at problems does not always make them go away.

Let's pretend that Ontario is in complete control of its economy.

Again, why would we do that?

I never claimed that any province, city, country, or continent is in "complete control". However, a province, city, or country can influence things... They can take a bad situation worse (e.g. a province under the influence of a global recession might see financial hardships deepened), or they can improve stability to even out economic swings.

Let's pretend that laissez faire capitalism is by far the best and fairest system in the Whole Wide World.

Wait a second... does that mean you're totally against all capitalism? Heck, not even the NDP would consider going that far.

The fact is, all the major political parties in Canada and Ontario believe in a mix of private and public systems. Is your view of politics so warped and one-sided that anyone who considers spending even a relatively small cut to the government is automatically seen as desiring the return of the robber barons and sweat shops?

And then we can get rid of the useless unions and roll back all social progress to the 19th century

Straw man.

Again, why must you assume that anyone who thinks "You know, public servants shouldn't be getting paid thousands more than private sector people doing the same job" is automatically wanting to roll back progress to the 19th century?

It wasn't the plan of the Hudak conservatives to return Ontario to the 19th century. Heck, from what I've seen they weren't even planning on returning Ontario to the time of Harris. (I remember reading that, had the conservatives got into power and implemented their cuts, you'd still have as many public servants as there were several years into Dalton McGuinty's tenure.)

Not yet, but only thanks to food banks.
What sort of society is it where people cannot afford to feed their children?
Why. It's Heaven on Earth. Thank you Premier Mike.

The Liberals have been in power for over a decade. If the Liberals were so capable of handling poverty, why have they not done so?

Perhaps the problem is a bit more complex than "Lets hire more government workers".

Oh, and by the way... you seem to have missed my earlier post when I pointed our that the Ontario Liberal party had a worse record on poverty than Saskatchewan (run by a Conservative) and Newfoundland (also run by a Conservative) at the start of the recession.